ACF post-war box cars


Tim O'Connor
 

Richard, this is from my own notes on that article that I wrote
down more than 10 years ago --

MM 9/1990 pp.24-27 photo 1938 prototype ACFX #30000, drawings for 1948
standard design car, text, many photos ACL/ATSF/DT&I/C&EI/ERIE/CMO/ITC/
DL&W/NKP/RI/SERX/NJI&I/RDG/MKT -- but only the NKP & DT&I cars are
clearly of the standard design! Others follow AAR standard design
practices

But I don't know who is to blame -- the author, or the editor/publisher?
Certainly in 1990 I could barely tell one box car from another, so I know
I've learned a lot in the last 20 years!

Tim O'Connor

At 4/9/2010 12:22 PM Friday, you wrote:
No, I don't have any evidence to the contrary. The only evidence I have is that the series should not have been included among those described in the article. That is true of almost all the cars shown in the article. Apparently we've gotten a little smarter and better informed in the last 20 years.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Thanks, Richard!

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
richtownsend@...
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 12:22 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] ACF post-war box cars



No, I don't have any evidence to the contrary. The only evidence I have is
that the series should not have been included among those described in the
article. That is true of almost all the cars shown in the article. Apparently
we've gotten a little smarter and better informed in the last 20 years.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...
<mailto:elden.j.gatwood%40usace.army.mil> >
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:34 am
Subject: RE: [STMFC] ACF post-war box cars

Could you please clarify what you are discussing RE the PRR 600000 series? I
was not aware these had anything other than the standard SREM diagonal panel
roof and R/3/4 rolling pin ends. Do you have other evidence? I would love to
see that!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
Donald Ford
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 1:53 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] ACF post-war box cars

Richard
I got out that article and went into my files and the only car that seems to
be close to the ACF car is the Nickel Plate car as it has the same side lill
with no tabs and the same ends. Looking at the end of the roof it seams to
have diffenent seam where the end and the roof meet. thsi could be the "split
panel" roof. All the other cars are not close. The one series called out of
the PRR cars is a riveted car ( 600000-601999).
None of the pictures show enough of the roof to make a judgement. I may be
wrong in my guess about the roof on the NKP car as where the end and roof
meet on the drawing with the "split panel" roof showes a riveted seam. Of all
the pictures where you can see the ends only the NKP and DT&I cars have the
same ends like the ACF car.
Anyway confussing!
Don Ford
Kanab UT

________________________________
From: "richtownsend@... <mailto:richtownsend%40netscape.net>
<mailto:richtownsend%40netscape.net> "
<richtownsend@... <mailto:richtownsend%40netscape.net>
<mailto:richtownsend%40netscape.net> >
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 1:36:29 PM
Subject: [STMFC] ACF post-war box cars

There was a Todd Sullivan article in the Sept. 90 MM on ACF 1948 design box
cars. It talks about ACF using a "split panel" roof (as opposed to a
rectangular or diagonal panel -- similar to the "Despatch" roof) and
"dartnaught" ends on certain cars. The article specifically calls out DT&I
14000-14299 and 14300-14549, MKT 97001-97300 and 97301-97800, and Reading
107500-107999 and 10800 (sic) -108499. It includes plans for MKT 92548 (which
is not among those called as being of this particular design). The photos in
this article are confusing to say the least. The title illustration has
nothing to do with the subject of the article, being ACFX 30000 a 1938 welded
demonstrator car (I think). I can accept that since I have no intention of
modeling that car. But also included in the photos are the following:

ACL 24000-24999
ATSF 33500-33999
C&EI 66300-64299 (did they count backwards?) Erie 90500-91199 CMO 38300-39098
ITC 5700-5709 DL&W 54000-54999 RI 23000-23999 and 24000-24999 NKP 20200-20499
PRR 600000-601999 and 602000-603499 Reading ? (showing 109300) SERX 976-1027
NJI&I 100-199 MKT 91500-92000 (again outside the series called out in the
article)

Based on the photos in the article, the DL&W, NKP, SERX, and NJI&I are not
among the cars with the dartnaught ends and split panel roof. Looking at Ed
Hawkins's article in the 11/90 RMJ, it appears that the Erie cars are out,
too, as are the PRR 602000-603499. Another Ed Hawkins article, from the 10/90
RMJ, seems to rule out others (ATSF, C&EI, ITC, and RI 24000 series) since he
says they had rectangular panel or diagonal panel roofs.

So here is my question. What 40' box cars did have the combination of split
panel roofs and dartnaught ends? I would be pleased to learn that the RI
23000 series cars are among these.

I am contemplating building an example of these cars using Branchline
dartnaught ends and a cut-down Despatch roof from a Branchline 50' box car
kit.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Richard Townsend
 

No, I don't have any evidence to the contrary. The only evidence I have is that the series should not have been included among those described in the article. That is true of almost all the cars shown in the article. Apparently we've gotten a little smarter and better informed in the last 20 years.


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:34 am
Subject: RE: [STMFC] ACF post-war box cars




Could you please clarify what you are discussing RE the PRR 600000 series? I
was not aware these had anything other than the standard SREM diagonal panel
roof and R/3/4 rolling pin ends. Do you have other evidence? I would love
to see that!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Donald Ford
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 1:53 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] ACF post-war box cars



Richard
I got out that article and went into my files and the only car that seems to
be close to the ACF car is the Nickel Plate car as it has the same side lill
with no tabs and the same ends. Looking at the end of the roof it seams to
have diffenent seam where the end and the roof meet. thsi could be the
"split panel" roof. All the other cars are not close. The one series called
out of the PRR cars is a riveted car ( 600000-601999).
None of the pictures show enough of the roof to make a judgement. I may be
wrong in my guess about the roof on the NKP car as where the end and roof
meet on the drawing with the "split panel" roof showes a riveted seam. Of
all the pictures where you can see the ends only the NKP and DT&I cars have
the same ends like the ACF car.
Anyway confussing!
Don Ford
Kanab UT

________________________________
From: "richtownsend@... <mailto:richtownsend%40netscape.net> "
<richtownsend@... <mailto:richtownsend%40netscape.net> >
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 1:36:29 PM
Subject: [STMFC] ACF post-war box cars



There was a Todd Sullivan article in the Sept. 90 MM on ACF 1948 design box
cars. It talks about ACF using a "split panel" roof (as opposed to a
rectangular or diagonal panel -- similar to the "Despatch" roof) and
"dartnaught" ends on certain cars. The article specifically calls out DT&I
14000-14299 and 14300-14549, MKT 97001-97300 and 97301-97800, and Reading
107500-107999 and 10800 (sic) -108499. It includes plans for MKT 92548 (which
is not among those called as being of this particular design). The photos in
this article are confusing to say the least. The title illustration has
nothing to do with the subject of the article, being ACFX 30000 a 1938 welded
demonstrator car (I think). I can accept that since I have no intention of
modeling that car. But also included in the photos are the following:

ACL 24000-24999
ATSF 33500-33999
C&EI 66300-64299 (did they count backwards?) Erie 90500-91199 CMO 38300-39098
ITC 5700-5709 DL&W 54000-54999 RI 23000-23999 and 24000-24999 NKP 20200-20499
PRR 600000-601999 and 602000-603499 Reading ? (showing 109300) SERX 976-1027
NJI&I 100-199 MKT 91500-92000 (again outside the series called out in the
article)

Based on the photos in the article, the DL&W, NKP, SERX, and NJI&I are not
among the cars with the dartnaught ends and split panel roof. Looking at Ed
Hawkins's article in the 11/90 RMJ, it appears that the Erie cars are out,
too, as are the PRR 602000-603499. Another Ed Hawkins article, from the 10/90
RMJ, seems to rule out others (ATSF, C&EI, ITC, and RI 24000 series) since he
says they had rectangular panel or diagonal panel roofs.

So here is my question. What 40' box cars did have the combination of split
panel roofs and dartnaught ends? I would be pleased to learn that the RI
23000 series cars are among these.

I am contemplating building an example of these cars using Branchline
dartnaught ends and a cut-down Despatch roof from a Branchline 50' box car
kit.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Could you please clarify what you are discussing RE the PRR 600000 series? I
was not aware these had anything other than the standard SREM diagonal panel
roof and R/3/4 rolling pin ends. Do you have other evidence? I would love
to see that!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Donald Ford
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 1:53 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] ACF post-war box cars



Richard
I got out that article and went into my files and the only car that seems to
be close to the ACF car is the Nickel Plate car as it has the same side lill
with no tabs and the same ends. Looking at the end of the roof it seams to
have diffenent seam where the end and the roof meet. thsi could be the
"split panel" roof. All the other cars are not close. The one series called
out of the PRR cars is a riveted car ( 600000-601999).
None of the pictures show enough of the roof to make a judgement. I may be
wrong in my guess about the roof on the NKP car as where the end and roof
meet on the drawing with the "split panel" roof showes a riveted seam. Of
all the pictures where you can see the ends only the NKP and DT&I cars have
the same ends like the ACF car.
Anyway confussing!
Don Ford
Kanab UT

________________________________
From: "richtownsend@... <mailto:richtownsend%40netscape.net> "
<richtownsend@... <mailto:richtownsend%40netscape.net> >
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 1:36:29 PM
Subject: [STMFC] ACF post-war box cars



There was a Todd Sullivan article in the Sept. 90 MM on ACF 1948 design box
cars. It talks about ACF using a "split panel" roof (as opposed to a
rectangular or diagonal panel -- similar to the "Despatch" roof) and
"dartnaught" ends on certain cars. The article specifically calls out DT&I
14000-14299 and 14300-14549, MKT 97001-97300 and 97301-97800, and Reading
107500-107999 and 10800 (sic) -108499. It includes plans for MKT 92548 (which
is not among those called as being of this particular design). The photos in
this article are confusing to say the least. The title illustration has
nothing to do with the subject of the article, being ACFX 30000 a 1938 welded
demonstrator car (I think). I can accept that since I have no intention of
modeling that car. But also included in the photos are the following:

ACL 24000-24999
ATSF 33500-33999
C&EI 66300-64299 (did they count backwards?) Erie 90500-91199 CMO 38300-39098
ITC 5700-5709 DL&W 54000-54999 RI 23000-23999 and 24000-24999 NKP 20200-20499
PRR 600000-601999 and 602000-603499 Reading ? (showing 109300) SERX 976-1027
NJI&I 100-199 MKT 91500-92000 (again outside the series called out in the
article)

Based on the photos in the article, the DL&W, NKP, SERX, and NJI&I are not
among the cars with the dartnaught ends and split panel roof. Looking at Ed
Hawkins's article in the 11/90 RMJ, it appears that the Erie cars are out,
too, as are the PRR 602000-603499. Another Ed Hawkins article, from the 10/90
RMJ, seems to rule out others (ATSF, C&EI, ITC, and RI 24000 series) since he
says they had rectangular panel or diagonal panel roofs.

So here is my question. What 40' box cars did have the combination of split
panel roofs and dartnaught ends? I would be pleased to learn that the RI
23000 series cars are among these.

I am contemplating building an example of these cars using Branchline
dartnaught ends and a cut-down Despatch roof from a Branchline 50' box car
kit.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Donald Ford <ford.donald77@...>
 

Richard
I got out that article and went into my files and the only car that seems to be close to the ACF car is the Nickel Plate car as it has the same side lill with no tabs and the same ends.  Looking at the end of the roof it seams to have diffenent seam where the end and the roof meet.  thsi could be the "split panel" roof.  All the other cars are not close.  The one series called out of the PRR cars is a riveted car ( 600000-601999).
None of the pictures show enough of the roof to make a judgement.  I may be wrong in my guess about the roof on the NKP car as where the end and roof meet on the drawing with the "split panel" roof showes a riveted seam.  Of all the pictures where you can see the ends only the NKP and DT&I cars have the same ends like the ACF car.
Anyway confussing!
Don Ford
Kanab UT



________________________________
From: "richtownsend@..." <richtownsend@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 1:36:29 PM
Subject: [STMFC] ACF post-war box cars

 

There was a Todd Sullivan article in the Sept. 90 MM on ACF 1948 design box cars. It talks about ACF using a "split panel" roof (as opposed to a rectangular or diagonal panel -- similar to the "Despatch" roof) and "dartnaught" ends on certain cars. The article specifically calls out DT&I 14000-14299 and 14300-14549, MKT 97001-97300 and 97301-97800, and Reading 107500-107999 and 10800 (sic) -108499. It includes plans for MKT 92548 (which is not among those called as being of this particular design). The photos in this article are confusing to say the least. The title illustration has nothing to do with the subject of the article, being ACFX 30000 a 1938 welded demonstrator car (I think). I can accept that since I have no intention of modeling that car. But also included in the photos are the following:

ACL 24000-24999
ATSF 33500-33999
C&EI 66300-64299 (did they count backwards?)
Erie 90500-91199
CMO 38300-39098
ITC 5700-5709
DL&W 54000-54999
RI 23000-23999 and 24000-24999
NKP 20200-20499
PRR 600000-601999 and 602000-603499
Reading ? (showing 109300)
SERX 976-1027
NJI&I 100-199
MKT 91500-92000 (again outside the series called out in the article)

Based on the photos in the article, the DL&W, NKP, SERX, and NJI&I are not among the cars with the dartnaught ends and split panel roof. Looking at Ed Hawkins's article in the 11/90 RMJ, it appears that the Erie cars are out, too, as are the PRR 602000-603499. Another Ed Hawkins article, from the 10/90 RMJ, seems to rule out others (ATSF, C&EI, ITC, and RI 24000 series) since he says they had rectangular panel or diagonal panel roofs.

So here is my question. What 40' box cars did have the combination of split panel roofs and dartnaught ends? I would be pleased to learn that the RI 23000 series cars are among these.

I am contemplating building an example of these cars using Branchline dartnaught ends and a cut-down Despatch roof from a Branchline 50' box car kit.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Richard Townsend
 

Well. A long conversation with Ed Hawkins showed me how misinformed I was. Many, many thanks to Ed for generously sharing his time and expertise. The plans in the 9/90 MM are inaccurate with respect to the roof (the ACF riveted roof is quite different from the Despatch roof, in ways that Ed properly says cannot reasonably be described with written words). From the side, if looking from a low level, they look like Murphy roofs, but the best I can say is that they are little like a cross between the Murphy roofs )especially near the edgw of the roof) and the Despatch roofs (especially near the center of the roof), but with an added twist along the way. My simple kitbash with the dartnaught ends and despatch roof would not be accurate for any ACF box car. Oh well. There's still plenty of cars to model with parts that will work. Thanks again to Ed, and to the others who responded as well.


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


Tim O'Connor
 

Rich,

A picture of MKT 97193 definitely shows a rectangular panel roof.

Also, be aware that there are at least two distinctly different
looking "dartnot" ends -- for example the ends on the Rock Island
cars (23000 & 24000 series) have "rolling pin" style ribs with
a rectangular top rib. But the DT&I 14000 series cars have 4/4
ribs with a tapered + flattened look with a distinctive "dimple"
along the corners, between each rib. I don't think anyone has
made this end in HO scale.

You're right the RI 24000 series have diagonal panel roofs but
I don't know about the 23000 series.

Tim O'Connor

There was a Todd Sullivan article in the Sept. 90 MM on ACF 1948 design
box cars. It talks about ACF using a "split panel" roof (as opposed to
a rectangular or diagonal panel -- similar to the "Despatch" roof) and
"dartnaught" ends on certain cars. The article specifically calls out
DT&I 14000-14299 and 14300-14549, MKT 97001-97300 and 97301-97800, and
Reading 107500-107999 and 10800 (sic) -108499. It includes plans for
MKT 92548 (which is not among those called as being of this particular
design). The photos in this article are confusing to say the least. The
title illustration has nothing to do with the subject of the article,
being ACFX 30000 a 1938 welded demonstrator car (I think). I can accept
that since I have no intention of modeling that car. But also included
in the photos are the following:

ACL 24000-24999
ATSF 33500-33999
C&EI 66300-64299 (did they count backwards?)
Erie 90500-91199
CMO 38300-39098
ITC 5700-5709
DL&W 54000-54999
RI 23000-23999 and 24000-24999
NKP 20200-20499
PRR 600000-601999 and 602000-603499
Reading ? (showing 109300)
SERX 976-1027
NJI&I 100-199
MKT 91500-92000 (again outside the series called out in the article)

Based on the photos in the article, the DL&W, NKP, SERX, and NJI&I are
not among the cars with the dartnaught ends and split panel roof. Looking
at Ed Hawkins's article in the 11/90 RMJ, it appears that the Erie cars are
out, too, as are the PRR 602000-603499. Another Ed Hawkins article, from
the 10/90 RMJ, seems to rule out others (ATSF, C&EI, ITC, and RI 24000 series)
since he says they had rectangular panel or diagonal panel roofs.

So here is my question. What 40' box cars did have the combination of split
panel roofs and dartnaught ends? I would be pleased to learn that the
RI 23000 series cars are among these.

I am contemplating building an example of these cars using Branchline dartnaught
ends and a cut-down Despatch roof from a Branchline 50' box car kit.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


Richard Townsend
 

There was a Todd Sullivan article in the Sept. 90 MM on ACF 1948 design box cars. It talks about ACF using a "split panel" roof (as opposed to a rectangular or diagonal panel -- similar to the "Despatch" roof) and "dartnaught" ends on certain cars. The article specifically calls out DT&I 14000-14299 and 14300-14549, MKT 97001-97300 and 97301-97800, and Reading 107500-107999 and 10800 (sic) -108499. It includes plans for MKT 92548 (which is not among those called as being of this particular design). The photos in this article are confusing to say the least. The title illustration has nothing to do with the subject of the article, being ACFX 30000 a 1938 welded demonstrator car (I think). I can accept that since I have no intention of modeling that car. But also included in the photos are the following:

ACL 24000-24999
ATSF 33500-33999
C&EI 66300-64299 (did they count backwards?)
Erie 90500-91199
CMO 38300-39098
ITC 5700-5709
DL&W 54000-54999
RI 23000-23999 and 24000-24999
NKP 20200-20499
PRR 600000-601999 and 602000-603499
Reading ? (showing 109300)
SERX 976-1027
NJI&I 100-199
MKT 91500-92000 (again outside the series called out in the article)

Based on the photos in the article, the DL&W, NKP, SERX, and NJI&I are not among the cars with the dartnaught ends and split panel roof. Looking at Ed Hawkins's article in the 11/90 RMJ, it appears that the Erie cars are out, too, as are the PRR 602000-603499. Another Ed Hawkins article, from the 10/90 RMJ, seems to rule out others (ATSF, C&EI, ITC, and RI 24000 series) since he says they had rectangular panel or diagonal panel roofs.

So here is my question. What 40' box cars did have the combination of split panel roofs and dartnaught ends? I would be pleased to learn that the RI 23000 series cars are among these.

I am contemplating building an example of these cars using Branchline dartnaught ends and a cut-down Despatch roof from a Branchline 50' box car kit.


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon