Topics

Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars


Allen Rueter
 

Cars through Bieber 1947 4th quarter ending 02
GN - 35
ATSF - 27
PFE - 23
DRGW - 21
WP - 13
SP - 12
UP - 10
PRR - 10
Milw - 10
NYC - 7
NP - 6
IC - 6
CRIP - 6
WFE - 5
MDT - 5
ART - 5
FGE - 5
Wab - 3
UCR - 3
Sou - 3
NW - 3
strays Soo,SLSF,SCCX,SAL,LN,GMO,CSVX,CBQ,BRE,BO,
WLE, UTLX, SFRD, RDY, RDG, PE, NRC, MP,MOP,LV,LA,ITC,CRP CNJ,CN, CMO, CG, CA, BLE, ACL

not sure about a few of these like CRP 1902, RDY 1902

Allen Rueter


Frank Valoczy <destron@...>
 


not sure about a few of these like CRP 1902, RDY 1902
I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was a
subsidiary of Central of New Jersey for tax purposes. IIRC it was a court
order in 1952(?) that forced CNJ to abolish the CRP.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC


Tim O'Connor
 

Dave Nelson, I hope you're paying attention! :-) The list below
is 247 cars, just 1/100 of the numbers (00-99). If the distribution
of numbers is uniform (I know, fat chance) that would be 247*100
or 24,700 cars through Bieber in 3 months -- My original guess
was 20,000 to 30,000 cars. Your estimate was 4,000 cars, IIRC.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/21/2009 01:46 PM Saturday, you wrote:
Cars through Bieber 1947 4th quarter ending 02
GN - 35
ATSF - 27
PFE - 23
DRGW - 21
WP - 13
SP - 12
UP - 10
PRR - 10
Milw - 10
NYC - 7
NP - 6
IC - 6
CRIP - 6
WFE - 5
MDT - 5
ART - 5
FGE - 5
Wab - 3
UCR - 3
Sou - 3
NW - 3
strays Soo,SLSF,SCCX,SAL,LN,GMO,CSVX,CBQ,BRE,BO,
WLE, UTLX, SFRD, RDY, RDG, PE, NRC, MP,MOP,LV,LA,ITC,CRP CNJ,CN, CMO, CG, CA, BLE, ACL

not sure about a few of these like CRP 1902, RDY 1902

Allen Rueter


Dave Nelson
 

Tim, I made several mistakes: not finding the HH Copeland report, a
definiative source, was #1. Typing w/o first refreshing my memory was
clearly #2. My bad.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 1:00 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars


Dave Nelson, I hope you're paying attention! :-) The list below is 247 cars,
just 1/100 of the numbers (00-99). If the distribution of numbers is uniform
(I know, fat chance) that would be 247*100 or 24,700 cars through Bieber in
3 months -- My original guess was 20,000 to 30,000 cars. Your estimate was
4,000 cars, IIRC.

Tim O'Connor


pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Frank Valoczy wrote:
I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was a
subsidiary of Central of New Jersey for tax purposes. IIRC it was a court
order in 1952(?) that forced CNJ to abolish the CRP.
Probably means nothing in terms of Frank's abolishment/divestiture, but I photographed a CRP 70-ton flatcar at Colfax, CA, waiting in an eastbound freight in January 1959. The load was one beautiful sailboat, and one disheveled transient who probably had a very cold ride up from Roseville.

Tom Madden


Tim O'Connor
 

The tax dodge was incorporated into the plot of a Paul Newman
movie, The Young Philadelphians, where he saves a client big bucks
by shuffling some business from NJ to PA taxes.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/21/2009 04:53 PM Saturday, you wrote:
Frank Valoczy wrote:
I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was a
subsidiary of Central of New Jersey for tax purposes. IIRC it was a court
order in 1952(?) that forced CNJ to abolish the CRP.
Probably means nothing in terms of Frank's abolishment/divestiture, but I photographed a CRP 70-ton flatcar at Colfax, CA, waiting in an eastbound freight in January 1959. The load was one beautiful sailboat, and one disheveled transient who probably had a very cold ride up from Roseville.

Tom Madden


Schuyler Larrabee
 

I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was a
subsidiary of Central of New Jersey for tax purposes. IIRC it was a court
order in 1952(?) that forced CNJ to abolish the CRP.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52 in an effort to put some assets
of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax authorities. A lot of rolling stock
was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think that later this was determined to
be not legal.

Somebody on this list KNOWS the answer, I'm sure.

SGL





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Frank Valoczy <destron@...>
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52 in an
effort to put some assets
of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax
authorities. A lot of rolling stock
was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think that
later this was determined to
be not legal.

Somebody on this list KNOWS the answer, I'm sure.
1944 to 1952, according to Wikipedia. (with the usual Wikipedia caveat).

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC


MOFWCABOOSE@...
 

Central Railroad Company of Pennsylvania: August 1946 to December 1952, according to Edson.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:49 pm
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars




I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was a
subsidiary of Central of New Jersey for tax purposes. IIRC it was a court
order in 1952(?) that forced CNJ to abolish the CRP.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52 in an effort to put some assets
of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax authorities. A lot of rolling stock
was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think that later this was determined to
be not legal.

Somebody on this list KNOWS the answer, I'm sure.

SGL

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 21, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52
in an effort to put some assets
of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax
authorities. A lot of rolling stock
was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think
that later this was determined to
be not legal.
Well, Schuyler, in fact you ARE wrong, at least partly. CRP was
established in 1944 as a separate operating branch of the Central RR
of New Jersey, and remained so until ca. 1954, when the courts ruled
that it was an illicit tax dodge. After 1954, the cars with CRP
reporting marks were gradually re-integrated into the CNJ roster,
though there cars running around lettered CRP through the 1950s and
into the 1960s.

Richard Hendrickson


Schuyler Larrabee
 

On Nov 21, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52
in an effort to put some assets
of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax
authorities. A lot of rolling stock
was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think
that later this was determined to
be not legal.
Well, Schuyler, in fact you ARE wrong, at least partly. CRP was
established in 1944 as a separate operating branch of the Central RR
of New Jersey, and remained so until ca. 1954, when the courts ruled
that it was an illicit tax dodge. After 1954, the cars with CRP
reporting marks were gradually re-integrated into the CNJ roster,
though there cars running around lettered CRP through the 1950s and
into the 1960s.

Richard Hendrickson
Yes, Richard, wrong on the date, but right on the reason, concept, and methodology (re-initializing
the equipment). It all happened a few years earlier than I had in mind. Thanks for setting the
dates.

SGL





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tmolsen@...
 

In regard to the tax dodge that the CNJ had by setting up the lines in PA as CRP, it has to go back to sometime in 1945. The July 1944 ORER (effective date being April 1944) shows the CNJ only while the January 1946 ORER (effective date being October 1945) shows both the CRP and CNJ as separate entities. Remember there is always a 3-month lag between the ORER reporting date and the ORER front page publication date to allow the railroad companies to submit their data.

Sometime between October 1952 (January 1953 ORER) and January 1953 (April 1953) both the CRP and CNJ reporting marks were recombined under the Central Railroad of New Jersey ORER listing.

New Jersey was not buying the two separate railroads dodge and I am sure the state banged the CNJ for a ton of back taxes and penalties dating back to sometime in 1945.

Best regards,
Tom Olsen

Thomas M. Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 22, 2009, at 2:31 AM, <tmolsen@UDel.Edu> wrote:

In regard to the tax dodge that the CNJ had by setting up the lines
in PA as CRP, it has to go back to sometime in 1945. The July 1944
ORER (effective date being April 1944) shows the CNJ only while the
January 1946 ORER (effective date being October 1945) shows both
the CRP and CNJ as separate entities.
In fact, it started some time in 1944, as i said in an earlier post.
The CNJ and CRP are listed separately in the 1/45 ORER.

Richard Hendrickson


Bruce Smith
 

On Nov 22, 2009, at 2:31 AM, <tmolsen@UDel.Edu> wrote:

In regard to the tax dodge that the CNJ had by setting up the lines
in PA as CRP, it has to go back to sometime in 1945. The July 1944
ORER (effective date being April 1944) shows the CNJ only while the
January 1946 ORER (effective date being October 1945) shows both
the CRP and CNJ as separate entities.
So, when were the first cars lettered CRP?<VBG> Its obviously post
April 1944, but if, say it were May 1944, I might need a car lettered
for CRP!

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


tmolsen@...
 

Thanks Richard,
I did not have the earlier register, but your post really narrows it done to some time between April 1944 and October 1944 since the register cover dates are three months after the effective dates.

I used to live in Merchantville NJ and the portion of the Pemberton Branch that ran through the limits of the town boundaries paid enough taxes to fund the schools in town. They did not call New Jersey the "Gestapo" state for nothing when it comes to property taxes! The railroads have always paid a disproportionate share of the property taxes because they were an easy target.

Best regards,
Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292