Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (GN, WP Interchange At Bieber)


acacd_ssp
 

Allen,
  Thanks for the reply.  Since you are researching Bieber in 1947, I'll assume we share somewhat of a common interest in that place and time.

  My freelanced railroad (Burney, Redding & Western) interchanges with both the GN and the WP in Bieber.  I have some questions, which you may have some information about, regarding the coordination (or lack thereof) of the WP and GN arrivals and departures in Bieber.  Did the bulk of the GN train become the WP and vice versa?  If so, why are there twice as many WP trains as GN (I recognize the timetables are ofset by 2.5 years, which might explain the whole difference)?  I'd like to see a GN timetable from 1947 or a WP timetable from 1950 for Bieber to come arrivals and departures.

  I have an original WP Western Division Timetable (34) dated June 1, 1947.  I also have a copy of a GN Klamath Division Timetable (10) dated January 1, 1950.

  The WP timetable lists four "regular / scheduled" trains per day arriving or departing Bieber:
 1) Eastward 2nd Class #154 Western Pacific Fast Freight arriving 2:00 AM
 2) Eastward 2nd Class #178 Western Pacific Fast Freight arriving 10:40 AM
 3) Westward 2nd Class #153 Western Pacific Fast Freight departing 12:30 AM
 4) Westward 2nd Class #177 Western Pacific Fast Freight departing 1:00 PM

 The GN timetable lists two "regular / scheduled" trains per day arriving or departing Bieber:
 1) Eastward 2nd Class #386 departing 3:00 AM
 2) Westward 2nd Class #387 arriving 6:55 PM

 Again, I'm curious how the cars were routed / forwarded through Bieber to/from the GN to/from the WP.

 Thanks in advance.

Al Daumann
 
 

________________________________

From: Allen Rueter <allen_282@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, November 16, 2009 8:15:16 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

Al,
I'm working on transcribing what some refer to as a jumbo book, it is a log of cars received and forwarded at Bieber 1947, Oct-Dec.
The log book is ordered by the last two digits, with in a pair of pages it is ordered by the last 3 digits of the car number.
so *02 covers cars where the last two digits are 02, clear as mud?

If you look in the files section, you will some detailed ones that end in 00
( http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/STMFC/ files/gn% 20wp%20station% 20log%20bieber% 20/ )
--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Al Daumann <sp-blackwidow@ sbcglobal. net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 11:19:02 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

Greetings,
I'm new to the group, does this refer to an earlier discussion? I model a freelanced road that interchanges with the GN at Bieber (Nubieber) in the late 1940s. I'm always looking for new / addtional information.

What does *02 cars stand for?

Al Daumann

____________ _________ _________ __
From: allen_282 <allen_282@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 8:31:00 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

cars numbers ending with 02 at Bieber 4th quarter out of 259
GN - 40 - tho 2 cars make up 30 entries, with 2-5 day cycle times.
ATsf - 29
Rg/DRG - 28
SP - 17
PFE - 14
Pa/PRR - 12
BO - 8
CBQ - 7
NYC - 7
UTLX -7
IC - 5
RI - 5
Sou - 5
UP - 5
WP - 5
TCX -4
CO - 3
CSVX - 3 (all same car)
DLW - 3
FGE - 3
GATX - 3
LN - 3
Milw - 3
REX - 3
SCCX - 3
strays - ACL,ART,BLE, CGW,CEI,CNW, CRP,CRR, Erie, HTCX, MP, NH, NKP,
NP, NS, NW, PM, Pmcky (SF)Rd , SAL, SLSF, UCR, Wab, WLE

Allen Rueter
while watching the Packers win :)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Daumann wrote:
Did the bulk of the GN train become the WP and vice versa? If so, why are there twice as many WP trains as GN . . .
One possibility is that the GN trains were twice as long (or twice as heavy), the WP line south of Bieber being more challenging than the GN line north of it.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 17, 2009, at 12:25 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Al Daumann wrote:
Did the bulk of the GN train become the WP and vice versa? If so,
why are there twice as many WP trains as GN . . .
One possibility is that the GN trains were twice as long (or
twice as heavy), the WP line south of Bieber being more challenging
than the GN line north of it.
That may well have been true to some extent, but twice as long? I
doubt it. GN trains had to come up the steep and twisty Deschutes
Gorge from the Columbia River before they got to Bend and another
challenging mountain grade between Bend and Chemult. Granted, the GN
ran substantial 2-8-8-0s and 2-10-2s on the Oregon line, but the
standard WP power on the Keddie to Bieber "High line" was equally
substantial 2-6-6-2s and 2-8-8-2s, and through freight trains (i.e.,
almost all of the traffic) were operated with mid-train and rear end
helpers. Much more likely, WP ran only two second class scheduled
freight trains a day and the rest of the freight traffic as non-
scheduled extras.

Richard Hendrickson


Dave Nelson
 

To get up to Lake Alamanor (2.2% grade) WP usually used three 2-6-6-2's
spaced 10-12 cars apart, and fourth on the end, which might be a 2-8-8-2.
For a typical thru train, at Keddie they would fill out the tonnage with
D&RGW GS Gons bearing w/ Utah coal and they'd manage 2-5mph on the steepest
part of the line.

IIRC, post WWII there were two 2nd class trains, one of which was the
Westwood/Almanor Turn, so there was only one scheduled thru train, #177/178.
On the main, for many years #77/78 were known as trash haulers (a.k.a.
peddlers) which might also say something about these two linking up with the
GN. I doubt there were any more scheduled trains before the war and I'm not
familiar with operations post Korean War.

Doesn't sound like much but then one has to know that at Westwood was one of
the largest lumber mills in the world; if not the largest: Red River Lumber,
home of Paul Bunyon and Babe, his Blue Ox and that alone was apparently
thought to be worth the effort to build this line in the first place. Going
on to Bieber turned out to be a pipe dream: SP screwed the WP w/ a loophole
in an agreement to move lumber on that line and the GN/ATSF traffic was nice
but never lived up to it's high expectations.

FWIW, this route remained dark (unsignalled) well into the UP era (perhaps
even to this day).

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Richard Hendrickson

...standard WP power on the Keddie to Bieber "High line" was equally
substantial 2-6-6-2s and 2-8-8-2s, and through freight trains (i.e., almost
all of the traffic) were operated with mid-train and rear end helpers. Much
more likely, WP ran only two second class scheduled freight trains a day and
the rest of the freight traffic as non- scheduled extras.


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
That may well have been true to some extent, but twice as long? I doubt it. GN trains had to come up the steep and twisty Deschutes Gorge from the Columbia River before they got to Bend and another challenging mountain grade between Bend and Chemult.
Richard, you're forgetting that GN had a yard at Klamath Falls and could make up larger trains to run to Bieber from there. Anyone pursuing this topic will need to look at GN trains ARRIVING at K Falls from the north over the difficult terrain Richard correctly describes, as well as arrivals at Bieber.
Richard's second point, that we do not know the extent to which extra freights were operated by EITHER railroad, is also important and can't be solved with employee timetables.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Allen Rueter
 

That would be OT/SP&S trains on the twisty part from Wishram to Bend with 1.5% grade
they did use a lot of GN power , GN Bend to Bieber, IIRC there max grade was about 1.5 too.
Time will tell as I go thru more pages, and see how train numbers match up.

--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO




________________________________
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 10:55:31 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (GN, WP Interchange At Bieber)


On Nov 17, 2009, at 12:25 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Al Daumann wrote:
Did the bulk of the GN train become the WP and vice versa? If so,
why are there twice as many WP trains as GN . . .
One possibility is that the GN trains were twice as long (or
twice as heavy), the WP line south of Bieber being more challenging
than the GN line north of it.
That may well have been true to some extent, but twice as long? I
doubt it. GN trains had to come up the steep and twisty Deschutes
Gorge from the Columbia River before they got to Bend and another
challenging mountain grade between Bend and Chemult. Granted, the GN
ran substantial 2-8-8-0s and 2-10-2s on the Oregon line, but the
standard WP power on the Keddie to Bieber "High line" was equally
substantial 2-6-6-2s and 2-8-8-2s, and through freight trains (i.e.,
almost all of the traffic) were operated with mid-train and rear end
helpers. Much more likely, WP ran only two second class scheduled
freight trains a day and the rest of the freight traffic as non-
scheduled extras.

Richard Hendrickson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Allen Rueter
 

Al,
Actually my interests lie a little further north, the OT, if you have a GN time table, does it not show
the ruling grades?, the one steam era one I saw once did. GN was known for trying to run trains
at maximum tonnage. If you look at Austin & Dill's book, you will see double headed N-3s. As someone else pointed out, it's fairly flat K-Falls to Bieber. It may of been that GN only shows the local on its scheduled , all through trains could extras. ETTs are only a clue. I know from talking to a conductor of my
other favorite, the Wabash, that an extra ran seven days a week for years, yet it doesn't show up
in any timetable, making it look like there were more east bounds then west bounds, when it really was closer to equal, but tonnage wise it was more west bound (got to love that coal).

--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO




________________________________
From: Al Daumann <sp-blackwidow@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, November 16, 2009 10:37:42 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (GN, WP Interchange At Bieber)


Allen,
Thanks for the reply. Since you are researching Bieber in 1947, I'll assume we share somewhat of a common interest in that place and time.

My freelanced railroad (Burney, Redding & Western) interchanges with both the GN and the WP in Bieber. I have some questions, which you may have some information about, regarding the coordination (or lack thereof) of the WP and GN arrivals and departures in Bieber. Did the bulk of the GN train become the WP and vice versa? If so, why are there twice as many WP trains as GN (I recognize the timetables are ofset by 2.5 years, which might explain the whole difference)? I'd like to see a GN timetable from 1947 or a WP timetable from 1950 for Bieber to come arrivals and departures.

I have an original WP Western Division Timetable (34) dated June 1, 1947. I also have a copy of a GN Klamath Division Timetable (10) dated January 1, 1950.

The WP timetable lists four "regular / scheduled" trains per day arriving or departing Bieber:
1) Eastward 2nd Class #154 Western Pacific Fast Freight arriving 2:00 AM
2) Eastward 2nd Class #178 Western Pacific Fast Freight arriving 10:40 AM
3) Westward 2nd Class #153 Western Pacific Fast Freight departing 12:30 AM
4) Westward 2nd Class #177 Western Pacific Fast Freight departing 1:00 PM

The GN timetable lists two "regular / scheduled" trains per day arriving or departing Bieber:
1) Eastward 2nd Class #386 departing 3:00 AM
2) Westward 2nd Class #387 arriving 6:55 PM

Again, I'm curious how the cars were routed / forwarded through Bieber to/from the GN to/from the WP.

Thanks in advance.

Al Daumann



____________ _________ _________ __

From: Allen Rueter <allen_282@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, November 16, 2009 8:15:16 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

Al,
I'm working on transcribing what some refer to as a jumbo book, it is a log of cars received and forwarded at Bieber 1947, Oct-Dec.
The log book is ordered by the last two digits, with in a pair of pages it is ordered by the last 3 digits of the car number.
so *02 covers cars where the last two digits are 02, clear as mud?

If you look in the files section, you will some detailed ones that end in 00
( http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/STMFC/ files/gn% 20wp%20station% 20log%20bieber% 20/ )
--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Al Daumann <sp-blackwidow@ sbcglobal. net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 11:19:02 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

Greetings,
I'm new to the group, does this refer to an earlier discussion? I model a freelanced road that interchanges with the GN at Bieber (Nubieber) in the late 1940s. I'm always looking for new / addtional information.

What does *02 cars stand for?

Al Daumann

____________ _________ _________ __
From: allen_282 <allen_282@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 8:31:00 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

cars numbers ending with 02 at Bieber 4th quarter out of 259
GN - 40 - tho 2 cars make up 30 entries, with 2-5 day cycle times.
ATsf - 29
Rg/DRG - 28
SP - 17
PFE - 14
Pa/PRR - 12
BO - 8
CBQ - 7
NYC - 7
UTLX -7
IC - 5
RI - 5
Sou - 5
UP - 5
WP - 5
TCX -4
CO - 3
CSVX - 3 (all same car)
DLW - 3
FGE - 3
GATX - 3
LN - 3
Milw - 3
REX - 3
SCCX - 3
strays - ACL,ART,BLE, CGW,CEI,CNW, CRP,CRR, Erie, HTCX, MP, NH, NKP,
NP, NS, NW, PM, Pmcky (SF)Rd , SAL, SLSF, UCR, Wab, WLE

Allen Rueter
while watching the Packers win :)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]