#### Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (How About The Trains?)

acacd_ssp

Tim,
Very interesting data to me, since I'm modeling a freelanced railroad that interchanges with both the GN and WP at Bieber in the late 1940s.  If your extrapolation is correct, the 24,700 cars in 3 months, would average around 275 cars / per day.

Recall in an earlier reply, I noted that a 1947 WP timetable had 4 regular / scheduled trains each day and a 1950 GN timetable had 2 each day.  For the WP, the 275 cars would average a little less than 70 cars per train.  This of course includes a big assumption that there were no extras, probably not a good assumption.

Would it be fair to assume that there would be very little classification / sorting going on a Bieber, meaning that the vast majority of the cars that the WP delivered continuing North on GN and vice versa?  I would assume some cars interchanged with McCloud at Hambone/Lookout.

Finally, any idea what a comparable number of cars going on the SP through Redding would be?

Comments, corrections and additional info much appreciated.

Al Daumann

________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sat, November 21, 2009 12:59:34 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

Dave Nelson, I hope you're paying attention! :-) The list below
is 247 cars, just 1/100 of the numbers (00-99). If the distribution
of numbers is uniform (I know, fat chance) that would be 247*100
or 24,700 cars through Bieber in 3 months -- My original guess
was 20,000 to 30,000 cars. Your estimate was 4,000 cars, IIRC.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/21/2009 01:46 PM Saturday, you wrote:
Cars through Bieber 1947 4th quarter ending 02
GN - 35
ATSF - 27
PFE - 23
DRGW - 21
WP - 13
SP - 12
UP - 10
PRR - 10
Milw - 10
NYC - 7
NP - 6
IC - 6
CRIP - 6
WFE - 5
MDT - 5
ART - 5
FGE - 5
Wab - 3
UCR - 3
Sou - 3
NW - 3
strays Soo,SLSF,SCCX, SAL,LN,GMO, CSVX,CBQ, BRE,BO,
WLE, UTLX, SFRD, RDY, RDG, PE, NRC, MP,MOP,LV,LA, ITC,CRP CNJ,CN, CMO, CG, CA, BLE, ACL

not sure about a few of these like CRP 1902, RDY 1902

Allen Rueter

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Al Daumann wrote:
Finally, any idea what a comparable number of cars going on the SP through Redding would be?
Redding has the complication that although SP moved most traffic on the Cascade Line, diverging at Black Butte, it did continue in 1947 to move a fair proportion (maybe a fourth) via the Siskiyou Line. But I do know that the traffic into Klamath Falls (Cascade Line) was 84% SP, 16% GN. Thus the likely proportion of GN-WP traffic over the Cascades vs. SP (both routes) was below 10%.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

acacd_ssp

Tony,
Thanks for the info.  So if I'm reading you right and assuming Tim's data (about 25000 cars per 3 months or about 275 cars / day through Bieber), then the total SP traffic would be about 10 times that going through Bieber, or about 2750 cars per day at, say Redding?

Al Daumann

________________________________
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sat, November 21, 2009 3:33:01 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (How About The Trains?)

Al Daumann wrote:
Finally, any idea what a comparable number of cars going on the SP
through Redding would be?
Redding has the complication that although SP moved most
traffic on the Cascade Line, diverging at Black Butte, it did continue
in 1947 to move a fair proportion (maybe a fourth) via the Siskiyou
Line. But I do know that the traffic into Klamath Falls (Cascade Line)
was 84% SP, 16% GN. Thus the likely proportion of GN-WP traffic over
the Cascades vs. SP (both routes) was below 10%.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress. com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Al Daumann wrote:
Thanks for the info. So if I'm reading you right and assuming Tim's data (about 25000 cars per 3 months or about 275 cars / day through Bieber), then the total SP traffic would be about 10 times that going through Bieber, or about 2750 cars per day at, say Redding?
That high an amount seems impossible, but I'm quoting a traffic study from 1951. Even the 275/day at Bieber sounds high to me. I'd believe 1500 or so cars daily at Redding, counting both directions.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Allen Rueter

Doesn't seem so high to me when you look at it as 135+ north and 135+ south, come close to possibly match
the time-tables.

Also the GN passed traffic to the SP at K Falls, that came out of Spokane & Montana.

--
Allen Rueter StLouis MO

________________________________
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sat, November 21, 2009 6:17:13 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (How About The Trains?)

Al Daumann wrote:
Thanks for the info. So if I'm reading you right and assuming
Tim's data (about 25000 cars per 3 months or about 275 cars / day
through Bieber), then the total SP traffic would be about 10 times
that going through Bieber, or about 2750 cars per day at, say Redding?
That high an amount seems impossible, but I'm quoting a traffic
study from 1951. Even the 275/day at Bieber sounds high to me. I'd
believe 1500 or so cars daily at Redding, counting both directions.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress. com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tim O'Connor

Tony, your 84/16 is roughly a 5:1 ratio. There must be some
amount of double counting since GN/SP interchanged some amount
of traffic at Klamath Falls, although it's probably not a lot.
The region had a significant amount of online traffic (timber
and lumber mostly) so even if the WP/GN interchanged 275 cars
daily at Bieber, a fair amount of that would not be overhead
traffic but would originate either on the WP or OT (GN) or be
interchange for the SP at K-Falls. At the same time, not all
of SP's Cascade traffic went through Redding, but was diverted
via the Modoc line between K-Falls and Nevada.

So the bottom line, even if SP handled 10x the traffic over its
various routes compared to the GN+WP operations, it's not simply
a matter of counting cars at one location.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/21/2009 06:33 PM Saturday, you wrote:
Al Daumann wrote:
Finally, any idea what a comparable number of cars going on the SP
through Redding would be?
Redding has the complication that although SP moved most
traffic on the Cascade Line, diverging at Black Butte, it did continue
in 1947 to move a fair proportion (maybe a fourth) via the Siskiyou
Line. But I do know that the traffic into Klamath Falls (Cascade Line)
was 84% SP, 16% GN. Thus the likely proportion of GN-WP traffic over
the Cascades vs. SP (both routes) was below 10%.

Tony Thompson

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Tony, your 84/16 is roughly a 5:1 ratio. There must be some amount of double counting since GN/SP interchanged some amount of traffic at Klamath Falls, although it's probably not a lot.
At the same time, not all of SP's Cascade traffic went through Redding, but was diverted via the Modoc line between K-Falls and Nevada.
The statistic I provided was a comparison of SP traffic over the combined Cascade and Siskiyou Routes, to and from Oregon, vs. the amount of traffic on the GN-WP Inside Gateway. It does NOT include the Modoc line, which would increase SP's proportion (of something). I don't see how it relates to whatever GN did north of K Falls.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

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