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GN USRA DS Box Cars
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golden1014
Gentlemen,
I'm finishing a GN USRA DS box car, and was wondering if you might be able to lend advice on painting. For a model circa 1950, would correct paint be all mineral red, or mineral red with black ends and roof? Also, what is the correct underframe color? Or, are there multiple variations for my timeframe? I also understand some GN cars had ladders that replaced the grabs on the car sides. At what time did that modification occur, and would you know if that mod was made for certain cars or the entire fleet? Thanks! John John Golden Bloomington, IN [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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John,
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As for your ladder question on a GN USRA box car, I am not sure if I have ever seen a picture of one with the grab irons. The majority of them would have had the ladders. Here is a link to some information. http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/gn25096main.html Also, at the Westerfield website there is some information along with their kit #3815 description. http://www.westerfield.biz/ Aaron --- In STMFC@..., John Golden <golden1014@...> wrote:
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Staffan Ehnbom <staffan.ehnbom@...>
The GN USRA double wood sheath box cars definitely had individual grab irons as built. But as the picture Aaron links to, by 1948 they would have recieved ladders.
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For a 1950 model mineral red would be correct for the entire car including roof ends and underframe. Staffan Ehnbom ----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Gjermundson To: STMFC@... Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 8:51 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: GN USRA DS Box Cars John, As for your ladder question on a GN USRA box car, I am not sure if I have ever seen a picture of one with the grab irons. The majority of them would have had the ladders. Here is a link to some information. http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/gn25096main.html Also, at the Westerfield website there is some information along with their kit #3815 description. http://www.westerfield.biz/ Aaron --- In STMFC@..., John Golden <golden1014@...> wrote: > > Gentlemen, > > I'm finishing a GN USRA DS box car, and was wondering if you might be able to lend advice on painting. For a model circa 1950, would correct paint be all mineral red, or mineral red with black ends and roof? Also, what is the correct underframe color? Or, are there multiple variations for my timeframe? > > I also understand some GN cars had ladders that replaced the grabs on the car sides. At what time did that modification occur, and would you know if that mod was made for certain cars or the entire fleet? > > Thanks! > > John > > John Golden > Bloomington, IN > > > |
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golden1014
Hi Steffan,
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Thanks for the information. If I model the car in the photo referenced by Mr. Gjermundson I should be safe. So, for the record, we're talking entirely Mineral Red body with side facing goat, correct? How about color of the underframe and trucks? Thank you! John Golden Bloomington, IN --- In STMFC@..., "Staffan Ehnbom" <staffan.ehnbom@...> wrote:
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gn3397 <heninger@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "John" <golden1014@...> wrote:
Thanks for the information. If I model the car in the photo referenced by Mr. Gjermundson I should be safe. So, for the record, we're talking entirely Mineral Red body with side facing goat, correct? How about color of the underframe and trucks?John, Actually, if you model the car in that photo, you'll need to replace the ends, as it is one of the 1923 built clones with 7/8 ends. Here is my understanding of steam era GN paint schemes: As a general rule, prior to 1948, GN painted the roofs, steel ends, end ladders and grabs, running boards, underframes, and trucks black on its boxcars. The metal end reinforcement panels on the carbody side of the USRA/USRA clone design were painted mineral red, as were the side ladders and grabs. Of course, the sides were mineral red as well. Side trusses on the single sheathed designs were mineral red also. Wooden ends on some of the DS truss rod boxcars were mineral red, but their metal sheathed roofs were black. In June 1948, the GN introduced the all mineral red scheme, which includes the trucks and underframes. The only exceptions to the above generalizations that I am aware of are the 1000 1937 Pullman (50000-50499) and ACF (50500-50999) boxcars built to the GN modification of the ARA 1924-25 double sheathed design. These cars had superstructures painted entirely mineral red, but I don't know what color the trucks and underframes were painted. Also, of course the orange plywood boxcars are an exception as well. As far as lettering practices, in the 20s-30s, GN didn't use reporting marks, but instead just stenciled the car number below the roadname, to the left of the door. The three boxcars in the RP CYC 16 article demonstrate this variation. The monograms (GN's term used in its lettering diagrams) were the "front facing goat" with the "See America First - Glacier National Park". The 1937 built boxcars referenced above are the first cars I know of that use the AAR standard lettering practices, with GN reporting marks and lines above and below the mark and car number. In 1940, the monogram was changed to a simplified side facing goat, but the slogan remained. In June 1948, the monogram was changed to eliminate the slogan and the words "Great Northern Railway" now surround the side facing goat. This monogram in various sizes, was used from June 1948 through the end of the time frame of this list. I have not been successful in finding many photos of GN USRA boxcars in the 1937-1940 or 1940-1948 paint schemes. I do have a photo of a well weathered GN 23806 painted in the 1940-48 scheme with grabirons on the sides and ends. The photo is undated, but the caboose it is coupled to is painted in a mid-fifties paint scheme. The USRA boxcars that I have seen photos of that wear the post June 1948 scheme all have 7-rung side ladders but retain the as delivered 6-grab iron end ladders. They also got AB brakes when they received the side ladders. I don't know when the cars were cycled through the St. Cloud shops, but I have to believe it would have started by 1950. Obviously, some USRA design cars could have received side ladders and worn the earlier paint schemes, but I have no specific documentation to support such a claim. Well, that is probably more than you wanted to know about GN boxcars. If I were you, I would add the side ladders, paint the car overall mineral red (no masking!) and apply the "Great Northern Railway" herald. If anyone has any additional information or corrections to what I have posted, please let myself and the group know. As you may have guessed, the GN is my favorite road! Sincerely, Bob Heninger Iowa City, IA |
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Richard Hendrickson
On Apr 26, 2010, at 6:38 PM, gn3397 wrote:
The USRA boxcars that I have seen photos of that wear the postBob (and John Golden), FWIW, I have a 4/48 photo by Charles Wales of GN 25096 with moderate weathering, restenciled weight and repacking data, 7 rung side ladders, and "See America First - Glacier National Park" herald. This indicates that some cars began to get side ladders at least as early as the early-to-mid 1940s. Richard Hendrickson |
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gn3397 <heninger@...>
--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
Bob (and John Golden), FWIW, I have a 4/48 photo by Charles Wales ofRichard, Yes, I have that photo as well. It is not a "true" USRA car, but a postwar clone with 7/8 ends. I worded my reply poorly. I have no doubt that some of the GN USRA cars received ladders as replacements for their grab irons in the early to mid forties, as I have other photos of GN truss rod cars and postwar USRA clones wearing side and front facing SAF schemes with ladders in place of grab irons. I just meant that I had no photographic proof of such an installation on a USRA boxcar. Picking a nit, I know, but isn't that what we do? Speaking of picking nits, aren't the "USRA clone" SS and DS boxcars actually the first ARA recommended standard boxcars? I thought I read that in one of Pat O'Boyle or Jeff Koeller's articles in Mainline Modeler. Does anyone else remember reading this? Sincerely, Bob Heninger Iowa City, IA |
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Staffan Ehnbom <staffan.ehnbom@...>
John,
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My comment was a bit brief and addressing only cars repainted after 1948. I didn't take notice of the car in the picture being a "clone" car rather than a true USRA (Thanks, Bob, for pointing that out.), although painting and lettering and side ladder features would be expected to be the same for both categories. So for a true USRA car with the scheme in the "clone" photo using the See America First monogram, see Bob's thorough info on the pre-1948 scheme and use a 23494-24993 car number. If you need a photo of a post 1948 all mineral red scheme version with the GNR monogram, let me know. As a side note, it appears that the next similar construction series built in 1924, the 30000 series of 1½ door automobile cars, received side ladders from the start. At least there is a photo of a car serviced in 1925 featuring side ladders. Staffan ----- Original Message -----
From: John To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 12:32 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: GN USRA DS Box Cars Hi Steffan, Thanks for the information. If I model the car in the photo referenced by Mr. Gjermundson I should be safe. So, for the record, we're talking entirely Mineral Red body with side facing goat, correct? How about color of the underframe and trucks? Thank you! John Golden Bloomington, IN --- In STMFC@..., "Staffan Ehnbom" <staffan.ehnbom@...> wrote: > > The GN USRA double wood sheath box cars definitely had individual grab irons as built. But as the picture Aaron links to, by 1948 they would have recieved ladders. > > For a 1950 model mineral red would be correct for the entire car including roof ends and underframe. > > Staffan Ehnbom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aaron Gjermundson > To: STMFC@... > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 8:51 PM > Subject: [STMFC] Re: GN USRA DS Box Cars > > > > John, > > As for your ladder question on a GN USRA box car, I am not sure if I have ever seen a picture of one with the grab irons. The majority of them would have had the ladders. > > Here is a link to some information. > > http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/gn25096main.html > > Also, at the Westerfield website there is some information along with their kit #3815 description. > > http://www.westerfield.biz/ > > Aaron > > --- In STMFC@..., John Golden <golden1014@> wrote: > > > > Gentlemen, > > > > I'm finishing a GN USRA DS box car, and was wondering if you might be able to lend advice on painting. For a model circa 1950, would correct paint be all mineral red, or mineral red with black ends and roof? Also, what is the correct underframe color? Or, are there multiple variations for my timeframe? > > > > I also understand some GN cars had ladders that replaced the grabs on the car sides. At what time did that modification occur, and would you know if that mod was made for certain cars or the entire fleet? > > > > Thanks! > > > > John > > > > John Golden > > Bloomington, IN > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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golden1014
Hi Steffan,
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Got it--thanks! I discovered the difference in the cars last night when I compared the photo on the Steam Era Freight Cars site with photos in the RP Cyc and the GN-Lines East book. Your information--along with Richard's and Bob's replies--has been most helpful. If you could send that photo at your convenience I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks to you guys I'm going to have a correct model. John Golden Bloomington, IN Golden1014@... --- In STMFC@..., "Staffan Ehnbom" <staffan.ehnbom@...> wrote:
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Mike Brock <brockm@...>
John,
The May 1988 issue of Model RailroaDING contains an article by Richard Hendrickson including a photo of 5/5/5 ended GN 23806 in the late 50's with individual grabs. Richard notes that the goat herald indicates that the car was last painted in the late 30's....and it looks it. 5/5/5 ended 23812 in the same article shown in the mid 50's has ladders. 7/8 ended USRA clown 25170 has ladders [ no date ]. Same article 30411 shows improvements...side ladders, steel doors, etc. Mike Brock |
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soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:
I might point out that a lot of these cars were rebuilt again ca. 1954-57 into stock cars... the prototype for the Accurail stock car. I've seen pix of both the original USRA cars (5,5,5 ends) and the early twenties "clones (7,8 ends). I have no idea how many, if any, remained as boxcars after this program was completed. Dennis |
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Staffan Ehnbom <staffan.ehnbom@...>
The last GN stock car rebuilds of USRA type cars was made in 1957. There were still 322 GN USRA cars and 416 24994 series clone cars in the July 1959 ORER, only 12 and 35 by April 1964.
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Staffan Ehnbom ----- Original Message -----
From: soolinehistory To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 7:31 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: GN USRA DS Box Cars --- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote: > > John, > The May 1988 issue of Model RailroaDING contains an article by Richard > Hendrickson including a photo of 5/5/5 ended GN 23806 in the late 50's with > individual grabs... I might point out that a lot of these cars were rebuilt again ca. 1954-57 into stock cars... the prototype for the Accurail stock car. I've seen pix of both the original USRA cars (5,5,5 ends) and the early twenties "clones (7,8 ends). I have no idea how many, if any, remained as boxcars after this program was completed. Dennis |
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