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Wine cars
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Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize and wondered, were these cars used everywhere in interchange or were they in dedicated service in the locale of some California winery whose name they carried?
Andy Miller |
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michael bishop <goldrod_1@...>
Andrew,
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The Chateau Martin cars went from Cal to NY. http://coastdaylight.com/chatmart/cmwx_roster_1.html As did many of the other wineries cars did at one time. Michael --- On Sat, 4/3/10, Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...> wrote:
From: Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...> Subject: [STMFC] Wine cars To: STMFC@... Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 8:24 PM A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize and wondered, were these cars used everywhere in interchange or were they in dedicated service in the locale of some California winery whose name they carried? Andy Miller [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Richard Hendrickson
On Apr 3, 2010, at 8:24 PM, Andrew Miller wrote:
A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize andAndy, you didn't indicate the nature of the wine car (insulated ICC 203 tank car, non-insulated tank car, or express reefer with tanks), or the shipper for which it was lettered. With more information, I can give you a more detailed and confident response; I've developed a Power Point clinic on wine cars for prototype modelers' meets which includes ca. 60 photos and much historical information. However, in general, though some wine cars were in more or less local service, many carried bulk wine from California to bottlers all over the country - everywhere from St. Louis and Chicago to New Jersey, New York City, and even relatively rural Maine. You wouldn't have seen them on branch lines unless there was a consignee on the branch, but there were several hundred of them and they were photographed en route on east-west main lines or being switched at major terminals like Chicago and Kansas City. Keep in mind, however, that premium table wines were bottled and shipped by the case in refrigerator or insulated box cars; only the cheaper wines, often fortified with brandy, were shipped in bulk - in terms of today's brands, think Night Train and Thunderbird, not Kendall-Jackson or Louis Martini. Richard Hendrickson |
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Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
Thanx Mike. That's what I need to know.
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regards, Andy Miller ----- Original Message -----
From: michael bishop To: STMFC@... Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine cars Andrew, The Chateau Martin cars went from Cal to NY. http://coastdaylight.com/chatmart/cmwx_roster_1.html As did many of the other wineries cars did at one time. Michael --- On Sat, 4/3/10, Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...> wrote: From: Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...> Subject: [STMFC] Wine cars To: STMFC@... Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 8:24 PM A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize and wondered, were these cars used everywhere in interchange or were they in dedicated service in the locale of some California winery whose name they carried? Andy Miller [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
Richard,
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It is the Red Caboose HO kit for a wooden express milk car with tanks. I believe it is Chateau Mrtin, Night Train sounds good ;-) regards, Andy Miller ----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson To: STMFC@... Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:44 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine cars On Apr 3, 2010, at 8:24 PM, Andrew Miller wrote: > A club member recently won an HO wine car as a door prize and > wondered, were these cars used everywhere in interchange or were > they in dedicated service in the locale of some California winery > whose name they carried? Andy, you didn't indicate the nature of the wine car (insulated ICC 203 tank car, non-insulated tank car, or express reefer with tanks), or the shipper for which it was lettered. With more information, I can give you a more detailed and confident response; I've developed a Power Point clinic on wine cars for prototype modelers' meets which includes ca. 60 photos and much historical information. However, in general, though some wine cars were in more or less local service, many carried bulk wine from California to bottlers all over the country - everywhere from St. Louis and Chicago to New Jersey, New York City, and even relatively rural Maine. You wouldn't have seen them on branch lines unless there was a consignee on the branch, but there were several hundred of them and they were photographed en route on east-west main lines or being switched at major terminals like Chicago and Kansas City. Keep in mind, however, that premium table wines were bottled and shipped by the case in refrigerator or insulated box cars; only the cheaper wines, often fortified with brandy, were shipped in bulk - in terms of today's brands, think Night Train and Thunderbird, not Kendall-Jackson or Louis Martini. Richard Hendrickson |
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Richard Hendrickson
On Apr 4, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Andrew Miller wrote:
Richard,Chateau Martin cars ran in dedicated service from San Martin, California (north of Hollister, south of San Jose) to New York City. Based on the sightings I know about, the route was apparently San Martin to Ogden via the Southern Pacific, Ogden to Chicago via the Union Pacific and Chicago & Northwestern, and Chicago to New York via the New York Central. However, that's informed speculation, not documented fact. They may have gone to other destinations as well, but I know of no evidence for that. Perhaps that will help your friend decide whether he can run one on his model railroad with a straight face. (Of course, he can run it anyway with a slightly crooked face.) Richard Hendrickson |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Perhaps that will help your friend decide whether he can run one on his model railroad with a straight face. (Of course, he can run it anyway with a slightly crooked face.)Isn't that what we call a "smile" . . . ? Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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brianleppert@att.net
A Chateau Martin car was photographed at Scribner, WA (near Marshall, near Spokane), the first car in an eastbound Spokane, Portland & Seattle Ry. freight train. The photo appears in "The Northwest's Own Railway, vol.1", by Walter Grande.
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The photo is undated. The lead diesel pulling the train was built in 1949. The other cars appear to be within our time frame. Richard, my main interest is Southern Pacific over Donner Pass in 1949. Can I justify one of these awful colored cars in a freight train of that year? I kinda hope not. Brian Leppert Carson City, NV --- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
Chateau Martin cars ran in dedicated service from San Martin, |
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Richard Hendrickson
On Apr 5, 2010, at 8:08 AM, brianleppert@... wrote:
A Chateau Martin car was photographed at Scribner, WA (nearThat's interesting, and a bit puzzling. Eastern Washington today is a thriving wine-producing region, but in the steam era there were hardly any wine grapes being grown there. So if that shipment originated in California, what was its destination? Billings? Fargo? There wasn't a lot of wine, even cheap wine, being consumed in that part of the country in those days. Brian, you could run one if you wanted to, but if you don't, it's not as though they were as common on Donner Pass as, say, PFE reefers. At that time, the CMWX entry in the ORERs showed only 25 cars. 5 of these were non-insulated tank cars which probably didn't stray very far from the winery; only 20 were the second-hand express reefers with internal tanks. With a fleet that small scattered between California and the east coast (and who knows where else, as suggested by the photo you cite above), no one could regard the non-appearance of CMWX cars on a Donner Pass layout as a significant omission. Richard Hendrickson |
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leakinmywaders
Brian: Matt Herson called it to my attention first, and since I've seen other bits of evidence from photos and wheel reports that in small numbers, but over many years, some of these ex-Pfaudler CMWX wine cars saw routing eastbound over the NP with loads of wine for destination points east of the Twin Cities. As Richard said, no one would question their absence. Along with a few other oddballs like wandering SCL express reefers of mail, I'd put them in the category of cars that you could put in model consist once in a great while just to raise a few eyebrows, especially if you want to bait naysayers into a discussion about what "never happened."
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Chris Frissell Polson, MT --- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
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Richard Hendrickson
On Apr 5, 2010, at 6:03 PM, leakinmywaders wrote:
Brian: Matt Herson called it to my attention first, and since I'veEast of the twin cities? The only major cities east of the twin cities are Milwaukee and Chicago, and one would think wine traffic to those destinations which originated south of the Bay Area would have been routed SP-UP-C&NW to Chicago, not SP-SP&S-NP via Portland and Spokane. Unless Chateau-Martin supplied a wine wholesaler in northern Wisconsin, and even then.... Very curious. Richard Hendrickson |
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Matt Herson
Have finally located the reference to a CMWX traveling on the NP. The
citation is from Russ Strodtz from a posting on his Rail Freight Group. "For example I've got a copy of a bill in front of me for a CMWX car of wine. San Martin CA to Bronx NY. No diversions involved, just a straight routing. It is routed SP-SP&S-NP-CB&Q-NYC." It would appear that on at least several occasions the cars were routed over the NP but still from San Martin CA to the Bronx NY very close to Yankee Stadium. Matt Herson From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Richard Hendrickson Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:16 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wine cars On Apr 5, 2010, at 6:03 PM, leakinmywaders wrote: Brian: Matt Herson called it to my attention first, and since I'veEast of the twin cities? The only major cities east of the twin cities are Milwaukee and Chicago, and one would think wine traffic to those destinations which originated south of the Bay Area would have been routed SP-UP-C&NW to Chicago, not SP-SP&S-NP via Portland and Spokane. Unless Chateau-Martin supplied a wine wholesaler in northern Wisconsin, and even then.... Very curious. Richard Hendrickson |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Matt Herson wrote:
The citation is from Russ Strodtz from a posting on his Rail Freight Group.This sounds like a shipper-specified routing. And remember that SP had a very friendly relation with NP, so that connection would have been acceptable. Why the shipper wanted a northern routing, though, is unclear, unless it was some aspect of dependable service. I've read that some routings were created specifically to solve the Chicago-handoff problem. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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leakinmywaders
Richard: All I have specific to that question is from one wheel report filed in Missoula, MT (4 August 1969, but germane to the discussion despite the late date): CMWX 1009, load of wine, 25 tons, Train 600 (Eastbound), destination Park Junction, Minneapolis. Park Junction was the end of the line on the NP, from which yard it would likely have been handed off to any of several roads pointed east or southeast (and a couple that handled local industries). Some wheel report entries carried more information on destination beyond NP rails; unfortunately this one did not. In general, destinations for eastbound interchange traffic handled through Park Junction (primarily by way of CB&Q, Milwaukee, and Rock Island) included greater Chicago, Michigan, Quebec, New York, Pennsylvania, New England, Delaware, Maryland.
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Chateau-Martin had both west and east coast operations. I note from a fascinating and informative web site (http://coastdaylight.com/chatmart/cmwx_roster_1.html) the following: **** In February 1948, 25 tank cars of Chateau Martin wine were shipped from the Waterford winery [on SP's Oakdale Branch] to the Bronx NY. The trade magazine Wines & Vines reported in its March 1948 issue that the record trainload carried 200,000 gallons of wine. The train left Waterford behind 2-6-0 SP1770 with 15 cars of Port, 7 cars of Muscatel and 3 cars of Dry Red Wine. A long banner on the side of the train proclaimed: "LARGEST TRAINLOAD OF WINES in HISTORY CHATEAU MARTIN WINERY in CALIFORNIA to N.Y.C." *** This says nothing about routing, but does record that west-to-east coast shipments occurred. Chris Frissell Polson, MT --- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
.. some of these ex-Pfaudler CMWXwine cars saw routing eastbound over the NP with loads of wine forEast of the twin cities? The only major cities east of the twin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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leakinmywaders
Thanks, Matt, that does nail the routing. It's similar to what we see routinely for produce reefers.
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Chris Frissell Polson, MT --- In STMFC@..., "Matt Herson" <mherson@...> wrote:
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Jim Lancaster
--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
Chateau Martin cars ran in dedicated service from San Martin,Chateau Martin cars were also used between Waterford CA and New York City. Chateau Martin had a winery in Waterford and also performed car repairs there. Another winery that shipped wine for Chateau Martin was located at Mattei on the Santa Fe Visalia District. Jim Lancaster |
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Paul <buygone@...>
On a move California to New York, you could route via the direct route
(overland) or the Northern or Southern route at no additional cost to the shipper or consignee who ever was paying the bill. You all are forgetting the free lunch. I would be willing to bet some silver tongued salesman for SP&S, NP or CBQ did some entertaining with a lunch or dinner for that route. Been there done that. Paul C. Koehler _____ From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Anthony Thompson Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:15 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wine cars Matt Herson wrote: The citation is from Russ Strodtz from a posting on his Rail FreightThis sounds like a shipper-specified routing. And remember that SP had a very friendly relation with NP, so that connection would have been acceptable. Why the shipper wanted a northern routing, though, is unclear, unless it was some aspect of dependable service. I've read that some routings were created specifically to solve the Chicago-handoff problem. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep <mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> ress.com Publishers of books on railroad history |
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leakinmywaders
While I favor Paul's "free lunch" explanation as most likely, and have also heard about routings designed to avoid Chicago handoffs, is there a possibility that in the summer months a northern routing might have been favored as possibly reducing heat stress on the cargo? After all these were insulated but not refrigerated cars, traveling all the way across the continent.
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Chris Frissell Polson, MT --- In STMFC@..., "Paul" <buygone@...> wrote:
... I would be willing to bet some silver tongued salesman for SP&S, NP or CBQ did some entertaining with a lunch or dinner for that route.... Matt Herson wrote:... "... It is routed SP-SP&S-NP-CB&Q-NYC."This sounds like a shipper-specified routing. And remember |
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Richard Hendrickson
Thanks to Chris Frissell and Jim Lancaster for their additional
information on the Chateau-Martin traffic. As usual, there's more to this subject than appears at first. Richard Hendrickson |
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