Drawing or tracing lettering (was FGEX/WFEX Questions


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

My preferred method for creating lettering is CAD. There is greater precision than with any other method. (Yes, some equal CAD's precision but not exceed it.) I have had the opportunity to trace lettering on cars for my favorite railroad. I literally trace it 1 to 1 with tracing paper and then draw with CAD. A full size print out is placed under the tracing paper to find where minor adjustments are needed. With a little tweaking I have "perfect" lettering including spacing between letters.

Can anyone tell me what the height of the letters in VENTILATOR AND REFRIGERATOR should be on the FGEX car in the 3 photos?

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., jerryglow@... wrote:

For what he could sell, it's probably not worth his time. I know what it takes, I've created TTF fonts from tracings but don't worry about kerning because I use CorelDraw which lets me space letters at will. One of the primary rules is to know what size letters are supposed to be in each location then, working in scale, adjust them accordingly. I can even streach or narrow letters as I go. I usually work over a picture but wouldn't think of using bitmap graphics for my output. The biggest complaint against computer fonts is the misuse by someone not knowing a few basic rules and skills.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., richtownsend@ wrote:

I tried to interest Benn Coifman at Railfonts in it several years ago, and sent him photos showing all the letter variations I was aware of, but it appears he is not interested in doing the font. Maybe if there was a groundswell of interest from modelers he might do it .....


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
I can see why; it's a pretty ugly typeface. One of the problems Mr. Coifmann faces is that he works the letterforms into a true font; complete with proper kerning and specifically adjusted "kerning pairs" (such as AV) so you can use the font to type correspondence if you wanted to. For our purposes you don't need a font, all you need is a graphic of the lettering as it is displayed on the car side. With the material in these three photos:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-frt/fgex14815jpa.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-frt/fgex14815jpb.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-frt/fgex14815jpc.jpg

You should be able to trace over the lettering in Coral Draw or whatever and come up with acceptable art for decals.

Dennis


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

My preferred method for creating lettering is CAD. There is greater precision than with any other method. (Yes, some equal CAD's precision but not exceed it.)
Gene,

Take a look at:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-frt/12-D-97.GIF

It will give you the correct letter sizes and placement, but not the correct letterform, since they were doodled on the drawing.

Illustrator type software such as Adobe Illustrator or Coral Draw rival true CAD systems in accuracy, since they draw vector images over the raster original of the photo. The main advantage of illustrator type software over CAD is that the illustrator software gives you more control over line weights, and it geared more toward outputting text. Cad software will draw the shape you need. but will not interface well with the decal maker's output device.


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Dennis,
Thanks for the reference to the equipment diagram and the tips about Adobe Illustrator and Corel Draw. Many years ago a friend showed me how to use the scale features of Corel Draw.

Gene

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@> wrote:

My preferred method for creating lettering is CAD. There is greater precision than with any other method. (Yes, some equal CAD's precision but not exceed it.)
Gene,

Take a look at:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-frt/12-D-97.GIF

It will give you the correct letter sizes and placement, but not the correct letterform, since they were doodled on the drawing.

Illustrator type software such as Adobe Illustrator or Coral Draw rival true CAD systems in accuracy, since they draw vector images over the raster original of the photo. The main advantage of illustrator type software over CAD is that the illustrator software gives you more control over line weights, and it geared more toward outputting text. Cad software will draw the shape you need. but will not interface well with the decal maker's output device.


jerryglow2
 

CorelDraw (and I'd suspect Adobe Illustrator) are well used in the graphics industry. I've had decals made (from 2 different manufacturers plus the ALPS on my own), had vinyl cut, a namesign for my house CNCed, and laser work done all from Corel outputted files.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

Dennis,
Thanks for the reference to the equipment diagram and the tips about Adobe Illustrator and Corel Draw. Many years ago a friend showed me how to use the scale features of Corel Draw.

Gene

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@> wrote:

My preferred method for creating lettering is CAD. There is greater precision than with any other method. (Yes, some equal CAD's precision but not exceed it.)
Gene,

Take a look at:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-frt/12-D-97.GIF

It will give you the correct letter sizes and placement, but not the correct letterform, since they were doodled on the drawing.

Illustrator type software such as Adobe Illustrator or Coral Draw rival true CAD systems in accuracy, since they draw vector images over the raster original of the photo. The main advantage of illustrator type software over CAD is that the illustrator software gives you more control over line weights, and it geared more toward outputting text. Cad software will draw the shape you need. but will not interface well with the decal maker's output device.


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Oh, darn!! Looks like I need to learn to use another software.
Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., jerryglow@... wrote:

CorelDraw (and I'd suspect Adobe Illustrator) are well used in the graphics industry. I've had decals made (from 2 different manufacturers plus the ALPS on my own), had vinyl cut, a namesign for my house CNCed, and laser work done all from Corel outputted files.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@> wrote:

Dennis,
Thanks for the reference to the equipment diagram and the tips about Adobe Illustrator and Corel Draw. Many years ago a friend showed me how to use the scale features of Corel Draw.

Gene

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@> wrote:

My preferred method for creating lettering is CAD. There is greater precision than with any other method. (Yes, some equal CAD's precision but not exceed it.)
Gene,

Take a look at:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-frt/12-D-97.GIF

It will give you the correct letter sizes and placement, but not the correct letterform, since they were doodled on the drawing.

Illustrator type software such as Adobe Illustrator or Coral Draw rival true CAD systems in accuracy, since they draw vector images over the raster original of the photo. The main advantage of illustrator type software over CAD is that the illustrator software gives you more control over line weights, and it geared more toward outputting text. Cad software will draw the shape you need. but will not interface well with the decal maker's output device.


Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

I have not been following this thread too closely, but I do know that the CSRM Library has a whole research file (publicly available) developed for the museum's FGE #35832 repainting in 1980. I know that there exists at least an overall hand-done paint diagram similar to, but not the same as that presented by Dennis, but like Dennis' it too does not detail lettering styling. A post to Cara Randall <crandall@...
, Librarian might bring further information.
Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


water.kresse@...
 

The actual letters and numbers used to make the stencils are normally drawn on their own drawing sheet(s).  The lettering on the lettering sheets have various degrees of fidelity.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, February 8, 2010 12:30:52 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Drawing or tracing lettering (was FGEX/WFEX Questions

I have not been following this thread too closely, but I do know that  
the CSRM Library has a whole research file (publicly available)  
developed for the museum's FGE #35832 repainting in 1980.  I know that  
there exists at least an overall hand-done paint diagram similar to,  
but not the same as that presented by Dennis, but like Dennis' it too  
does not detail lettering styling.  A post to Cara Randall <crandall@...
 >, Librarian might bring further information.

Denny

Denny S.  Anspach MD
Sacramento







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



The actual letters and numbers used to make the stencils are normally drawn on their own drawing sheet(s). The lettering on the lettering sheets have various degrees of fidelity.



Al Kresse
Unfortunately, these are the drawings LEAST likely to have been saved. Lettering diagrams (for placement, not letterforms) at least look like a drawing of a railroad car to the dumpster diving railfans that saved a lot of this stuff. The drawings of the actual letters didn't, and were often passed over.

A nice example of the drawing that details the LETTERS, rather than lettering placement, is presented in Terry Metcalf's Union Pacific Freight Cars 1936-51 on page 29. Of course, this drawing is only specifically applicable to the 3" letters to be used for capacity data; other sizes may have a different ratio of stroke width to character height. Also interesting to note that there is no drawing for the G, J, or S, so if you need these letters, you're SOL, because the railroad didn't bother to create them.

This, and the kerning issue, are what lead people to complain that the Railfonts by Ben Coifmann "aren't right." Well, they're right for something, in some size, but exactly what we'll never know.

We did a custom job here at Accurail a number of years ago that involved custom drawn lettering in five different sizes, IIRC. The graphic artist who initially drew the lettering drew one size, then resized it on a stat camera for all the rest. In the 3" and 4" sizes, the narrow strokes (this was a serif "Roman" typeface, with two different stroke widths in each character) simply disappeared. After obtaining a clear copy of the photo he had worked from, some careful measurement determined that the proportion between narrow and wide strokes, and both those dimensions relative to the height of the letters, differed for each of the five sizes. Once that was sorted out, the art looked nice, but it took drawings parts of five different "fonts" to achieve it.

Dennis

Dennis


rwitt_2000
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

We did a custom job here at Accurail a number of years ago that
involved custom drawn lettering in five different sizes, IIRC. The
graphic artist who initially drew the lettering drew one size, then
resized it on a stat camera for all the rest. In the 3" and 4" sizes,
the narrow strokes (this was a serif "Roman" typeface, with two
different stroke widths in each character) simply disappeared. After
obtaining a clear copy of the photo he had worked from, some careful
measurement determined that the proportion between narrow and wide
strokes, and both those dimensions relative to the height of the
letters, differed for each of the five sizes. Once that was sorted out,
the art looked nice, but it took drawings parts of five different
"fonts" to achieve it.

Yes, this is so very true. When Chris Barken made the fonts for the B&O
lettering, he told me he had access to all the stencils for the
different size lettering. Sometimes well meaning people when lettering
restored freight cars take one size stencil say a 3" and enlarge it to
9" without any compensation. Some of us can "see" that it just doesn't
look right and the experience of Dennis helps explain why. Reducing
small lettering for use on models requires additional adjustments for
the lettering to remain legible.

Regards,

Bob Witt