Denny --

Like you, I have a cache of Scalecoat I (mostly those great Pennsy and NYC
colors). In general, I have had decent success using Scalecoat I over
Floquil primer on styrene.

But beware that this is a form of Russian Roulette, and that somewhere in
the revolver is a bullet that will get you. Make sure your primer is well
cured before spraying the Scalecoat I. And do a test patch inside the model
to make sure that bad things aren't about to happen. And if the styrene in
your model appears punky, it probably is a poor risk for Scalecoat I (the
old Cannonball Car Shops freight cars and E&B Valley passenger cars come to
mind).

Good luck!
Bob Chapman

So often we are like a lone ship at sea pressing on without a compass, happy as clams, but not realizing that we are headed in a distinctly wrong direction! As always, it is always reassuring to again hear common sense from so many respected modelers, and that the course one has chosen is still correct!

The advice to await complete drying of the base paint coat (no smell!) before applying a paint of different formulation is about as good as one can get in avoiding big time problems. The advice to apply only thin coats is only very slightly far behind.

Several people off list have commented on the need for "primer". Long recognizing the fact that "primer", either Floquil or the late lamented Accupaint, is really only flat gray paint, I continue to use them to provide me with a uniform pretty neutral shadowless flat color without any contrast or reflection. In so many ways, this simple action visually "ties" together for the first time a model that heretofore has only been seen as a bundle of disparate, if attached parts. By completely eliminating contrast and reflection, this also gives the model builder a last chance to detect and correct surface and other flaws that had been otherwise lost in the clutter.

Of interest for aficionados of Scalecoat I history , I note that some of my jars of paint - obviously of some vintage- specifically announce that they "contain Toluol, Xylol, and Lead"! Other jars say that they "contain no Lead"! No wonder Scalecoat has had such vibrant colors for so many years, and it is even more of a wonder that in more recent years they have been able to maintain the colors without the lead.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

Denny Anspach wrote:

. . . I continue to use [primer] to provide me with a uniform pretty neutral shadowless flat color without any contrast or reflection . . . By completely eliminating contrast and reflection, this also gives the model builder a last chance to detect and correct surface and other flaws that had been otherwise lost in the clutter.

I've used gray primer for years, but only, as Denny says, when there's a lot of kitbashing or puttying or other work which may need refinement after examination in the primer coat. In fact, I guess I don't regard it as primer at all, but as a kind of "witness coat" before applying color.

Of interest for aficionados of Scalecoat I history, I note that some of my jars of paint - obviously of some vintage- specifically announce that they "contain Toluol, Xylol, and Lead"! No wonder Scalecoat has had such vibrant
colors for so many years, and it is even more of a wonder that in more recent years they have been able to maintain the colors without the lead.

Lead compounds don't necessarily provide more vivid color, but are often the cheapest source of color. It is perfectly possible, as many art supplies testify, to have FAR more vivid colors than anything we use as modelers, and without a trace of lead. Next time you're at the art supply store, browse the paints and you'll see what I mean. Yes, there are plenty of lead-containing paints, but there are also plenty of bright colors without lead.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Lead compounds don't necessarily provide more vivid color,
but are often the cheapest source of color. It is perfectly possible,
as many art supplies testify, to have FAR more vivid colors than
anything we use as modelers, and without a trace of lead. Next time
you're at the art supply store, browse the paints and you'll see what
I mean. Yes, there are plenty of lead-containing paints, but there are
also plenty of bright colors without lead.

Tony Thompson

Mmmm, certainly not what the paint chemist who mixed Scalecoat told me. I was then (and still am,
for that matter) hoping to get a Scalecoat version of the two ERIE greens used for passenger
service. Or, actually, anybody other than Accupaint's versions. I was never able to get Accupaint
to work for me. But to get back to the point, Weaver at Quality Craft referred me to the chemist to
ask about mixing such a paint. He said that he was in the process at that time (this is ca. 1982 or
so) of finding suitable substitute coloring agents to be able to match the colors he'd created when
lead was an acceptable component of paint, and that it was proving to be an extremely hard and
frustrating exercise. He believed that it was simply not possible to achieve a dead match to colors
prepared with lead compounds. IIRC, this also applied to a few other coloring agents, but I don't
recall them at this remove.

The upshot was that he was not interested at all in working with me to create these other colors.
He had far too much to do to finish reproducing the line lead-free.

SGL





E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.508)
Database version: 6.13850
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

Mmmm, certainly not what the paint chemist who mixed Scalecoat told me . . . Weaver at Quality Craft referred me to the chemist to ask about mixing such a paint. He said that he was in the process at that time (this is ca. 1982 or so) of finding suitable substitute coloring agents to be able to match the colors he'd created when lead was an acceptable component of paint, and that it was proving to be an extremely hard and frustrating exercise. He believed that it was simply not possible to achieve a dead match to colors prepared with lead compounds. IIRC, this also applied to a few other coloring agents, but I don't

Two points: first, I was responding to Denny's comment about VIVID colors, not about precise color matches. And second, if I were going to do color matching, I'd hire an artist, not a chemist. Visit any art store and tell me you can't get colors to be mixed. About that Erie green? That one I can't answer, but I'd be REALLY surprised to hear that it "can't be matched."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

Mmmm, certainly not what the paint chemist who mixed Scalecoat told
me . . . Weaver at Quality Craft referred me to the chemist to ask
about mixing such a paint. He said that he was in the process at
that time (this is ca. 1982 or so) of finding suitable substitute
coloring agents to be able to match the colors he'd created when
lead was an acceptable component of paint, and that it was proving
to be an extremely hard and frustrating exercise. He believed that
it was simply not possible to achieve a dead match to colors
prepared with lead compounds. IIRC, this also applied to a few
other coloring agents, but I don't

Two points: first, I was responding to Denny's comment about
VIVID colors, not about precise color matches. And second, if I were
going to do color matching, I'd hire an artist, not a chemist. Visit
any art store and tell me you can't get colors to be mixed. About that
Erie green? That one I can't answer, but I'd be REALLY surprised to
hear that it "can't be matched."

Tony Thompson

VIVIDness is exactly what the Chemist was talking about. And you need a chemist when you're working
with the elements in the coloring agents that go into the paint and you want it to be stable. I
remember that he was lamenting that to create a yellow, EL Yellow, since he knew I was interested in
that, without the ability to use chrome, was a real trial. Sure you can go to the paint store and
get any color you can find matched, at least pretty close. But that's latex, generally, and your
average house painter or housewife who's decided it would be great if the dining room were painted a
nice green is not the same customer who is going to take a bottle of paint and airbrush a swatch of
it onto a card and go hold it against some prototype in a museum and bitch that it's not

EXACTLY<<<< correct, and also will expect that paint to look exactly the same 30 years from now.

Dining rooms get repainted every once in a while, and probably not the same color.

There are two ERIE greens. The dark is the same as NP dark green. The lighter color, really a
gray-green, is NOT a match for the NP color. According to Ron Sebastian who has the original paint
materials from EMD, that gray-green color was not used on ANY other EMD locomotive.

SGL






E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.508)
Database version: 6.13850
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

Sure you can go to the paint store and get any color you can find matched, at least pretty close. But that's latex, generally, and your average house painter or housewife who's decided it would be great if the dining room were painted a nice green is not the same customer who is going to take a bottle of paint and airbrush a swatch of
it onto a card and go hold it against some prototype in a museum . . .

Um, no one mentioned house paint until now, Schuyler. You will notice I was quite specific about art supply stores, not hardware/ paint stores. And BTW, the ability of the modern paint store to match pretty darn accurately, anything you bring them, can be pretty useful if you're, say, restoring a depot. But that's not what I was on about.
And please, let's NOT revisit that thread about whether or not the EXACT correct prototype color is really the right thing to put on (indoor) models.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

And please, let's NOT revisit that thread about whether or not
the EXACT correct prototype color is really the right thing to put on
(indoor) models.

Tony Thompson

Agreed!!

SGL





E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.508)
Database version: 6.13850
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/