Milling in Transit


Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@...>
 

MIT - Traffic was initially billed to a transit station and had to be referenced as such on the bill of lading. There is a time limit on transit which I can't recall off the top but it would be something like 2yrs, (it varied by commodities) which meant to make use of the inbound rate when the shipment was billed ex the transit station you had to surrender a bill within that period to receive credit for the rate paid inbound against the outbound move. You could surrender parts of the bill ie some of the inbound tonnage or all of it, if you had tonnage left over you would use it against a future outbound shipment. On the outbound move you could surrender inbound billing from multiple origins, I am referring to grain here other transit such a creosoting poles etc was usually one for one.
 
Transit certainly predates Staggers, most railroad pricing probably dates from the period of this list. I have recently seen some correspondence on EBAY to the Great  Northern from shippers in British Columbia that dates from the 1920's, in my experience really not much different that subjects I worked on when I joined the Freight Traffic department in 1969, then renamed Marketing & Sales.  
 
Tariffs we used where of varying ages, none of the ratings to and from the US were ever at end level, you always had to apply Ex Parte increases to determine the final/current rate. The railroads and rate bureaus did not automatically update their publications and at one point the ICC forced them to apply updates or lose the increases but at that they was still something like four or five Ex Parte increases to be applied to the rate shown in the tariffs.
 
Diversions, MIT, supplying of speciality cars etc are all considered as "privileges" and are therefore chargeable. My own opinion was the if rate makers had to use the tariffs they published rates in the whole mess would have been updated in short order but again finding your way thru the mass of paper and obsolete rates to get the best published rate was the mark of a good rate adviser and the rate makers response to end level rates was that the increases could change after their initial publication therefore they could have left  monies on the table.
 
All tariffs have their own rules and regulations as well they are governed by the classification which on US traffic is the Uniform Freight Classification. I don't recall the exact rule number but the Omnibus clause is the one that calls MIT and diversions a privilege and is the basis for railroads making a charge for this service.
 
As for diversions, usually you could have only one. In Canada we had eastern and western rules tariffs each having their own diversion item therefore some shippers would try to divert the same car twice if it move across the country. I imagine they tried multiple diversions on cars they were in trouble with on the connecting railroad if the they had no success with the origin carrier. Obviously a problem for the roads accounting departments.
 
As for lumber if you billed a lumber shipment "for orders" to a recognized order point you were telling the railways that they could expect a change in destination. The charge for this service was slightly less than the normal diversion charge and you would avoid demurrage charges but would have to pay track storage charges after 72hrs.
 
For the most part other diversions were more of the nature of the consignees credit issues, over supply of product, strikes etc. Lumber was buying and selling on the roll. 
 
A mill might ship say ten cars for car of which they had five sales of their own, the balance they would put out on the brokerage market and the brokers would spend their day calling lumber yards trying to sell the rollers. They would never want the mill to find out who their customer was for fear of being cut out of future sales so even if they had a sale when they initially purchased the car from the mill they would consign the car to themselves and "release/reconsign" it thru the carriers to their customers. A charge which was I think approx half the diversion charge was made for this, basically just an accounting charge as the destination was not changed, if the destination was changed or the routing then it was a diversion. 
 
As to routings, they were slow routes that some brokers would use, either because they expected the price of lumber to rise or they might be unsure of the receiver ability to pay. Adding multiple carriers to a routing of course means the carriers have to divide the thru rate into many pieces therefore likely a move that none of the carriers actually made money on.
 
Lumber was a very labour intensive move for the carriers which they actively solicited. Many
US roads had offices in Vancouver specifically for this business as well the travellers from Seattle would call on the traffic people at the lumber brokers and railroads.
 
One of my predecessors showed me the sign he had on his desk when a saleman would call - "No loot - no route".   

Ross McLeod Calgary

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Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

Dennis,

Thanks! One more question: I thought that Milling In Transit was somehow similar to "Diversion" in which a car might start its journey headed for New York City, and be changed en-route to be shipped to Los Angeles.
Is this kind of operation a part of Milling In Transit, or am I just confused?

Thanks,

-Jeff
Jeff,

Diversions were a totally different subject.

I had been hoping that Ross would chime in here, since he mentioned storage in transit, and I'm curious if this predates the Staggers Act of 1980 that changed the way railroads conduct their business, but I've decided it doesn't make any difference, because the basic precepts of ICC regulation was that nothing of value could be given away (lest it be given away such that if favored one group of shippers over another) and EVERYTHING had value. Heck, the ICC even found that the graphics painted on the outside of some refrigerator cars had value. So, if there was a provision for storage in transit during the steam era, it would have come at a price, and the purpose of playing the diversion game was to get something (storage for your product while you are trying to sell it) for free.

I'll also add the disclaimer that I'm no expert on railroad rate making, and in reality, thirty years after Staggers there are few people left who were placed highly enough in the pre-Staggers process to have had a full understanding, but my comments are based on conversations I've had with people over the years, both modelers and people who worked in industry. If anyone has better information, or wants ti correct points I make, feel free to do so; this is certainly not the last word on the subject.

There are legitimate reasons for a shipper to want to change where, or to whom, his shipment is delivered after it is under way. He may find that his customer's check bounced, or the customer has gone bankrupt, or even his customer's factory has burned to the ground. Recognizing that there are legitimate reasons for a shipper to divert a load, but requiring that all terms of railroad service be published publicly in the tariff, railroad tariffs had a clause that allowed a limited number of "diversions" of the load while in transit, the limited number being two, I believe. Once written into the tariff, people who sold commodities on commission, brokers, were able to use this provision to game the system to get free warehousing for their commodity while they sold it.

This is how the game was played, as I understand it. The broker could not send a car willy-nilly all over the US... well, he could, but would have to pay the local rate on each segment of the trip, which would be expensive. The idea was to pick an out of the way destination that had a through rate published to it, and pick a published route that was noted for its poor service. In this game, slowness, rather than speed, was desirable. Slowness could be enhanced by the number of times the car had to interchange between railroads, or go through yards where a single railroad had poor connections. The railroads, of course, didn't publicize that these were slow routes, but the brokers came to know over time which routes worked best for their purposes.

I also believe that the car did need a consignee named on the waybill, and it was most often the broker, care of the agent at the named destination. The broker was essentially shipping the load to himeslf, but in a different part of the country. Since the broker didn't have a business presence at that location, sending the car "care of" the agent would just get it spotted to the team track, and notification that he had two days to unload it before demurrage began to be charged. None of this was of any concern to the broker, as he had no intention of letting the car be delivered there.

The broker now has a couple weeks to sell the load. If priority perishable traffic could take seven days to cross the country, a poorly routed car of lumber could take two or maybe three times as long. The broker would try to sell the load in his western-most markets, shifting his efforts eastward as the car progressed. If the car was getting close to its destination and still hadn't sold, the broker would call the railroad and divert the car further east, again consigning it to himself, but at a different location.

When he did sell the car, he'd divert it once again, this time for actual delivery to his customer.

This sort of business, selling "rollers" as they were in transit, went on for years. There are occasional articles in the trade press decrying the capital costs of having all these cars tied up slowly moving across the country on less than optimum routings, but the railroads involved had no intention of cancellation these routings and losing the business, especially when most likely the capital costs were being paid by someone else. Staggers has changed all this, because railroads now can simply refuse unprofitable business, but that's now, and we're trying to model then.

Dennis


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Jeff;

I am glad we got a more expert opinion. I am now hoping that someone can
direct us to some photos of the loading and unloading operations, so I can
finally do the bakery on my layout! They had a small retail storefront, a
large baking operation behind (2 stories), and a small siding out back. They
did not ship out by rail, but supplied product all over the area, under a
different name on the bag. I'd love to know if they got other raw materials
by rail.

I am also hoping that anyone that is interested could also supply some more
details about how they also did the unloading part at larger breweries,
pre-big-covered hopper days. I only saw it after they had changed over, and
it was clearly a between-the-tracks chute, over which they parked the hopper.
How the heck did they do it prior to that? Shovel the barley out the door
inside a building? It looks like it, as there were tracks into the
buildings, but it would be cool to know.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Aley,
Jeff A
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 11:41 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit



Elden,

Thanks for expanding my knowledge about this. I really enjoy learning more
about grain and flour operations.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 4:51 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars with
powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I once asked a
guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he worked a summer in
which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a conveyor. I trust the story
was true. I also knew a guy that worked for National Biscuit company (Nabisco
in Pgh), and he said that in the days before the big covered hoppers came on
the scene, they got flour that way.

Can you imagine how contaminated that flour was? Yuck.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:58 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Elden,

Was this common? I thought flour was shipped in barrels or sacks, and not
loose, in bulk, in boxcars.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:38 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

For the modelers, there are number of great Paul Winters photos of box cars
with doors open, on RIP or clean-out tracks, with the intact or remains of
grain doors, waiting for them to be restored to general service condition,
coated with flour, including over the door where the spout was located. It
appears that the grain doors were just as good for holding in the flour, as
they were for grain, and were only removed after the car finished the trip to
the flour end user/Wholesaler/bakery and was routed back into a yard for
clean out. It makes an extremely interesting modeling aspect.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:28 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or
some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the
grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for
the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ross

I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve
an entirely new tariff?

Tim O'Connor
No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line
that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to
a nespaper article from 1890:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C>
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C>
94619ED7CF
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629

C94619ED7CF>

Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank
to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you
get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain
back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with
milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain
you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car
just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its
way.

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Dennis said that better than I could, and I would only add that I have seen
correspondence that indicated the "what" in what contaminants were, in box
cars, I suspect for those loads not bagged or barreled, and you don't want to
know....

The road had to eat the cost themselves, for loads refused, so there were
periodic campaigns to find those cars that could be categorized "clean".
Some road stenciled "clean loading only", some like NYC had a star, or "A" on
a yellow dot, etc. That practice seemed to vary a lot.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
soolinehistory
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 1:54 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Milling in Transit





--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Gatwood,
Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars
with powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I
once asked a guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he
worked a summer in which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a
conveyor. I trust the story was true. I also knew a guy that worked
for National Biscuit company (Nabisco in Pgh), and he said that in the
days before the big covered hoppers came on the scene, they got flour that
way.

A while back James Dick of the NP Historical Society sent me copies of a
bunch of 1920's era correspondence from the NP files (some of it concerned
Soo Line cars and was of interest to me) concerning damage to flour loads
from the Minneapolis milling distraict caused by water condensing on the
inside of unlined steel roofs and dripping on the load. In this
correspondence both loads of bagged flour and bulk loads were mentioned.

I suspect that bagged flour went to consignees who now receive bagged flour
by truck, while bulk loads went to volume customers that now receive Airslide
hoppers.

Dennis


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars with
powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I once asked a
guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he worked a summer in
which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a conveyor. I trust the story
was true. I also knew a guy that worked for National Biscuit company
(Nabisco in Pgh), and he said that in the days before the big covered hoppers
came on the scene, they got flour that way.
A while back James Dick of the NP Historical Society sent me copies of a bunch of 1920's era correspondence from the NP files (some of it concerned Soo Line cars and was of interest to me) concerning damage to flour loads from the Minneapolis milling distraict caused by water condensing on the inside of unlined steel roofs and dripping on the load. In this correspondence both loads of bagged flour and bulk loads were mentioned.

I suspect that bagged flour went to consignees who now receive bagged flour by truck, while bulk loads went to volume customers that now receive Airslide hoppers.

Dennis


Aley, Jeff A
 

Elden,

Thanks for expanding my knowledge about this. I really enjoy learning more about grain and flour operations.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 4:51 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit



Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars with
powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I once asked a
guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he worked a summer in
which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a conveyor. I trust the story
was true. I also knew a guy that worked for National Biscuit company
(Nabisco in Pgh), and he said that in the days before the big covered hoppers
came on the scene, they got flour that way.

Can you imagine how contaminated that flour was? Yuck.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Aley,
Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:58 PM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Elden,

Was this common? I thought flour was shipped in barrels or sacks, and not
loose, in bulk, in boxcars.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:38 PM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

For the modelers, there are number of great Paul Winters photos of box cars
with doors open, on RIP or clean-out tracks, with the intact or remains of
grain doors, waiting for them to be restored to general service condition,
coated with flour, including over the door where the spout was located. It
appears that the grain doors were just as good for holding in the flour, as
they were for grain, and were only removed after the car finished the trip to
the flour end user/Wholesaler/bakery and was routed back into a yard for
clean out. It makes an extremely interesting modeling aspect.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:28 PM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or
some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the
grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for
the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic

--- In STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ross

I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve
an entirely new tariff?

Tim O'Connor
No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line
that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to
a nespaper article from 1890:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C>
94619ED7CF
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C94619ED7CF>

Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank
to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you
get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain
back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with
milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain
you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car
just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its
way.

Dennis


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Jeff;

I don't know if it was common, but I have seen an awful lot of cars with
powdered flour all over them, like a powdered doughnut almost. I once asked a
guy that worked in a bakery (a BIG one), and he says he worked a summer in
which he shoveled out box cars of flour into a conveyor. I trust the story
was true. I also knew a guy that worked for National Biscuit company
(Nabisco in Pgh), and he said that in the days before the big covered hoppers
came on the scene, they got flour that way.

Can you imagine how contaminated that flour was? Yuck.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Aley,
Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit



Elden,

Was this common? I thought flour was shipped in barrels or sacks, and not
loose, in bulk, in boxcars.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:38 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

For the modelers, there are number of great Paul Winters photos of box cars
with doors open, on RIP or clean-out tracks, with the intact or remains of
grain doors, waiting for them to be restored to general service condition,
coated with flour, including over the door where the spout was located. It
appears that the grain doors were just as good for holding in the flour, as
they were for grain, and were only removed after the car finished the trip to
the flour end user/Wholesaler/bakery and was routed back into a yard for
clean out. It makes an extremely interesting modeling aspect.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:28 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or
some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the
grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for
the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ross

I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve
an entirely new tariff?

Tim O'Connor
No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line
that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to
a nespaper article from 1890:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C>
94619ED7CF
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C94619ED7CF>

Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank
to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you
get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain
back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with
milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain
you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car
just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its
way.

Dennis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Aley, Jeff A
 

Elden,

Was this common? I thought flour was shipped in barrels or sacks, and not loose, in bulk, in boxcars.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:38 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Milling in Transit



For the modelers, there are number of great Paul Winters photos of box cars
with doors open, on RIP or clean-out tracks, with the intact or remains of
grain doors, waiting for them to be restored to general service condition,
coated with flour, including over the door where the spout was located. It
appears that the grain doors were just as good for holding in the flour, as
they were for grain, and were only removed after the car finished the trip to
the flour end user/Wholesaler/bakery and was routed back into a yard for
clean out. It makes an extremely interesting modeling aspect.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Aley,
Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:28 PM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Milling in Transit

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or
some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the
grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for
the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic

--- In STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ross

I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve
an entirely new tariff?

Tim O'Connor
No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line
that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to
a nespaper article from 1890:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C
94619ED7CF
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C94619ED7CF>

Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank
to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you
get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain
back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with
milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain
you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car
just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its
way.

Dennis


Aley, Jeff A
 

Dennis,

Thanks! One more question: I thought that Milling In Transit was somehow similar to "Diversion" in which a car might start its journey headed for New York City, and be changed en-route to be shipped to Los Angeles.
Is this kind of operation a part of Milling In Transit, or am I just confused?

Thanks,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 11:31 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Milling in Transit




--- In STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff
I'm getting near the fringes of my knowledge, but I'll start, and someone who knows more can chime in and correct anything I've mis-interpreted.

Milling in transit appears to pre-date the formation of the ICC. In the rough-and-tumble pre-regulatory days it was a way railroads could induce millers to locate on their line; offer a single through rate from source to customer. It appears to be the reason that both the M &St.L and Soo Line were built; the millers in Minneapolis were tired of paying two local rates to move grain in and then ship flour out, when the same RR's they were shipping on were offering better rates to mills located further east. The Minneapolis milling interests started building a railroad to St. Louis, but lost control, they later started two other lines, the Minneapolis & Pacific to bring grain in from the west, and the Minneapolis, Sault Ste. Marie & Atlantic to ship flour to the east. When these roads were finished, they were consolidated into the Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie. Then Pillsbury and the other Minneapolis Millers could also enjoy the the advantages of milling in transit.

Since this was the entrenched way that the flour trade was being conducted, it continued under ICC regulation; the tariffs were published, and all the ICC concerned itself with is that the rates were equally available to all.

Who was the Shipper? As I understand it, it was the miller, who bought the grain delivered at the elevator, and paid the freight from there to the customer, with the priveledge of a stop-off to mill it into flour somewhere along the way. The combined rate was less than the sum of the local inbound rate on grain and local outbound rate on flour; it was advantageous to the railroad as it gave them a longer haul on grain that was captive to their line.

Did it have to be the same car? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I think most tariffs had a provision for changing the cars en route; there are instances of railroads who would reload coal into home road cars back in the days when labor was cheap.

In reality, it may well have often been a paper transaction, with fifty tons of inbound grain simply matched with fifty tons of outbound flour for billing purposes. You will notice the 1890 newspaper article I linked to concerns itself in part with the outbound loads being heavier than the inbounds :-)
However, since the same class of car was used for both grain and flour, back in the day, I would suspect that from track side, it looked like the same cars being used.

Dennis


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

For the modelers, there are number of great Paul Winters photos of box cars
with doors open, on RIP or clean-out tracks, with the intact or remains of
grain doors, waiting for them to be restored to general service condition,
coated with flour, including over the door where the spout was located. It
appears that the grain doors were just as good for holding in the flour, as
they were for grain, and were only removed after the car finished the trip to
the flour end user/Wholesaler/bakery and was routed back into a yard for
clean out. It makes an extremely interesting modeling aspect.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Aley,
Jeff A
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:28 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Milling in Transit



Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or
some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the
grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for
the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ross

I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve
an entirely new tariff?

Tim O'Connor
No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line
that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to
a nespaper article from 1890:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C
94619ED7CF
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629
C94619ED7CF>

Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank
to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you
get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain
back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with
milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain
you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car
just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its
way.

Dennis


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff
I'm getting near the fringes of my knowledge, but I'll start, and someone who knows more can chime in and correct anything I've mis-interpreted.

Milling in transit appears to pre-date the formation of the ICC. In the rough-and-tumble pre-regulatory days it was a way railroads could induce millers to locate on their line; offer a single through rate from source to customer. It appears to be the reason that both the M &St.L and Soo Line were built; the millers in Minneapolis were tired of paying two local rates to move grain in and then ship flour out, when the same RR's they were shipping on were offering better rates to mills located further east. The Minneapolis milling interests started building a railroad to St. Louis, but lost control, they later started two other lines, the Minneapolis & Pacific to bring grain in from the west, and the Minneapolis, Sault Ste. Marie & Atlantic to ship flour to the east. When these roads were finished, they were consolidated into the Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie. Then Pillsbury and the other Minneapolis Millers could also enjoy the the advantages of milling in transit.

Since this was the entrenched way that the flour trade was being conducted, it continued under ICC regulation; the tariffs were published, and all the ICC concerned itself with is that the rates were equally available to all.

Who was the Shipper? As I understand it, it was the miller, who bought the grain delivered at the elevator, and paid the freight from there to the customer, with the priveledge of a stop-off to mill it into flour somewhere along the way. The combined rate was less than the sum of the local inbound rate on grain and local outbound rate on flour; it was advantageous to the railroad as it gave them a longer haul on grain that was captive to their line.

Did it have to be the same car? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I think most tariffs had a provision for changing the cars en route; there are instances of railroads who would reload coal into home road cars back in the days when labor was cheap.

In reality, it may well have often been a paper transaction, with fifty tons of inbound grain simply matched with fifty tons of outbound flour for billing purposes. You will notice the 1890 newspaper article I linked to concerns itself in part with the outbound loads being heavier than the inbounds :-)
However, since the same class of car was used for both grain and flour, back in the day, I would suspect that from track side, it looked like the same cars being used.

Dennis


Aley, Jeff A
 

Dennis,

Could you please expand upon this topic?

For example, who is it that has his wheat milled in transit: the farmer, or some intermediate elevator? Is the "milling in transit" done between the grain elevator and flour consumer (e.g. bakery)?

You imply that the exact same boxcar gets used for the flour as was used for the grain. Is this always the case, or was that a simplification?

Thanks much,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:36 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: was LCL - Stop Off traffic




--- In STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ross

I've heard of storage in transit for grain, but milling in transit??
Wouldn't the transformation of bulk grain into bags of flour involve
an entirely new tariff?

Tim O'Connor
No, it was a single tariff designed to keep the flour traffic on the line that had originated the grain move. It goes back a long way; here's a link to a nespaper article from 1890:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9802EED8153BE533A25752C1A9629C94619ED7CF

Keep in mind that grain is fungible, like money is. When you go to the bank to make a withdrawal, you don't get the same money you deposited back; you get different but equal money. Grain is the same, you don't get your grain back out of the elevator, you get different but equal grain. Same with milling in transit. You don't get the flour that was milled from the grain you hauled in; you get equal flour milled from different grain. So, the car just emptied of grain can be immediately refilled with flour and sent on its way.

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]