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Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars
Allen Rueter
Cars through Bieber 1947 4th quarter ending 02
GN - 35 ATSF - 27 PFE - 23 DRGW - 21 WP - 13 SP - 12 UP - 10 PRR - 10 Milw - 10 NYC - 7 NP - 6 IC - 6 CRIP - 6 WFE - 5 MDT - 5 ART - 5 FGE - 5 Wab - 3 UCR - 3 Sou - 3 NW - 3 strays Soo,SLSF,SCCX,SAL,LN,GMO,CSVX,CBQ,BRE,BO, WLE, UTLX, SFRD, RDY, RDG, PE, NRC, MP,MOP,LV,LA,ITC,CRP CNJ,CN, CMO, CG, CA, BLE, ACL not sure about a few of these like CRP 1902, RDY 1902 Allen Rueter
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Frank Valoczy <destron@...>
I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was a subsidiary of Central of New Jersey for tax purposes. IIRC it was a court order in 1952(?) that forced CNJ to abolish the CRP. Frank Valoczy Vancouver, BC
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Dave Nelson, I hope you're paying attention! :-) The list below
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is 247 cars, just 1/100 of the numbers (00-99). If the distribution of numbers is uniform (I know, fat chance) that would be 247*100 or 24,700 cars through Bieber in 3 months -- My original guess was 20,000 to 30,000 cars. Your estimate was 4,000 cars, IIRC. Tim O'Connor
At 11/21/2009 01:46 PM Saturday, you wrote:
Cars through Bieber 1947 4th quarter ending 02
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Dave Nelson
Tim, I made several mistakes: not finding the HH Copeland report, a
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definiative source, was #1. Typing w/o first refreshing my memory was clearly #2. My bad. Dave Nelson
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 1:00 PM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars Dave Nelson, I hope you're paying attention! :-) The list below is 247 cars, just 1/100 of the numbers (00-99). If the distribution of numbers is uniform (I know, fat chance) that would be 247*100 or 24,700 cars through Bieber in 3 months -- My original guess was 20,000 to 30,000 cars. Your estimate was 4,000 cars, IIRC. Tim O'Connor
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pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
Frank Valoczy wrote:
I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was aProbably means nothing in terms of Frank's abolishment/divestiture, but I photographed a CRP 70-ton flatcar at Colfax, CA, waiting in an eastbound freight in January 1959. The load was one beautiful sailboat, and one disheveled transient who probably had a very cold ride up from Roseville. Tom Madden
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The tax dodge was incorporated into the plot of a Paul Newman
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movie, The Young Philadelphians, where he saves a client big bucks by shuffling some business from NJ to PA taxes. Tim O'Connor
At 11/21/2009 04:53 PM Saturday, you wrote:
Frank Valoczy wrote:I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was aProbably means nothing in terms of Frank's abolishment/divestiture, but I photographed a CRP 70-ton flatcar at Colfax, CA, waiting in an eastbound freight in January 1959. The load was one beautiful sailboat, and one disheveled transient who probably had a very cold ride up from Roseville.
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Schuyler Larrabee
I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was aI could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52 in an effort to put some assets of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax authorities. A lot of rolling stock was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think that later this was determined to be not legal. Somebody on this list KNOWS the answer, I'm sure. SGL E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.508) Database version: 6.13750 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
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Frank Valoczy <destron@...>
Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52 in an1944 to 1952, according to Wikipedia. (with the usual Wikipedia caveat). Frank Valoczy Vancouver, BC
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MOFWCABOOSE@...
Central Railroad Company of Pennsylvania: August 1946 to December 1952, according to Edson.
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John C. La Rue, Jr. Bonita Springs, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:49 pm Subject: RE: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was aI could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52 in an effort to put some assets of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax authorities. A lot of rolling stock was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think that later this was determined to be not legal. Somebody on this list KNOWS the answer, I'm sure. SGL E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.508) Database version: 6.13750 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Richard Hendrickson
On Nov 21, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52Well, Schuyler, in fact you ARE wrong, at least partly. CRP was established in 1944 as a separate operating branch of the Central RR of New Jersey, and remained so until ca. 1954, when the courts ruled that it was an illicit tax dodge. After 1954, the cars with CRP reporting marks were gradually re-integrated into the CNJ roster, though there cars running around lettered CRP through the 1950s and into the 1960s. Richard Hendrickson
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Schuyler Larrabee
On Nov 21, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:Yes, Richard, wrong on the date, but right on the reason, concept, and methodology (re-initializingI could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52Well, Schuyler, in fact you ARE wrong, at least partly. CRP was the equipment). It all happened a few years earlier than I had in mind. Thanks for setting the dates. SGL E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.508) Database version: 6.13750 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
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tmolsen@...
In regard to the tax dodge that the CNJ had by setting up the lines in PA as CRP, it has to go back to sometime in 1945. The July 1944 ORER (effective date being April 1944) shows the CNJ only while the January 1946 ORER (effective date being October 1945) shows both the CRP and CNJ as separate entities. Remember there is always a 3-month lag between the ORER reporting date and the ORER front page publication date to allow the railroad companies to submit their data.
Sometime between October 1952 (January 1953 ORER) and January 1953 (April 1953) both the CRP and CNJ reporting marks were recombined under the Central Railroad of New Jersey ORER listing. New Jersey was not buying the two separate railroads dodge and I am sure the state banged the CNJ for a ton of back taxes and penalties dating back to sometime in 1945. Best regards, Tom Olsen Thomas M. Olsen 7 Boundary Road, West Branch Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479 (302) 738-4292 tmolsen@udel.edu
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Richard Hendrickson
On Nov 22, 2009, at 2:31 AM, <tmolsen@UDel.Edu> wrote:
In regard to the tax dodge that the CNJ had by setting up the linesIn fact, it started some time in 1944, as i said in an earlier post. The CNJ and CRP are listed separately in the 1/45 ORER. Richard Hendrickson
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On Nov 22, 2009, at 2:31 AM, <tmolsen@UDel.Edu> wrote:
In regard to the tax dodge that the CNJ had by setting up the linesSo, when were the first cars lettered CRP?<VBG> Its obviously post April 1944, but if, say it were May 1944, I might need a car lettered for CRP! Regards Bruce Smith Auburn, AL
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tmolsen@...
Thanks Richard,
I did not have the earlier register, but your post really narrows it done to some time between April 1944 and October 1944 since the register cover dates are three months after the effective dates. I used to live in Merchantville NJ and the portion of the Pemberton Branch that ran through the limits of the town boundaries paid enough taxes to fund the schools in town. They did not call New Jersey the "Gestapo" state for nothing when it comes to property taxes! The railroads have always paid a disproportionate share of the property taxes because they were an easy target. Best regards, Tom Olsen 7 Boundary Road, West Branch Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479 (302) 738-4292
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