I just tested, my Branchline GB&W and NKP reefers roll no better than fair down an incline, but my MILW reefer rolls fantastically! Same manufacturer… same model, same trucks... but the MILW has shiny metal wheels (due to be fixed in my final round with the wheel painting jig). The wheels appear to be the same (based on the profile of their backs). The slow ones actually stop on the incline, before the curve, while the MILW rolls through the curve and up the incline on the other side, then back...
The MILW reefer was bought first, has plastic pins instead of metal screws to hold the trucks on (paradoxically, I think they mount more securely in this instance, but that wouldn't explain the rolling disparity of the wheels.)
Why would this be? Does the blackening of the wheels actually slow them down that much? Or, did something happen in the manufacturing process? All my other metal wheels roll better, and even some plastic ones do!

Dean Payne

Dean: couple things, Did you use the Reboxx tool on the trucks? Also,
branchline changed wheels at some point in production, the newer wheels were
better, and were shiny turned wheels, the older ones were duller and maybe
cast. I am not sure since I change my trucks to Reboxx wheels.



Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga NY



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Dean
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 11:40 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Branchline reefer rolling resistance





I just tested, my Branchline GB&W and NKP reefers roll no better than fair
down an incline, but my MILW reefer rolls fantastically! Same manufacturer.
same model, same trucks... but the MILW has shiny metal wheels (due to be
fixed in my final round with the wheel painting jig). The wheels appear to
be the same (based on the profile of their backs). The slow ones actually
stop on the incline, before the curve, while the MILW rolls through the
curve and up the incline on the other side, then back...
The MILW reefer was bought first, has plastic pins instead of metal screws
to hold the trucks on (paradoxically, I think they mount more securely in
this instance, but that wouldn't explain the rolling disparity of the
wheels.)
Why would this be? Does the blackening of the wheels actually slow them down
that much? Or, did something happen in the manufacturing process? All my
other metal wheels roll better, and even some plastic ones do!

Dean Payne

Dean, I regularly roll test new models and I try different
combinations of wheels and trucks. I have observed that same
or similar performance as you describe at various times.

First, I would try the SAME pair of trucks on all three cars.

If they roll the same, then you know the problem is with the
other trucks. In that case compare the exact length of the
slow wheels to the free rolling truck wheels. If they're all
the same, then you may need to use the "Tool" to ream out the
journals. Also visually inspect the trucks -- some trucks are
not molded perfectly 4-square. If that happens, then the wheels
are not parallel to the rails and they're going to slide. Bad.

If they roll differently, then you probably have over-tightened
the screws on the slower cars. This can result in the trucks
having a slight "crab" roll which greatly increases friction.

Buy some Neolube from P-B-L also. You can "paint" this graphite
into the journals of your trucks. It -WILL- make a difference
and it looks like spilled oil when it's dry.

Tim O'Connor

I highly recommend P-B-L Neolube for use on axle ends, journal boxes, truck centre plates, Kadee couplers, and switch points (provided that the points are of the same polarity as the stock rails). All move a lot more freely when Neolube is used on them.

http://www.p-b-l.com/pbl2000/Neolube.html

Steve Lucas.

There are so many variables to contend with according to your post that it is impossible to render any single bit of advice as to how to proceed.

Probably the most productive place to start is determining the length of the axles. The most important thing to keep in mind is that model trucks are most distinctly NOT precision assemblies (we could not even begin to afford them if they were!), and that within wide parameters, they are for the most part designed only to roll above a certain minimum standard. For those widely interested in increasing truck rollability, this standard is commonly found to be relatively low, while for the general market, the standard is widely accepted as OK.

Most mass produced trucks are sized to routinely handle axle sets nominally of 1.015" length. Because of the natural variability that occurs in the plastic injection process, however, two trucks from the same batch with the same wheel sets may vary considerably when it comes to rolling ability. If a given axle/truck fit is not optimal, no amount of other changes will improve things.

Maximum rolling ability often clashes with another issue: minimum axle end play- an issue ever more important with the increasing use and acceptance of scale-sized couplers. Although not too often- but often enough- maximum rolling ability is accompanied by the truck sliding/ rocking from side to side like a drunken sailor because of excessive axle end play. No wonder these cars will not couple easily!

1) The Branchline metal wheel sets had axles that routinely measured 1.018" in length, versus the long-time popular Intermountain sets that most commonly measured 1.012" (nominal 1.015"). This excessive length can and has caused problems, sometimes with Branchline's own products.

2) The shape and contour of the axle ends make a difference, as does the material with which they are made. The thin needle-like axle ends of the Reboxx , Intermountain, and Branchline wheel sets offer the best rolling potential. The wide axle ends of the otherwise beautiful NWSL wheels turn out to be a significant relative disadvantage when measuring comparable rollability. The plastic ends of the high quality Kadee wheels ditto (all of Kadee's own trucks gain added rollability when fitted with measured Reboxx wheel sets). For reasons that I cannot explain, the Reboxx wheels of the same nominal length consistently out-roll the Branchlines.

3) Over the past year or two, IM has changed the China sourcing for their wheels, a change that I and others have discovered has resulted in a reduction in routine axle length from 1.012" to 1.007", albeit with some perceived smoothing of the axle tips. This is a significant change- not for the good- that has caused at least one premium aftermarket truck manufacturer to change metal wheel suppliers (although IM and Reboxx are owned by the same entity, Reboxx wheels are still sourced from their original factory, and in my experience still maintain their very high quality).

As has been pointed out by many on this list over the years, the limited "science" that can be applied to this rollability issue has itself to be applied with a large dollop of art because of the composite nature of so many variables.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

Dean,

If you have cars with the earlier blackened wheels. the issue is not wit the wheels but rather the axles. Those wheels used plastic axles, the later (shiny) ones had metal axles. The metal axles roll much more freely in the Branchline sideframes. You can check the ends of the plastic axles to make sure that they are smooth without flash, but my suggestion would be to replace the blackened wheel/plastic axle assembly with turned metal ones from Branchline, IM or Reboxx.

Bill Schneider


From: Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:21 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Branchline reefer rolling resistance



Dean, I regularly roll test new models and I try different
combinations of wheels and trucks. I have observed that same
or similar performance as you describe at various times.

First, I would try the SAME pair of trucks on all three cars.

If they roll the same, then you know the problem is with the
other trucks. In that case compare the exact length of the
slow wheels to the free rolling truck wheels. If they're all
the same, then you may need to use the "Tool" to ream out the
journals. Also visually inspect the trucks -- some trucks are
not molded perfectly 4-square. If that happens, then the wheels
are not parallel to the rails and they're going to slide. Bad.

If they roll differently, then you probably have over-tightened
the screws on the slower cars. This can result in the trucks
having a slight "crab" roll which greatly increases friction.

Buy some Neolube from P-B-L also. You can "paint" this graphite
into the journals of your trucks. It -WILL- make a difference
and it looks like spilled oil when it's dry.

Tim O'Connor

At 1/18/2010 11:39 PM Monday, you wrote:

I just tested, my Branchline GB&W and NKP reefers roll no better than fair down an incline, but my MILW reefer rolls fantastically! Same manufacturer. same model, same trucks... but the MILW has shiny metal wheels (due to be fixed in my final round with the wheel painting jig). The wheels appear to be the same (based on the profile of their backs). The slow ones actually stop on the incline, before the curve, while the MILW rolls through the curve and up the incline on the other side, then back...
The MILW reefer was bought first, has plastic pins instead of metal screws to hold the trucks on (paradoxically, I think they mount more securely in this instance, but that wouldn't explain the rolling disparity of the wheels.)
Why would this be? Does the blackening of the wheels actually slow them down that much? Or, did something happen in the manufacturing process? All my other metal wheels roll better, and even some plastic ones do!

Dean Payne

Neolube is great stuff. I've painted locomotive wheels with it. But you can pay less than P-B-L
wants for it. Look around.

SGL

I highly recommend P-B-L Neolube for use on axle ends, journal boxes, truck centre plates, Kadee

couplers, and switch

points (provided that the points are of the same polarity as the stock rails). All move a lot more

freely when Neolube is

used on them.

http://www.p-b-l.com/pbl2000/Neolube.html <http://www.p-b-l.com/pbl2000/Neolube.html>

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>

wrote:

Buy some Neolube from P-B-L also. You can "paint" this graphite
into the journals of your trucks. It -WILL- make a difference
and it looks like spilled oil when it's dry.

Tim O'Connor

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But you can pay less than P-B-L

wants for it. Look around.<
Some time ago I did some extensive searching for this stuff. Thirty years ago I had a spray can of it but the only use appear to be the AEC. You can find a site (at least then I did) but a 55 gal drum was a little excessive for me. I would like to know of any other place I can get it. On the net would be best.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Neolube is great stuff. I've painted locomotive wheels with it. But you can
pay less than P-B-L
wants for it. Look around.

SGL

Careful here......the Neolube contains graphite as
it's lubricating medium. On insulated drivers it can
"bridge" the insulation band and cause them to then
be conductive. . . with the corresponding short across
the driver set......! Don't ask how I know this......!

Mal Houck

Although lubing does not generally hinder rollability, my experience and recordable data is that lubing axle ends with "whatever" lubricant is rarely of any measurable benefit in improving rollability, excepting the occasional situation where there is adverse metal/metal contact.

Lubing also eliminates the occasional mysterious "squeaky" wheels.

As a result of this, I stopped oiling or lubing axle ends some years ago- except in specific situations- and I do not miss it.

Denny

Denny
Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

Denny Anspach wrote:

Although lubing does not generally hinder rollability, my experience and recordable data is that lubing axle ends with "whatever" lubricant is rarely of any measurable benefit in improving rollability, excepting the occasional situation where there is adverse metal/metal contact.

Lubing also eliminates the occasional mysterious "squeaky" wheels.

This is exactly my experience too, though I don't do the comprehensive rollability tests that Denny does.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

While I don't think Neolube is good for trucks it is very good for Kadee type couplers that are not plastic. Neolube on the brass spring and drawbar of the coupler works (let it dry completely). It also good on the knuckle face especially if you file or polish them. Again I only use it on metal parts not plastic or metal to plastic contact.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Mal--

I suspect that the surface area of the insulation bridged by Neolube on the loco drivers was greater than the surface area bridged by Neolube on an HO scale 33" wheelset. Especially with say, a Big Boy having sixteen drive wheels painted with Neolube?

Now, if the conductivity of Neolube is measurable when bridging insualtion on a wheelset, then maybe we can make some Code 88 wheelsets that will work signalling systems for the cost of the wheelsets and some Neolube? And look nice and oily too? :)

I should add that so far I've been careful not to bridge the insulation on wheelsets with Neolube, but this thread has me thinking...

Steve Lucas.

Denny, I recently had a car with squeaky, mediocre rolling wheels.
I Neo-lubed the axle/journals without removing the wheels from the
trucks... The improvement (after drying) was about a 50% increase
in free rolling distance and no squeaks. (My test track is an
incline with measured distances.)

I've used various types of grease in the past (esp Cape Line trucks,
and brass trucks) which helps with the squeak but not so much the
rolling.

Try it -- you might like it!

Tim O'Connor

I'm curious, I use the Reboxx took, and Reboxx, Branchline, and IM semi-scale wheels. I hand fit trucks with an appropriate wheel set that provides some side play but is not sloppy, and I have very free rolling cars that allow 30 car trains on 2% grades(I haven't tried more) Why go to the added trouble of lubing the wheels? I assume neolube doesn't attarct dirt that would be another drawback.  How long are the trains are you guys pulling? 
brian carlson

Brian

I paint the faces of wheels with Neolube. It's fast and easier
than an airbrush and I get some extra rolling performance in the
bargain. What's not to like?

Tim O'Connor

Neolube is great stuff. I've painted locomotive wheels with it. But you can
pay less than P-B-L
wants for it. Look around.

SGL

Careful here......the Neolube contains graphite as
it's lubricating medium. On insulated drivers it can
"bridge" the insulation band and cause them to then
be conductive. . . with the corresponding short across
the driver set......! Don't ask how I know this......!

Mal Houck

Correct. I was beyond careful, knowing that was a potential pitfall.

SGL





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But you can pay less than P-B-L

wants for it. Look around.<
Some time ago I did some extensive searching for this stuff. Thirty
years ago I had a spray can of it but the only use appear to be the AEC.
You can find a site (at least then I did) but a 55 gal drum was a little
excessive for me. I would like to know of any other place I can get it. On
the net would be best.

Jon Miller

I truly don't recall where I got it, an electronics store, maybe? Long time since.

SGL





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Now, if the conductivity of Neolube is measurable when bridging insualtion on a wheelset, then

maybe we can make

some Code 88 wheelsets that will work signalling systems for the cost of the wheelsets and some

Neolube? And look

nice and oily too? :)


Steve Lucas.

Tried that. Works well.

SGL





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