Wine cars


Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
 

A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize and wondered, were these cars used everywhere in interchange or were they in dedicated service in the locale of some California winery whose name they carried?

Andy Miller


michael bishop <goldrod_1@...>
 

Andrew,
The Chateau Martin cars went from Cal to NY.
http://coastdaylight.com/chatmart/cmwx_roster_1.html
 
As did many of the other wineries cars did at one time.
 
Michael

--- On Sat, 4/3/10, Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@rcn.com> wrote:


From: Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@rcn.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Wine cars
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 8:24 PM


 



A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize and wondered, were these cars used everywhere in interchange or were they in dedicated service in the locale of some California winery whose name they carried?

Andy Miller

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 3, 2010, at 8:24 PM, Andrew Miller wrote:

A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize and
wondered, were these cars used everywhere in interchange or were
they in dedicated service in the locale of some California winery
whose name they carried?
Andy, you didn't indicate the nature of the wine car (insulated ICC
203 tank car, non-insulated tank car, or express reefer with tanks),
or the shipper for which it was lettered. With more information, I
can give you a more detailed and confident response; I've developed a
Power Point clinic on wine cars for prototype modelers' meets which
includes ca. 60 photos and much historical information. However, in
general, though some wine cars were in more or less local service,
many carried bulk wine from California to bottlers all over the
country - everywhere from St. Louis and Chicago to New Jersey, New
York City, and even relatively rural Maine. You wouldn't have seen
them on branch lines unless there was a consignee on the branch, but
there were several hundred of them and they were photographed en
route on east-west main lines or being switched at major terminals
like Chicago and Kansas City. Keep in mind, however, that premium
table wines were bottled and shipped by the case in refrigerator or
insulated box cars; only the cheaper wines, often fortified with
brandy, were shipped in bulk - in terms of today's brands, think
Night Train and Thunderbird, not Kendall-Jackson or Louis Martini.

Richard Hendrickson


Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
 

Thanx Mike. That's what I need to know.


regards,

Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----
From: michael bishop
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine cars



Andrew,
The Chateau Martin cars went from Cal to NY.
http://coastdaylight.com/chatmart/cmwx_roster_1.html

As did many of the other wineries cars did at one time.

Michael


--- On Sat, 4/3/10, Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@rcn.com> wrote:

From: Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@rcn.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Wine cars
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 8:24 PM



A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize and wondered, were these cars used everywhere in interchange or were they in dedicated service in the locale of some California winery whose name they carried?

Andy Miller

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
 

Richard,

It is the Red Caboose HO kit for a wooden express milk car with tanks. I believe it is Chateau Mrtin, Night Train sounds good ;-)

regards,

Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine cars



On Apr 3, 2010, at 8:24 PM, Andrew Miller wrote:

> A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize and
> wondered, were these cars used everywhere in interchange or were
> they in dedicated service in the locale of some California winery
> whose name they carried?

Andy, you didn't indicate the nature of the wine car (insulated ICC
203 tank car, non-insulated tank car, or express reefer with tanks),
or the shipper for which it was lettered. With more information, I
can give you a more detailed and confident response; I've developed a
Power Point clinic on wine cars for prototype modelers' meets which
includes ca. 60 photos and much historical information. However, in
general, though some wine cars were in more or less local service,
many carried bulk wine from California to bottlers all over the
country - everywhere from St. Louis and Chicago to New Jersey, New
York City, and even relatively rural Maine. You wouldn't have seen
them on branch lines unless there was a consignee on the branch, but
there were several hundred of them and they were photographed en
route on east-west main lines or being switched at major terminals
like Chicago and Kansas City. Keep in mind, however, that premium
table wines were bottled and shipped by the case in refrigerator or
insulated box cars; only the cheaper wines, often fortified with
brandy, were shipped in bulk - in terms of today's brands, think
Night Train and Thunderbird, not Kendall-Jackson or Louis Martini.

Richard Hendrickson


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 4, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Andrew Miller wrote:

Richard,

It is the Red Caboose HO kit for a wooden express milk car with
tanks. I believe it is Chateau Martin....
Chateau Martin cars ran in dedicated service from San Martin,
California (north of Hollister, south of San Jose) to New York City.
Based on the sightings I know about, the route was apparently San
Martin to Ogden via the Southern Pacific, Ogden to Chicago via the
Union Pacific and Chicago & Northwestern, and Chicago to New York via
the New York Central. However, that's informed speculation, not
documented fact. They may have gone to other destinations as well,
but I know of no evidence for that. Perhaps that will help your
friend decide whether he can run one on his model railroad with a
straight face. (Of course, he can run it anyway with a slightly
crooked face.)

Richard Hendrickson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Perhaps that will help your friend decide whether he can run one on his model railroad with a straight face. (Of course, he can run it anyway with a slightly crooked face.)
Isn't that what we call a "smile" . . . ?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


brianleppert@att.net
 

A Chateau Martin car was photographed at Scribner, WA (near Marshall, near Spokane), the first car in an eastbound Spokane, Portland & Seattle Ry. freight train. The photo appears in "The Northwest's Own Railway, vol.1", by Walter Grande.

The photo is undated. The lead diesel pulling the train was built in 1949. The other cars appear to be within our time frame.

Richard, my main interest is Southern Pacific over Donner Pass in 1949. Can I justify one of these awful colored cars in a freight train of that year? I kinda hope not.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

Chateau Martin cars ran in dedicated service from San Martin,
California to New York City.
They may have gone to other destinations as well,
but I know of no evidence for that.

Richard Hendrickson


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 5, 2010, at 8:08 AM, brianleppert@att.net wrote:

A Chateau Martin car was photographed at Scribner, WA (near
Marshall, near Spokane), the first car in an eastbound Spokane,
Portland & Seattle Ry. freight train. The photo appears in "The
Northwest's Own Railway, vol.1", by Walter Grande.
That's interesting, and a bit puzzling. Eastern Washington today is
a thriving wine-producing region, but in the steam era there were
hardly any wine grapes being grown there. So if that shipment
originated in California, what was its destination? Billings?
Fargo? There wasn't a lot of wine, even cheap wine, being consumed
in that part of the country in those days.

The photo is undated. The lead diesel pulling the train was built
in 1949. The other cars appear to be within our time frame.

Richard, my main interest is Southern Pacific over Donner Pass in
1949. Can I justify one of these awful colored cars in a freight
train of that year? I kinda hope not.
Brian, you could run one if you wanted to, but if you don't, it's not
as though they were as common on Donner Pass as, say, PFE reefers.
At that time, the CMWX entry in the ORERs showed only 25 cars. 5 of
these were non-insulated tank cars which probably didn't stray very
far from the winery; only 20 were the second-hand express reefers
with internal tanks. With a fleet that small scattered between
California and the east coast (and who knows where else, as suggested
by the photo you cite above), no one could regard the non-appearance
of CMWX cars on a Donner Pass layout as a significant omission.

Richard Hendrickson


leakinmywaders
 

Brian: Matt Herson called it to my attention first, and since I've seen other bits of evidence from photos and wheel reports that in small numbers, but over many years, some of these ex-Pfaudler CMWX wine cars saw routing eastbound over the NP with loads of wine for destination points east of the Twin Cities. As Richard said, no one would question their absence. Along with a few other oddballs like wandering SCL express reefers of mail, I'd put them in the category of cars that you could put in model consist once in a great while just to raise a few eyebrows, especially if you want to bait naysayers into a discussion about what "never happened."

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

On Apr 5, 2010, at 8:08 AM, brianleppert@... wrote:

A Chateau Martin car was photographed at Scribner, WA (near
Marshall, near Spokane), the first car in an eastbound Spokane,
Portland & Seattle Ry. freight train. The photo appears in "The
Northwest's Own Railway, vol.1", by Walter Grande.
That's interesting, and a bit puzzling. Eastern Washington today is
a thriving wine-producing region, but in the steam era there were
hardly any wine grapes being grown there. So if that shipment
originated in California, what was its destination? Billings?
Fargo? ...


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 5, 2010, at 6:03 PM, leakinmywaders wrote:

Brian: Matt Herson called it to my attention first, and since I've
seen other bits of evidence from photos and wheel reports that in
small numbers, but over many years, some of these ex-Pfaudler CMWX
wine cars saw routing eastbound over the NP with loads of wine for
destination points east of the Twin Cities....

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT
East of the twin cities? The only major cities east of the twin
cities are Milwaukee and Chicago, and one would think wine traffic to
those destinations which originated south of the Bay Area would have
been routed SP-UP-C&NW to Chicago, not SP-SP&S-NP via Portland and
Spokane. Unless Chateau-Martin supplied a wine wholesaler in
northern Wisconsin, and even then.... Very curious.

Richard Hendrickson


Matt Herson
 

Have finally located the reference to a CMWX traveling on the NP. The
citation is from Russ Strodtz from a posting on his Rail Freight Group.



"For example I've got a copy of a bill in front
of me for a CMWX car of wine. San Martin CA to Bronx NY.
No diversions involved, just a straight routing. It is
routed SP-SP&S-NP-CB&Q-NYC."



It would appear that on at least several occasions the cars were routed over
the NP but still from San Martin CA to the Bronx NY very close to Yankee
Stadium.



Matt Herson



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:16 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wine cars





On Apr 5, 2010, at 6:03 PM, leakinmywaders wrote:

Brian: Matt Herson called it to my attention first, and since I've
seen other bits of evidence from photos and wheel reports that in
small numbers, but over many years, some of these ex-Pfaudler CMWX
wine cars saw routing eastbound over the NP with loads of wine for
destination points east of the Twin Cities....

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT
East of the twin cities? The only major cities east of the twin
cities are Milwaukee and Chicago, and one would think wine traffic to
those destinations which originated south of the Bay Area would have
been routed SP-UP-C&NW to Chicago, not SP-SP&S-NP via Portland and
Spokane. Unless Chateau-Martin supplied a wine wholesaler in
northern Wisconsin, and even then.... Very curious.

Richard Hendrickson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Matt Herson wrote:
The citation is from Russ Strodtz from a posting on his Rail Freight Group.
"For example I've got a copy of a bill in front of me for a CMWX car of wine. San Martin CA to Bronx NY. No diversions involved, just a straight routing. It is routed SP-SP&S-NP-CB&Q-NYC."
This sounds like a shipper-specified routing. And remember that SP had a very friendly relation with NP, so that connection would have been acceptable. Why the shipper wanted a northern routing, though, is unclear, unless it was some aspect of dependable service. I've read that some routings were created specifically to solve the Chicago-handoff problem.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


leakinmywaders
 

Richard: All I have specific to that question is from one wheel report filed in Missoula, MT (4 August 1969, but germane to the discussion despite the late date): CMWX 1009, load of wine, 25 tons, Train 600 (Eastbound), destination Park Junction, Minneapolis. Park Junction was the end of the line on the NP, from which yard it would likely have been handed off to any of several roads pointed east or southeast (and a couple that handled local industries). Some wheel report entries carried more information on destination beyond NP rails; unfortunately this one did not. In general, destinations for eastbound interchange traffic handled through Park Junction (primarily by way of CB&Q, Milwaukee, and Rock Island) included greater Chicago, Michigan, Quebec, New York, Pennsylvania, New England, Delaware, Maryland.

Chateau-Martin had both west and east coast operations. I note from a fascinating and informative web site (http://coastdaylight.com/chatmart/cmwx_roster_1.html) the following:

****
In February 1948, 25 tank cars of Chateau Martin wine were shipped from the Waterford winery [on SP's Oakdale Branch] to the Bronx NY.
The trade magazine Wines & Vines reported in its March 1948 issue that the record trainload carried 200,000
gallons of wine. The train left Waterford behind 2-6-0 SP1770 with 15 cars of Port, 7 cars of Muscatel and 3 cars
of Dry Red Wine. A long banner on the side of the train proclaimed:

"LARGEST TRAINLOAD OF WINES in HISTORY
CHATEAU MARTIN WINERY in CALIFORNIA to N.Y.C."

***

This says nothing about routing, but does record that west-to-east coast shipments occurred.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
.. some of these ex-Pfaudler CMWX
wine cars saw routing eastbound over the NP with loads of wine for
destination points east of the Twin Cities....

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT
East of the twin cities? The only major cities east of the twin
cities are Milwaukee and Chicago, and one would think wine traffic to
those destinations which originated south of the Bay Area would have
been routed SP-UP-C&NW to Chicago, not SP-SP&S-NP via Portland and
Spokane. Unless Chateau-Martin supplied a wine wholesaler in
northern Wisconsin, and even then.... Very curious.

Richard Hendrickson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


leakinmywaders
 

Thanks, Matt, that does nail the routing. It's similar to what we see routinely for produce reefers.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Herson" <mherson@...> wrote:

Have finally located the reference to a CMWX traveling on the NP. The
citation is from Russ Strodtz from a posting on his Rail Freight Group.



"For example I've got a copy of a bill in front
of me for a CMWX car of wine. San Martin CA to Bronx NY.
No diversions involved, just a straight routing. It is
routed SP-SP&S-NP-CB&Q-NYC."

...


Jim Lancaster
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
Chateau Martin cars ran in dedicated service from San Martin,
California (north of Hollister, south of San Jose) to New York City.
Chateau Martin cars were also used between Waterford CA and New York City. Chateau Martin had a winery in Waterford and also performed car repairs there. Another winery that shipped wine for Chateau Martin was located at Mattei on the Santa Fe Visalia District.

Jim Lancaster


Paul <buygone@...>
 

On a move California to New York, you could route via the direct route
(overland) or the Northern or Southern route at no additional cost to the
shipper or consignee who ever was paying the bill. You all are forgetting
the free lunch. I would be willing to bet some silver tongued salesman for
SP&S, NP or CBQ did some entertaining with a lunch or dinner for that route.
Been there done that.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:15 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wine cars





Matt Herson wrote:
The citation is from Russ Strodtz from a posting on his Rail Freight
Group.
"For example I've got a copy of a bill in front of me for a CMWX car
of wine. San Martin CA to Bronx NY. No diversions involved, just a
straight routing. It is routed SP-SP&S-NP-CB&Q-NYC."
This sounds like a shipper-specified routing. And remember
that SP had a very friendly relation with NP, so that connection would
have been acceptable. Why the shipper wanted a northern routing,
though, is unclear, unless it was some aspect of dependable service.
I've read that some routings were created specifically to solve the
Chicago-handoff problem.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


leakinmywaders
 

While I favor Paul's "free lunch" explanation as most likely, and have also heard about routings designed to avoid Chicago handoffs, is there a possibility that in the summer months a northern routing might have been favored as possibly reducing heat stress on the cargo? After all these were insulated but not refrigerated cars, traveling all the way across the continent.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <buygone@...> wrote:
... I would be willing to bet some silver tongued salesman for
SP&S, NP or CBQ did some entertaining with a lunch or dinner for that route.
Been there done that.
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
...

Matt Herson wrote:
...
"... It is routed SP-SP&S-NP-CB&Q-NYC."
This sounds like a shipper-specified routing. And remember
that SP had a very friendly relation with NP, so that connection would
have been acceptable. Why the shipper wanted a northern routing,
though, is unclear, unless it was some aspect of dependable service.


Richard Hendrickson
 

Thanks to Chris Frissell and Jim Lancaster for their additional
information on the Chateau-Martin traffic. As usual, there's more to
this subject than appears at first.

Richard Hendrickson