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1947-era Covered Hopper Question

Ralph <cnjlv@...>
 

Please excuse a question that may be very sophmoric as well as being burried somewhere within the message archives, but I was wondering if someone could enlighten me to the use of covered hoppers in food stuff service, circa 1947.
I realize that covered hoppers go back to the late 1930's, but were typically used to haul chemicals and cement, not grains, as they have been almost exclusively since the 1960's.
The issue is this - I have a friend who wants to model a brewery circa 1947, so would ANY of the incoming grain/malt/barley have been delivered in covered hoppers, or would it have all still been transported via boxcars? The RR in question is the NYC, the locale New York City.

Thank you,

Ralph Heiss
S. Plainfield, NJ
cinderandeight@...
 

Guys,
The PRR provided cast iron "loading instruction" plates on the sides
of their covered hoppers up to 1953 (stamped plates there after). In my den
I have one such plate off a class H33 covered hopper (built 4/53).
The commodities listed on it are: Pulverized coal, soda ash light, soda
ash dense, hydraulic lime, cement, sand dry, sodium nitrate, feldspar, and
dolomite. The first five listed items were to be loaded fully, while the
later ones had specified distances from the hatch at which to stop loading.
My experience was that all PRR covered hoppers into the mid-1950's loaded
only mineral loads. I think the loading of food stuffs into covered hoppers
was facilitated by the introduction of modern linings for the cars which
could be cleaned and sanitized.
Rich Burg
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ralph Heiss wrote:
Please excuse a question that may be very sophmoric as well as being burried somewhere within the message archives, but I was wondering if someone could enlighten me to the use of covered hoppers in food stuff service, circa 1947.
I realize that covered hoppers go back to the late 1930's, but were typically used to haul chemicals and cement, not grains, as they have been almost exclusively since the 1960's.
The issue is this - I have a friend who wants to model a brewery circa 1947, so would ANY of the incoming grain/malt/barley have been delivered in covered hoppers, or would it have all still been transported via boxcars? The RR in question is the NYC, the locale New York City.
A perfectly reasonable question, Ralph, and though I don't know about NYC specifically, the early covered hoppers were VERY dominantly assigned to cement service. Some cars in chemical service were evident by about 1950, but they were then a small minority. I would seriously doubt grain/malt service in covered hoppers in 1947, with box cars of bagged product far more likely. Some bulk shipping in box cars took place too, but that was primarily in the harvest-to- elevator shipping.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Ralph;

I cannot tell you with certainty, but for comparison, the PRR did not haul
food products in covered hoppers until much later, and only then, in giant
new covered hoppers like the PS-2CD.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:51 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question



Please excuse a question that may be very sophmoric as well as being burried
somewhere within the message archives, but I was wondering if someone could
enlighten me to the use of covered hoppers in food stuff service, circa 1947.

I realize that covered hoppers go back to the late 1930's, but were typically
used to haul chemicals and cement, not grains, as they have been almost
exclusively since the 1960's.
The issue is this - I have a friend who wants to model a brewery circa 1947,
so would ANY of the incoming grain/malt/barley have been delivered in covered
hoppers, or would it have all still been transported via boxcars? The RR in
question is the NYC, the locale New York City.

Thank you,

Ralph Heiss
S. Plainfield, NJ
Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Elden,
 
         I need to ask at this point >>> in 1942, Scully yard on the Panhandle had 6 tracks added on to for the purpose of inspecting grain shipments before passing through Pitts. area. If I understand you, the PRR did not use their equipment for this purpose. Now I question what cars were used in the grain business from 1942 to 1954. Off line covered hoppers appear to be the right idea; eg: SP, GN, UP, and midwest RR's. Anyone care to enlighten me, and others who may still wonder.
 
Fred Freitas

--- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil> wrote:


From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:12 PM


 



Ralph;

I cannot tell you with certainty, but for comparison, the PRR did not haul
food products in covered hoppers until much later, and only then, in giant
new covered hoppers like the PS-2CD.

Elden Gatwood


-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:51 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question

Please excuse a question that may be very sophmoric as well as being burried
somewhere within the message archives, but I was wondering if someone could
enlighten me to the use of covered hoppers in food stuff service, circa 1947.

I realize that covered hoppers go back to the late 1930's, but were typically
used to haul chemicals and cement, not grains, as they have been almost
exclusively since the 1960's.
The issue is this - I have a friend who wants to model a brewery circa 1947,
so would ANY of the incoming grain/malt/barley have been delivered in covered
hoppers, or would it have all still been transported via boxcars? The RR in
question is the NYC, the locale New York City.

Thank you,

Ralph Heiss
S. Plainfield, NJ
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Richard Townsend
 

Didn't Anheuser Busch have some early (pre-WW II) covered hoppers?


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Fred Freitas wrote:
I need to ask at this point >>> in 1942, Scully yard on the Panhandle had 6 tracks added on to for the purpose of inspecting grain shipments before passing through Pitts. area. If I understand you, the PRR did not use their equipment for this purpose. Now I question what cars were used in the grain business from 1942 to 1954. Off line covered hoppers appear to be the right idea; eg: SP, GN, UP, and midwest RR's. Anyone care to enlighten me, and others who may still wonder.
I'd say box cars in 1942. SP had no covered hoppers yet, GN had only 5, etc.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history
Ralph <cnjlv@...>
 

Gentlemen -

Thank you for all your well researched and helpful responses thus far, both on and off the group. I appreciate the help in getting an answer so as to realistically operate the layout.

Ralph Heiss
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Sorry, Fred, I did not add that grain on the PRR was shipped in box cars. I
have several photos of PRR cars with grain doors fitted, in that service.
PRR also used box cars, fitted with temporary grain doors, and extra sealing,
for flour, also. I have color photos into the 60's of PRR box cars covered
in white flour. PRR did not start using covered hoppers in grain, barley
malt, flour, etc, until the late 50's, or 1960 (the latter I think) when they
bought some Airslides, and then in 1964 or so, they bought a bunch of high
cube covered hoppers specifically for grain, and other food products. The
H30, H32, H33 and H34 were all bought for cement, sand, chemical additives,
and other non-food products.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Frederick Freitas
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:43 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question



Elden,

I need to ask at this point >>> in 1942, Scully yard on the
Panhandle had 6 tracks added on to for the purpose of inspecting grain
shipments before passing through Pitts. area. If I understand you, the PRR
did not use their equipment for this purpose. Now I question what cars were
used in the grain business from 1942 to 1954. Off line covered hoppers appear
to be the right idea; eg: SP, GN, UP, and midwest RR's. Anyone care to
enlighten me, and others who may still wonder.

Fred Freitas

--- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil
<mailto:elden.j.gatwood%40usace.army.mil> > wrote:

From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil
<mailto:elden.j.gatwood%40usace.army.mil> >
Subject: RE: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:12 PM



Ralph;

I cannot tell you with certainty, but for comparison, the PRR did not haul
food products in covered hoppers until much later, and only then, in giant
new covered hoppers like the PS-2CD.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
Ralph
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:51 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question

Please excuse a question that may be very sophmoric as well as being burried
somewhere within the message archives, but I was wondering if someone could
enlighten me to the use of covered hoppers in food stuff service, circa 1947.

I realize that covered hoppers go back to the late 1930's, but were typically
used to haul chemicals and cement, not grains, as they have been almost
exclusively since the 1960's.
The issue is this - I have a friend who wants to model a brewery circa 1947,
so would ANY of the incoming grain/malt/barley have been delivered in covered
hoppers, or would it have all still been transported via boxcars? The RR in
question is the NYC, the locale New York City.

Thank you,

Ralph Heiss
S. Plainfield, NJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Elden,and List
 
            That is what prompted the question; I had been of the belief that grains were shipped in box cars at that time, and wanted to make sure I didn't miss some others carriers cars. Thanks for the quick answers.
 
Fred Freitas

--- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil> wrote:


From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 3:11 PM


 



Sorry, Fred, I did not add that grain on the PRR was shipped in box cars. I
have several photos of PRR cars with grain doors fitted, in that service.
PRR also used box cars, fitted with temporary grain doors, and extra sealing,
for flour, also. I have color photos into the 60's of PRR box cars covered
in white flour. PRR did not start using covered hoppers in grain, barley
malt, flour, etc, until the late 50's, or 1960 (the latter I think) when they
bought some Airslides, and then in 1964 or so, they bought a bunch of high
cube covered hoppers specifically for grain, and other food products. The
H30, H32, H33 and H34 were all bought for cement, sand, chemical additives,
and other non-food products.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
Frederick Freitas
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:43 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question

Elden,

I need to ask at this point >>> in 1942, Scully yard on the
Panhandle had 6 tracks added on to for the purpose of inspecting grain
shipments before passing through Pitts. area. If I understand you, the PRR
did not use their equipment for this purpose. Now I question what cars were
used in the grain business from 1942 to 1954. Off line covered hoppers appear
to be the right idea; eg: SP, GN, UP, and midwest RR's. Anyone care to
enlighten me, and others who may still wonder.

Fred Freitas

--- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@ usace.army. mil
<mailto:elden. j.gatwood% 40usace.army. mil> > wrote:

From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@ usace.army. mil
<mailto:elden. j.gatwood% 40usace.army. mil> >
Subject: RE: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com <mailto:STMFC% 40yahoogroups. com>
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:12 PM

Ralph;

I cannot tell you with certainty, but for comparison, the PRR did not haul
food products in covered hoppers until much later, and only then, in giant
new covered hoppers like the PS-2CD.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
Ralph
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:51 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question

Please excuse a question that may be very sophmoric as well as being burried
somewhere within the message archives, but I was wondering if someone could
enlighten me to the use of covered hoppers in food stuff service, circa 1947.

I realize that covered hoppers go back to the late 1930's, but were typically
used to haul chemicals and cement, not grains, as they have been almost
exclusively since the 1960's.
The issue is this - I have a friend who wants to model a brewery circa 1947,
so would ANY of the incoming grain/malt/barley have been delivered in covered
hoppers, or would it have all still been transported via boxcars? The RR in
question is the NYC, the locale New York City.

Thank you,

Ralph Heiss
S. Plainfield, NJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tim O'Connor
 

Yes, but brewers use mineral materials for filtering -- for
example, carbon, or diatomaceous earth. I doubt those hoppers
were used for rice, barley malt or hops.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/4/2009 02:43 PM Wednesday, you wrote:
Didn't Anheuser Busch have some early (pre-WW II) covered hoppers?


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
Greg Martin
 

Tim,

And to a lesser degree anthracite coal, finely grounds and screed ed, was also used a filtration for water.

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question







Yes, but brewers use mineral materials for filtering -- for
example, carbon, or diatomaceous earth. I doubt those hoppers
were used for rice, barley malt or hops.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/4/2009 02:43 PM Wednesday, you wrote:
Didn't Anheuser Busch have some early (pre-WW II) covered hoppers?


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tim O'Connor
 

Greg

That's what I meant by "carbon"... in its many forms. :-)
Someone else mentioned pulverized coal -- that sounds like
a filter material.

Tim

At 11/4/2009 04:06 PM Wednesday, you wrote:

Tim,

And to a lesser degree anthracite coal, finely grounds and screed ed, was also used a filtration for water.

Greg Martin


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] 1947-era Covered Hopper Question







Yes, but brewers use mineral materials for filtering -- for
example, carbon, or diatomaceous earth. I doubt those hoppers
were used for rice, barley malt or hops.

Tim O'Connor
David North <davenorth@...>
 

<Now I question what cars were
<used in the grain business from 1942 to 1954. Off line covered hoppers
appear
<to be the right idea; eg: SP, GN, UP, and midwest RR's. Anyone care to
<enlighten me, and others who may still wonder.
<Fred Freitas







Fred and Ralph,

Santa Fe fitted roofs with loading hatches to a number of 2, 3 & 4 bay
hoppers in 1945 for grain loading.

A total of 150 cars were so modified.

So covered hoppers were used in the immediate post war period for this
purpose, at least on the Santa Fe.



However, I'd guess that the majority of grain shipments on the ATSF were
still made by boxcars and as far as I know, covered hoppers weren't used in
any quantity until the PS 2893cft 3 bay arrived in the mid 50s.

Happy to be corrected, but I'd feel that modelling any quantity of these
roofed hoppers would be modelling the unusual in the late 40s period.

Can't comment on other roads.

Cheers

Dave North
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