Weathering Chalk


Paul Hillman
 

Just a quick question about chalks for weathering.

What is available for weathering-chalks that don't disappear after a flat-spray, final cover?

I use chalks, but, just trying to perfect the methods.

I've heard the latest theories;
A - Flat spray the car.
B - "Over-weather" using oil-based chalks. (Work in heavily)
C - Final flat-spray. (Expect to lose some color intensity)

My local hobby-shop "guru" told me about buying, oil-based, ladies eye-make-up at the local "Dollar Store" for 2 dollars instead of the (same) high-priced, "commercial stuff". The set he had was all earth-tones. (Good, economic idea???)

Not trying to diminish the modeling-suppliers. If their stuff is best, then I'll use it. (Pricy though)

Thanks, Paul Hillman


Thomas Baker
 

The question about using inexpensive ladies makeup, eye shadow, rouge, I don't know exactly what--has been something I've wondered about, too. Perhaps someone out there has experience with this.

I have used weathering chalks and find them very satisfactory, but I add that component after the flat spray. I rub whatever hue or combination of hues is desired, and it seems to stay without further spraying.

I am not sure whether the chalks are oil-based. I obtained mine from a local art store.

Tom


Charles Hladik
 

Chris,
Myself and many others are having great success with Bragdon
weathering powders. I believe that the rust colors (3) are actually powdered rust,
anyway they all adhere nicely and there is a good array of colors. See
_www.bragdonent.com_ (http://www.bragdonent.com)
Chuck Hladik

In a message dated 3/29/2010 5:02:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
chris_hillman@msn.com writes:




Just a quick question about chalks for weathering.

What is available for weathering-chalks that don't disappear after a
flat-spray, final cover?

I use chalks, but, just trying to perfect the methods.

I've heard the latest theories;
A - Flat spray the car.
B - "Over-weather" using oil-based chalks. (Work in heavily)
C - Final flat-spray. (Expect to lose some color intensity)

My local hobby-shop "guru" told me about buying, oil-based, ladies
eye-make-up at the local "Dollar Store" for 2 dollars instead of the (same)
high-priced, "commercial stuff". The set he had was all earth-tones. (Good,
economic idea???)

Not trying to diminish the modeling-suppliers. If their stuff is best,
then I'll use it. (Pricy though)

Thanks, Paul Hillman





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Jack Burgess
 

I've used pastel chalks (oil-based) for decades and never over-spray them
with Dullcote. However, I do my initial weathering with an airbrush, some
(such as sun-fading) when I initially air brush the model and the rest after
the decals have been applied and the car has been given a flat spray. I use
the pastels to provide additional color variations on the wheelsets and
trucks, on brake parts, and on other small details that I want to "pop" out
from the rest of the car. You can also use chalks to occasionally to
replicate lettering which has dissolved and starting to stain the side of
the car. I don't find a need to seal the car after applying this final
weathering since I don't handle my cars nor let anyone else do it and it is
limited to fine details. But, remember that most of the weathering (that
which would be most susceptible to handling) is done with an air brush.

A quick search on Amazon brought up a set of 36 Pentel oil-based chalks (the
same manufacturer of the set I use) which includes black, grey, white,
yellow, and rust (along with many others)...all the basic colors you need
for $10. Those chalks will give you and a friend enough chalk to last a
lifetime. I use a piece of sheet-rock metal sandpaper and scrape the chalks
onto it to create a pile of powder, saving each color of powder in a small
plastic 6-compartment storage box.

Bragdon Enterprises (www.bragdonent.com) sells some non-pastel materials
which a lot of modelers like. I have some but they are more expensive and I
like the fine control of the pastels better. But they might not be as
susceptible to coming off while handling.


Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

GUYZ,
 
 
           You can use cheap cosmetic colors from the ladies section if you like. I've used up the set my daughter had with good results. Some colors are very useful for streaking, or, staining on covered hoppers.  Let them dry for a couple days, then hit them with a dull finish to seal them.
Big box stores carry these sets, and are very cheap.
 
Fred Freitas

--- On Mon, 3/29/10, Thomas Baker <bakert@andrews.edu> wrote:


From: Thomas Baker <bakert@andrews.edu>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Weathering Chalk
To: "STMFC@yahoogroups.com" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, March 29, 2010, 6:10 AM


 





The question about using inexpensive ladies makeup, eye shadow, rouge, I don't know exactly what--has been something I've wondered about, too. Perhaps someone out there has experience with this.

I have used weathering chalks and find them very satisfactory, but I add that component after the flat spray. I rub whatever hue or combination of hues is desired, and it seems to stay without further spraying.

I am not sure whether the chalks are oil-based. I obtained mine from a local art store.

Tom


Jim Betz
 

Hi,

I've been using chalks for weathering for over 20 years now.
It's not the only weathering I do but very few cars go to the
layout without some chalk on them.
At first I applied the chalks dry and over sprayed them to
lock them in place. That works - but you have to first learn
how much chalk to apply because the over spray with dull coat
changes them - and the change depends upon the combination of
the color(s) of the car and the color of the chalk. Dry chalks
will show finger prints and also come off over time. Over
spraying is necessary.
I use a "wet chalk slurry" now. Almost always. I take some
chalk and scrape it to a powder into a small plastic container
(I prefer to use a model RR wheelset package cover). Then I
add water and a few drops of white glue (I use Krystal Klear
for this) and the smallest amount of kitchen detergent I can
put on the end of a toothpick (as a wetting agent). I mix
different colors of chalk (mostly "earth tones") until I get
the 'shade' I want (today). The white glue acts as a binder -
I use/prefer KK simply because it mixes in with the water so
much easier.
I apply the slurry to the model using an eye dropper and let
it flow ... and collect. Working just one 'face' of the model
at a time and letting them dry before changing faces. I have
been known to 'hurry' the drying process by using small pieces
of tissue and 'wicking/drawing off' the excess (just touch the
corner of a 1/2" square of tissue to the edge of the puddle).
With this process I do not 'need' to over spray and can
pretty much see what it will look like ... when the slurry
has evaporated out. If I have an un-prototypical clump of
chalk some where I just "rub it out" with my finger (after
it is fully dry!) ... always moving my finger in the 'down'
direction of the model.

There is -no- other weathering technique I like as well for
getting those clumps/concentrations of 'stuff' in the corners
and hollows. I especially like wet chalks on the roofs of
steam era freight cars. For the sides of the models I tend
to use washes of very thin weathering colors more these days.
That said - I also almost always do some weathering of
stuff like grabs and ladders by hand with a brush. And also
almost always do some washes (either acrylic or lacquer -
which have -very- different 'action' on the model!).

I always like to finish a model by over spraying what I call
a "blending coat" of weathering colors (darker on top, lighter
on the bottom). It de-emphasizes the individual techniques
(hand brush, chalk slurry, washes) and makes them 'work' (for
me). The last thing I do is almost always some kind of
dull coat ... if the model needs it. "No shiny new paint
jobs on -MY- freight cars!" YMMV.
- Jim


SUVCWORR@...
 

I have used make-up with varying degrees of success. Old mascara tubes are good for oil streaks especially if you remove several rows of bristle from the brush. I do like to use "metallic light browns eye shadow for sand reside. It gives a slight silica sparkle to the weathering. Some make-up will not take an final flat spray well. The most use if from eyeshadow, mascara, eyebrow pencils. I have never bought make-up for this purpose. AT one time or another I have asked most of female family members for their discarded make-up to be used for weathering so they generally just appear This method keeps a variety of colors available and the price is right.

One other benefit of considering make-up is the wide variety of brushes and sponges available even if you don't use them with make-up but with chalks. They each give a different texture to your weathering.

In addition to make-up I use oil-based artist chalk and powder chalks such as Doc O'Brien's. The powder chalks must be sealed to the car. Wth make-up and oil-based chalks this is optional. While they will show finger prints, not sealing also gives you the advantage of changing the look of the car by removing, adding to or changing the texture of the weathering. This helps to counteract the "haven't I see that car every session for the past 5 years" effect.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Baker <bakert@andrews.edu>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Mar 29, 2010 6:10 am
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Weathering Chalk





The question about using inexpensive ladies makeup, eye shadow, rouge, I don't
know exactly what--has been something I've wondered about, too. Perhaps someone
out there has experience with this.

I have used weathering chalks and find them very satisfactory, but I add that
component after the flat spray. I rub whatever hue or combination of hues is
desired, and it seems to stay without further spraying.

I am not sure whether the chalks are oil-based. I obtained mine from a local
art store.

Tom





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Rich Orr wrote:
. . . not sealing also gives you the advantage of changing the look of the car by removing, adding to or changing the texture of the weathering. This helps to counteract the "haven't I see that car every session for the past 5 years" effect.
Gee, Rich, I've solved that problem by having way more cars than can fit on the layout, thus necessitating regular and frequent swapping. <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


frograbbit602
 

Paul, I have used eye-shadow makeup for quite a few years. In my opion, eye-shadow makeup is similar to using Bradgon weathering powders. It does not need to be coated after applied; however, if coated it does not disappear as easily as chalks. I have applied eye shadow to various car surfaces, shiny, flat, etc. with, in my opinion and that of other modelers, excellent results. In addition to earth tones other colors can be used. For example, white can be used for lime residue from cleaning stock cars. I normally buy the eye makeup at the local drug store even if the cost is greater as I have found that the cheap makeup I have purchased from various sources upon opening find it can be dried out, turned to a powder or cakes and does not work well.

Lester Breuer

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "behillman" <chris_hillman@...> wrote:

Just a quick question about chalks for weathering.

What is available for weathering-chalks that don't disappear after a flat-spray, final cover?

I use chalks, but, just trying to perfect the methods.

I've heard the latest theories;
A - Flat spray the car.
B - "Over-weather" using oil-based chalks. (Work in heavily)
C - Final flat-spray. (Expect to lose some color intensity)

My local hobby-shop "guru" told me about buying, oil-based, ladies eye-make-up at the local "Dollar Store" for 2 dollars instead of the (same) high-priced, "commercial stuff". The set he had was all earth-tones. (Good, economic idea???)

Not trying to diminish the modeling-suppliers. If their stuff is best, then I'll use it. (Pricy though)

Thanks, Paul Hillman


Paul Hillman
 

Jim,

The idea of using white glue as a binder with dry chalk is a good approach to try. It seems that the "hazing" effect of the colored liquid would flow randomly quite well. The idea of having some kind of binder for the chalk-powder is what's needed for final over-spraying.

Bragdon Co. weathering dust has some kind of "dry-binder" added to it, they say.

I think also, the ladies makeup thing is worth a try.

Thanks, Paul Hillman

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Betz<mailto:jimbetz@jimbetz.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 12:10 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Weathering Chalk



Hi,


I use a "wet chalk slurry" now. Almost always. I take some
chalk and scrape it to a powder into a small plastic container
(I prefer to use a model RR wheelset package cover). Then I
add water and a few drops of white glue (I use Krystal Klear
for this) and the smallest amount of kitchen detergent I can
put on the end of a toothpick (as a wetting agent). I mix
different colors of chalk (mostly "earth tones") until I get
the 'shade' I want (today). The white glue acts as a binder -
I use/prefer KK simply because it mixes in with the water so
much easier.


Jim Betz


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Lester Breuer wrote:
In addition to earth tones other colors can be used. For example, white can be used for lime residue from cleaning stock cars.
Lime was sometimes used in transit to control maggots in the car bedding, but after EVERY trip stock cars were steam cleaned. They did NOT build up lime deposits, and indeed shippers could refuse cars which were not clean. I think modelers typically overdo stock car weathering (though I have no idea if Lester falls into this category).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 29, 2010, at 7:52 AM, RUTLANDRS@aol.com wrote:

Chris,
Myself and many others are having great success with Bragdon
weathering powders. I believe that the rust colors (3) are
actually powdered rust,
anyway they all adhere nicely and there is a good array of colors.
See
_www.bragdonent.com_ (http://www.bragdonent.com)
Chuck Hladik
I'll second Chuck's recommendation. I've had very good results using
Bragdon chalks and airbrushing clear flat finish over them. It seems
pointless to experiment with drug store cosmetics when Bragdon's
products are intended for the purpose, readily available from most
well-stocked dealers (if not from yours, try Des Plaines, Caboose,
Train Station etc. on the net) and IMHO reasonably priced.

Richard Hendrickson


Tim O'Connor
 

I love these powders, and just plain old pigments (very cheap) from
MicroMark. At Naperville a dealer was selling AIM powders which I think
are exactly the same as Bragdon powders. I got some new ones, like gray
and white. http://www.aimprodx.com/index.php?page=powders

I have a plastic low side shoe box into which I've poured small piles
of about a dozen colors. When I'm weathering a model with rust or india
ink washes, I'll reach into the box with my damp brush and pick up some
pigment, and this gets added to the wash. I love doing the rusty, filthy
interiors of hoppers and gondolas this way. Every one comes out unique.

Another item is real rust powder, collected from a scrap yard. A spray
of Dullcote from an aerosol can into the interior of a gondola, and then
sprinkle the powder. Real rust has many color variations and different
sizes so the effect is very realistic. With the bigger rust chunks I
can make removable loads.

Tim O'Connor

http://www.bragdonent.com
Chuck Hladik

I'll second Chuck's recommendation. I've had very good results using
Bragdon chalks and airbrushing clear flat finish over them. It seems
pointless to experiment with drug store cosmetics when Bragdon's
products are intended for the purpose, readily available from most
well-stocked dealers (if not from yours, try Des Plaines, Caboose,
Train Station etc. on the net) and IMHO reasonably priced.
Richard Hendrickson


al_brown03
 

A question for those who weather with real rust: do you have any trouble with it getting into motors?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I love these powders, and just plain old pigments (very cheap) from
MicroMark. At Naperville a dealer was selling AIM powders which I think
are exactly the same as Bragdon powders. I got some new ones, like gray
and white. http://www.aimprodx.com/index.php?page=powders

I have a plastic low side shoe box into which I've poured small piles
of about a dozen colors. When I'm weathering a model with rust or india
ink washes, I'll reach into the box with my damp brush and pick up some
pigment, and this gets added to the wash. I love doing the rusty, filthy
interiors of hoppers and gondolas this way. Every one comes out unique.

Another item is real rust powder, collected from a scrap yard. A spray
of Dullcote from an aerosol can into the interior of a gondola, and then
sprinkle the powder. Real rust has many color variations and different
sizes so the effect is very realistic. With the bigger rust chunks I
can make removable loads.

Tim O'Connor





http://www.bragdonent.com
Chuck Hladik

I'll second Chuck's recommendation. I've had very good results using
Bragdon chalks and airbrushing clear flat finish over them. It seems
pointless to experiment with drug store cosmetics when Bragdon's
products are intended for the purpose, readily available from most
well-stocked dealers (if not from yours, try Des Plaines, Caboose,
Train Station etc. on the net) and IMHO reasonably priced.
Richard Hendrickson


Tim O'Connor
 

Al

No, it is glued in place. A "live load" might be a problem.

Tim O'

At 3/29/2010 07:25 PM Monday, you wrote:
A question for those who weather with real rust: do you have any trouble with it getting into motors?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


frograbbit602
 

Tony, When I said lime residue I did not know what other term to use to describe the white color that may show on stock cars, usually on the lower third that was due ( I have read ) to the cleaning with lime. Westerfield in his Milw stock car plan sheet states you might want to spray the interior of the stock car white to represent the cleaning with lime. Therefore, on some of my stock cars I have used the white eye-shadow to put a light color of white near the floor area to represent this coloring which I called residue.

Lester Breuer

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Lester Breuer wrote:
In addition to earth tones other colors can be used. For example,
white can be used for lime residue from cleaning stock cars.
Lime was sometimes used in transit to control maggots in the
car bedding, but after EVERY trip stock cars were steam cleaned. They
did NOT build up lime deposits, and indeed shippers could refuse cars
which were not clean. I think modelers typically overdo stock car
weathering (though I have no idea if Lester falls into this category).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Lester Breuer wrote:
Tony, When I said lime residue I did not know what other term to use to describe the white color that may show on stock cars, usually on the lower third that was due ( I have read ) to the cleaning with lime. Westerfield in his Milw stock car plan sheet states you might want to spray the interior of the stock car white to represent the cleaning with lime. Therefore, on some of my stock cars I have used the white eye-shadow to put a light color of white near the floor area to represent this coloring which I called residue.
Steam cleaning naturally faded the paint, and many photos of the outside of stock cars show faded paint. The inside, if painted, would be the same. Whether there is any white staining, I don't know. But in any case, the lime isn't really a cleaning process, though it could be called a disinfecting process.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


lrkdbn
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
, but after EVERY trip stock cars were steam cleaned. They
did NOT build up lime deposits, and indeed shippers could refuse cars
which were not clean. I think modelers typically overdo stock car
weathering (though I have no idea if Lester falls into this category).

Tony, I have in service pictures of NYC stock cars showing considerable white residue on their sides,also CN and CP stock cars were painted white on the lower part of their sides presumably to hide these stains.I seem to recall reading somewhere that lime was applied
as a cleaning method in cold weather.
Larry King
<lrkdbn@aol.com>


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Larry King wrote:
Tony, I have in service pictures of NYC stock cars showing considerable white residue on their sides,also CN and CP stock cars were painted white on the lower part of their sides presumably to hide these stains.I seem to recall reading somewhere that lime was applied as a cleaning method in cold weather.
I didn't mean to say there are no photos of white stains, only that it's not typical. I too have heard that CN and CP story, but don't know that it's true, nor was it done by US railroads. Lime kills fly eggs and maggots. It doesn't clean up bedding (straw; sand for hogs) stained with excreta. As I said, shippers could and would reject any car not clean for THEIR stock to go to market. Sprinkling some lime on dirty bedding would most certainly not meet that standard.
Someone on the list may be more of an expert on stock handling than me (wouldn't be hard), and if so, I'd welcome clarification or expansion of this topic.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


John <jriddell@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Larry King wrote:
Tony, I have in service pictures of NYC stock cars showing
considerable white residue on their sides,also CN and CP stock cars
were painted white on the lower part of their sides presumably to
hide these stains.I seem to recall reading somewhere that lime was
applied as a cleaning method in cold weather.
I didn't mean to say there are no photos of white stains, only
that it's not typical. I too have heard that CN and CP story, but
don't know that it's true, nor was it done by US railroads. Lime kills
fly eggs and maggots. It doesn't clean up bedding (straw; sand for
hogs) stained with excreta. As I said, shippers could and would reject
any car not clean for THEIR stock to go to market. Sprinkling some
lime on dirty bedding would most certainly not meet that standard.
Someone on the list may be more of an expert on stock handling
than me (wouldn't be hard), and if so, I'd welcome clarification or
expansion of this topic.
Tony,

The CNR's 1927 issue of "Rules and Government Regulations Governing the Transportation of Livestock" states on page 14 "Stock cars used for the conveyance of live stock shall be cleansed and disinfected at such times and places as the Minister may order. Such disinfection shall be done by the thorough cleansing of the car and its subsequent white-washing with lime and carbonic acid in the porportion of 1 pound commercial carbolic acid to 5 gallons of lime-wash or such other process as may be approved by the Veterinary Director General." This was a federal requirement applicable to every stock car in the country.

A 1910 photo published in a 1991 RMC shows this process. A flat car carrying barrels of lime wash is pulled along side a string of stock cars. The lime wash is sprayed on the inside of the stock car from the flat car using an air line from the locomotive.

Another specification was: "Where in the opinion of an inspector, wet cleaning and disinfection of a road vehicle is not possible due to freezing temperatures, it will be in order to permit "dry cleaning". This consists of: (a) removing all gross manure etc., (b) sprinkling the area with lime or applying new bedding."

Many thousands of stock cars of the CNR, CPR and ONR had their lower slated sides painted white to minimize the messy appearance of the white lime spray. However several railways, TH&B, NAR, PGE, did not paint their car sides white. The result was that most photos of their stock cars show messy looking lower sides.

The Nov 1991 RMC has many photos.

John Rifddell