PFE R-40-14 UP Herald


John Hile
 

Hello All,

Am I correct in assuming the non-aluminum PFE R-40-14 reefers wore the UP Overland herald when new? What I have found, is that the R-40-14's were built in 1941 and the Overland herald was dropped in 1942.

There is a picture of R-40-10 #40400 (blt '36) on p. 162 of the PFE book with the Overland herald, and a picture of R-40-20 #46445 (blt '45) on p. 170 without the Overland lettering in the UP shield. The two pictures of R-40-14's on p. 169 only show the left sides of cars and their SP heralds.

Thanks in advance,

John Hile


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:45 PM, john66h wrote:

Am I correct in assuming the non-aluminum PFE R-40-14 reefers wore
the UP Overland herald when new? What I have found, is that the
R-40-14's were built in 1941 and the Overland herald was dropped in
1942.

There is a picture of R-40-10 #40400 (blt '36) on p. 162 of the PFE
book with the Overland herald, and a picture of R-40-20 #46445 (blt
'45) on p. 170 without the Overland lettering in the UP shield.
The two pictures of R-40-14's on p. 169 only show the left sides of
cars and their SP heralds.
John, Tony Thompson will doubtless have more to say on this, but I
have a photo from the Arnold Menke collection of R-40-14 PFE 45000 at
Bayshore, CA in 12/45 which appears to be in weathered original paint
(it had been reweighed but not repainted at Tucson in 4/45) and the
UP herald does NOT have the Overland legend; it is the post Overland
plain red/white/blue shield.


Richard Hendrickson


Dick Harley
 

On Tue Feb 9, 2010 John Hile asked:

>>Am I correct in assuming the non-aluminum PFE R-40-14 reefers wore
the UP Overland herald when new?
<<

To which Richard Hendrickson replied, stating that he had a 12/45
photo of an R-40-14 without the "Overland" banner on the UP medallion.

While I do not have a photo (in fact, I have darn few R-40-14 photos
compared to R-40-10s and R-40-20s), I do have some evidence that I
think is rather compelling, which leads me to believe that the
R-40-14s did have the "Overland" banner on the UP medallion when they
were new.

First of all, the UP medallion was, of course, controlled by the
Union Pacific. Their corporate website has a history of the UP
Medallion. For this era, see:
http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/history/uplogo/logo07.shtml
This site says that the medallion without the "Overland" banner was
not developed until May 1942. My collection of UP Timetables pretty
much confirms that. The January 25, 1942 (revised to 2-15-42) UP
public timetable still has the banner. I don't have any of the April
5, 1942 issues, but the website has a photo of one showing the "Pearl
Harbor" medallion on the cover. The July 1, 1942 public timetable
has the medallion without the banner.

Next, the drawing for the UP medallion (to be used on refrigerator
cars) without the "Overland" banner is shown in Phil Da Costa's book
on page 36. It is UP drawing 303-C-3073 rev B, issued in July 1942.
The revision note mentions redrawing the medallion and omitting "The
Overland Route".

Finally, the PFE book says that the R-40-14s (#44701 to 45700) were
built by PC&F in 1941. I have copies of car cards for 44739 (built
8-11-41) and 45698 (built 12-20-41) that put the R-40-14 delivery in
the second half of 1941.

So, we have delivery of all the R-40-14 class at a time when UP
itself was still actively using "The Overland Route" banner on its
medallion. The R-40-14 class delivery was also completed before a
drawing was prepared for a refrigerator car UP medallion without the
banner. That leads me to believe the "Overland" banner was present
on the R-40-14 class cars.

Like I said at the start, I don't have a photo to confirm it, but I
believe the UP medallion WITH "The Overland Route" banner was used on
the PFE R-40-14 cars when new. Certainly, photos contrary to that
would be new evidence that would cause me to rethink that position.

Other evidence, thoughts and opinions are certainly welcome.

Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach, CA


Tim O'Connor
 

Dick Harley wrote

While I do not have a photo (in fact, I have darn few R-40-14 photos
compared to R-40-10s and R-40-20s)
Indeed there are very few published pictures of R-40-14's and almost
none online. I just checked the Fallen Flags web site and unless I am
looking in the wrong place, there is a ridiculously paltry selection
of PFE photos of any kind -- a few PFE, one UPFE, and a bunch of SPFE
shots mostly by one contributor of the latest ten years.

Tim O'


railwayman <stevelucas3@...>
 

I have to question the accuracy of information with respect to the Union Pacific herald on the UP website when they fail to mention their own "We Will Deliver..." slogan that was applied to many of their cars in recent years.

While this slogan became a joke about UP service with the melt-down that followed UP's takeover of the SP, the fact that UP does not mention this very recent slogan makes one question the veracity of other historical info on their site. I submit this as a caution to relying on corporate sites for historical info, as often a corporation will revise its own published history to cast it in a favourable light.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Dick Harley <dick.harley4up@...> wrote:

On Tue Feb 9, 2010 John Hile asked:

>>Am I correct in assuming the non-aluminum PFE R-40-14 reefers wore
the UP Overland herald when new?
<<

To which Richard Hendrickson replied, stating that he had a 12/45
photo of an R-40-14 without the "Overland" banner on the UP medallion.

While I do not have a photo (in fact, I have darn few R-40-14 photos
compared to R-40-10s and R-40-20s), I do have some evidence that I
think is rather compelling, which leads me to believe that the
R-40-14s did have the "Overland" banner on the UP medallion when they
were new.

First of all, the UP medallion was, of course, controlled by the
Union Pacific. Their corporate website has a history of the UP
Medallion. For this era, see:
http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/history/uplogo/logo07.shtml
This site says that the medallion without the "Overland" banner was
not developed until May 1942. My collection of UP Timetables pretty
much confirms that. The January 25, 1942 (revised to 2-15-42) UP
public timetable still has the banner. I don't have any of the April
5, 1942 issues, but the website has a photo of one showing the "Pearl
Harbor" medallion on the cover. The July 1, 1942 public timetable
has the medallion without the banner.

Next, the drawing for the UP medallion (to be used on refrigerator
cars) without the "Overland" banner is shown in Phil Da Costa's book
on page 36. It is UP drawing 303-C-3073 rev B, issued in July 1942.
The revision note mentions redrawing the medallion and omitting "The
Overland Route".

Finally, the PFE book says that the R-40-14s (#44701 to 45700) were
built by PC&F in 1941. I have copies of car cards for 44739 (built
8-11-41) and 45698 (built 12-20-41) that put the R-40-14 delivery in
the second half of 1941.

So, we have delivery of all the R-40-14 class at a time when UP
itself was still actively using "The Overland Route" banner on its
medallion. The R-40-14 class delivery was also completed before a
drawing was prepared for a refrigerator car UP medallion without the
banner. That leads me to believe the "Overland" banner was present
on the R-40-14 class cars.

Like I said at the start, I don't have a photo to confirm it, but I
believe the UP medallion WITH "The Overland Route" banner was used on
the PFE R-40-14 cars when new. Certainly, photos contrary to that
would be new evidence that would cause me to rethink that position.

Other evidence, thoughts and opinions are certainly welcome.

Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach, CA






Dick Harley
 

Steve Lucas writes:
>>"I have to question the accuracy of information with respect to
the Union Pacific herald on the UP website when they fail to mention
their own ... slogan ..."
He continues with:
"... the fact that UP does not mention this very recent slogan makes
one question the veracity of other historical info on their site."
<<

Well Steve, I don't recall that UP medallion history website
mentioning ANY of the multitude of slogans that UP has used over the
past 140+ years, unless they were actually in the logo. So I don't
see how the absence of a particular slogan affects the veracity of
the information presented. The site is titled "History of the Union
Pacific Logo", and that is what it is. So far, I have found no
historical errors in it. If you see any, please let us all know where.

I believe I also provided two additional pieces of corroborating data
for the medallion history in 1941-42. Are you questioning the
accuracy of all of that? If so, please share your data to the contrary.

FWIW, UP used the word "medallion" on their engineering drawings.
The company also used the words "shield" and "logo", but never have I
seen any UP document refer to a "herald". Did any railroad use the
word "herald", or is it another modeler invention?

Aiming for historical accuracy,
Dick Harley


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Dick Harley writes:

Aiming for historical accuracy,
Which, of course, is a very admirable goal. I'll let Steve speak for himself but, having spent a few hours myself observing UP...and other railroad's rules, regulations, standards, directions, specifications, etc. [ big word..etc. ], I have noticed that at times the railroad did something a bit different from a standard. This is particularly true with regard to painting. OTOH, all too often all we have to go on is a standard. IOW, with regard to painting, we don't really know if directions might have been sent to a paint shop to do something different from the known standard specification. Hence, the silver colored trim on a Big Boy's running board and wheel rims. Was this done for some PR activity? Did the paint shop do it on their own or were they directed to? The point being that I'm always prepared to not be surprised to see something unexpected....nor do I assume that UP workers followed the exact standard or specification governing some aspect. Photos are good things.

With other railroads...Southern is one example...certain elements of steam locomotives were done in ways unique to a particular shop. With UP, while standardization seems to have been a goal all the way back to Harriman days, photos of 2-10-2's seem to show that each had its own pipe arrangement. It is not clear to me if this was shop dependent.

Mike Brock


Tim Meyer
 

The Chicago North Western called it a Trade Mark later on they called it a Monogram.

The Chicago Great Western called it a Trade Mark

Tim


FWIW, UP used the word "medallion" on their engineering drawings.
The company also used the words "shield" and "logo", but never have I
seen any UP document refer to a "herald". Did any railroad use the
word "herald", or is it another modeler invention?

Aiming for historical accuracy,
Dick Harley


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

M&StL only used "mongram" in documents I have found so far.
Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., "fltenwheeler" <floridatenwheeler@...> wrote:

The Chicago North Western called it a Trade Mark later on they called it a Monogram.

The Chicago Great Western called it a Trade Mark

Tim


Schuyler Larrabee
 

As far as I know, the ERIE used "Herald" as the nomenclature for the
diamond.

SGL


FWIW, UP used the word "medallion" on their engineering drawings.
The company also used the words "shield" and "logo", but never have I
seen any UP document refer to a "herald". Did any railroad use the
word "herald", or is it another modeler invention?

Aiming for historical accuracy,
Dick Harley







E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)
Database version: 6.14350
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/


Charles Hladik
 

I think that the "Green Mountain Gateway" herald was called a herald on
the Rutland.
Chuck Hladik

In a message dated 2/14/2010 11:52:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cepropst@... writes:




"Medallion" Is the term used by EMD on the painting and styling diagrams
for M&StL and CGW Fs.
Clark Propst





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

"Medallion" Is the term used by EMD on the painting and styling diagrams for M&StL and CGW Fs.
Clark Propst


railwayman <stevelucas3@...>
 

Dick--

First, my posting is NOT a personal criticism directed at you. It is simply a note of caution regarding the use of corporate websites for info. Any corporation has an interest in presenting it in the best possible light. Ford does not mention the Edsel on its website--

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/heritage/vehicles

Which does not mean that the vehicle never existed.

Keep in mind that the "We Will Deliver" tagline immediately preceded "Building America".

The "Building America" "logotype", or as known in advertising, a "tagline" is presented adjoining the UP logo on this site under "2002 Today Shield and Building America SM" on that web page.

Likewise, the 1897 Harriman Shield on this website on the page shows the "World's Pictorial Line" tagline under the shield, not as a part of it.

These are but two instances of a tagline accompanying the shield as a part of UP logos.

The convenient omission of any mention of the circa 1996-2001 "We Will Deliver" tagline makes one wonder what other info has been "tweaked" over the years.

Again, caution is warranted when relying on corporate sites as a source of info. You have corroborated what is on the website with other info that you have--good. But to rely on a corporate website alone for historical info is fraught with peril for a serious historian.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Dick Harley <dick.harley4up@...> wrote:

Steve Lucas writes:
>>"I have to question the accuracy of information with respect to
the Union Pacific herald on the UP website when they fail to mention
their own ... slogan ..."
He continues with:
"... the fact that UP does not mention this very recent slogan makes
one question the veracity of other historical info on their site."
<<

Well Steve, I don't recall that UP medallion history website
mentioning ANY of the multitude of slogans that UP has used over the
past 140+ years, unless they were actually in the logo. So I don't
see how the absence of a particular slogan affects the veracity of
the information presented. The site is titled "History of the Union
Pacific Logo", and that is what it is. So far, I have found no
historical errors in it. If you see any, please let us all know where.

I believe I also provided two additional pieces of corroborating data
for the medallion history in 1941-42. Are you questioning the
accuracy of all of that? If so, please share your data to the contrary.

Aiming for historical accuracy,
Dick Harley




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


John Hile
 

Thanks all.

I asked about the R-40-14 shield because on my shelf (for many years) has been an Intermountain R-40-23 kit, factory numbered and lettered as an R-40-20 and also sporting an Overland shield! I'm finally getting around to assessing what (if anything) can be done to make it a suitable model, ca. 1952-53.

It appears a possible option for this kit is to convert it into an R-40-14. Install Details West round-corner Dreadnaught ends, appropriate appliances, remove the Preco mechanical fan detail, and then change the number and class lettering, retaining the bulk of the factory lettering.

IIRC, only two R-40-14's are listed in the Jan. 1953 ORER as being equipped w/fans...electric. All of the R-40-20's are shown as fan-equipped, and I assume were repainted in later schemes when the fans were applied. With this in mind, is it appropriate to think an R-40-14 could still be wearing original paint and lettering ca. 1952-53?

I do have a pair of Champ red, white, and blue non-Overland shields, but have not compared the size to see if one of these will cover the factory-applied Overland shield. Perhaps a renumber to 45000 is the way to go (to be assured of the shield type) and then use the Champ decal.


John Hile


Paul Lyons
 

John,

PFE expert Tony Thompson is vacationing in New Zealand, so let me jump in here as sort of a groupie on PFE matters to him and Dick Harley. Although, I do not have, nor seen, the car cards for the two aluminmum R-40-14's, which would show the repaint dates, I have looked at many of the cards for all classes of PFE reefers and most cars were repainted at least once between 1947 and 1951. It is amazing how concentrated the effort was during this time frame. I have only found one wooden R-30-12 that made it to 1951 in original paint. So, the chance that one of these "high profile" cars making it all the way to 1952 without being re-painted is probably a million to one shot. Never say never, but I doubt it!

Paul Lyons
Laguna NIguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: john66h <john66h@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:14 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PFE R-40-14 UP Herald




Thanks all.

I asked about the R-40-14 shield because on my shelf (for many years) has been an Intermountain R-40-23 kit, factory numbered and lettered as an R-40-20 and also sporting an Overland shield! I'm finally getting around to assessing what (if anything) can be done to make it a suitable model, ca. 1952-53.

It appears a possible option for this kit is to convert it into an R-40-14. Install Details West round-corner Dreadnaught ends, appropriate appliances, remove the Preco mechanical fan detail, and then change the number and class lettering, retaining the bulk of the factory lettering.

IIRC, only two R-40-14's are listed in the Jan. 1953 ORER as being equipped w/fans...electric. All of the R-40-20's are shown as fan-equipped, and I assume were repainted in later schemes when the fans were applied. With this in mind, is it appropriate to think an R-40-14 could still be wearing original paint and lettering ca. 1952-53?

I do have a pair of Champ red, white, and blue non-Overland shields, but have not compared the size to see if one of these will cover the factory-applied Overland shield. Perhaps a renumber to 45000 is the way to go (to be assured of the shield type) and then use the Champ decal.

John Hile







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Paul Lyons
 

Before someone "jumps" on me R-30-9 NOT R-30-12!

Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: cobrapsl@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:34 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PFE R-40-14 UP Herald





John,

PFE expert Tony Thompson is vacationing in New Zealand, so let me jump in here as sort of a groupie on PFE matters to him and Dick Harley. Although, I do not have, nor seen, the car cards for the two aluminmum R-40-14's, which would show the repaint dates, I have looked at many of the cards for all classes of PFE reefers and most cars were repainted at least once between 1947 and 1951. It is amazing how concentrated the effort was during this time frame. I have only found one wooden R-30-12 that made it to 1951 in original paint. So, the chance that one of these "high profile" cars making it all the way to 1952 without being re-painted is probably a million to one shot. Never say never, but I doubt it!

Paul Lyons
Laguna NIguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: john66h <john66h@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:14 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PFE R-40-14 UP Herald

Thanks all.

I asked about the R-40-14 shield because on my shelf (for many years) has been an Intermountain R-40-23 kit, factory numbered and lettered as an R-40-20 and also sporting an Overland shield! I'm finally getting around to assessing what (if anything) can be done to make it a suitable model, ca. 1952-53.

It appears a possible option for this kit is to convert it into an R-40-14. Install Details West round-corner Dreadnaught ends, appropriate appliances, remove the Preco mechanical fan detail, and then change the number and class lettering, retaining the bulk of the factory lettering.

IIRC, only two R-40-14's are listed in the Jan. 1953 ORER as being equipped w/fans...electric. All of the R-40-20's are shown as fan-equipped, and I assume were repainted in later schemes when the fans were applied. With this in mind, is it appropriate to think an R-40-14 could still be wearing original paint and lettering ca. 1952-53?

I do have a pair of Champ red, white, and blue non-Overland shields, but have not compared the size to see if one of these will cover the factory-applied Overland shield. Perhaps a renumber to 45000 is the way to go (to be assured of the shield type) and then use the Champ decal.

John Hile

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


WILLIAM PARDIE
 

I have the same kit for the R-40-20 on my shelf that John has and periodically ponder what to do with it. So far
all I have done was purchase a set of proper ends for the R-40-20 from Stan Rydowski (Hope I got that right).
I'm interested if anyone else has done anything with tis car.

Bill Pardie


Dick Harley
 

For those considering making an R-40-14 or R-40-20 PFE reefer, the InterMountain R-40-10 kit is a much better starting point than their R-40-23, in my opinion. Unfortunately, InterMountain seems to have a mind all their own when it comes to decorating their products. (How else do you explain an R-40-23 body decorated as an Express BR-40-10, when you also have the R-40-10 body?) Some days they listen to inputs - some days they don't.

The reasons for my choice of the R-40-10 as a starting point are:
1) Door height and location of the door drip guard. The R-40-23 is noticeably higher, especially the drip guard.
2) Underframe - the -10, -14 and -20 were all riveted. The -23 was welded.
3) Grab irons - the R-40-10 already has the bracket grabs, as did the -14 and -20.
4) Car width - the -10, -14 and -20 were all 9'-5". The -23 was 9'-8+"
5) Truck centers - maybe a toss-up here. The -10 was 30'-8-1/2". The -14 and -20 were 30'-11". The -23 was 31'-2-3/4".

Regarding the Champ Decal's UP medallions, the 42" are fairly decent, but the 1946 45" medallion has the wrong style lettering and is the wrong shape. Microscale MC-4021 has the correct UP 42" medallions for the 1936 to 1946 time period - both "Overland" and non-Overland (drawn from the UP drawings). Microscale 87-414 has a pretty good 1946 UP 45" medallion. Whether any of them will cover any factory lettering is problematic, since many factory UP medallions are the wrong size and/or shape. Drawings for all of those medallions exist and can be used by those who care to make correct UP medallions.

With a lot of luck, the Microscale PFE decals will be substantially upgraded this year. (Yeah, I know, you've heard that before.)

I'll defer to Paul Lyons on knowledge gleaned from PFE car cards. I have collected copies of a bunch of them, but have yet to sit down and analyze them.

Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach, CA