Tichy panel side 2-bay hopper


Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

Has this car been discussed on the list, and, if so, does it represent any particular prototype?
Thanks
Norm Larkin


al_brown03
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Norman+Laraine Larkin" <lono@...> wrote:

Has this car been discussed on the list, and, if so, does it
represent any particular prototype?
Yes, it's been discussed; if I understand correctly, the car isn't exact for any prototype but is more or less close to several. (Most panel-side hoppers were rebuilds, and there was a lot of variation.) A search of the group archive for "Tichy panel side hopper" gives about 80 hits, 20-25 of them relevant; see especially message #6268 and later messages in the same thread.

-- hth --

-- Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Bill Welch
 

Actually the Tichy hopper is a model of the USRA's twin hopper. What people object to is that the two center panels are too wide. If you go to Message #93267 a comparison with Accrails USRA twin shows this very clearly.

So far I have used the Tichy to build of 3 Clinchfield, 2 L&N, and 1 NC&StL cars, so distasteful is the idea of going back and carving on the Accurail, and I have at least 8 more in their boxes waiting to be built.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., "Norman+Laraine Larkin" <lono@> wrote:

Has this car been discussed on the list, and, if so, does it
represent any particular prototype?
Yes, it's been discussed; if I understand correctly, the car isn't exact for any prototype but is more or less close to several. (Most panel-side hoppers were rebuilds, and there was a lot of variation.) A search of the group archive for "Tichy panel side hopper" gives about 80 hits, 20-25 of them relevant; see especially message #6268 and later messages in the same thread.

-- hth --

-- Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Actually the Tichy hopper is a model of the USRA's twin hopper. What people object to is that the two center panels are too wide. If you go to Message #93267 a comparison with Accrails USRA twin shows this very clearly.

So far I have used the Tichy to build of 3 Clinchfield, 2 L&N, and 1 NC&StL cars, so distasteful is the idea of going back and carving on the Accurail, and I have at least 8 more in their boxes waiting to be built.

Bill Welch
When it comes to the Tichy panel side car, there are more differences than the incorrect stake spacing of the Tichy kit vs. Accurail's molded on grabs; the cars model different prototypes.

Period trade literature show that Union Metal Products presented three different designs for their panel side retro-fit kit (Note, almost no cars were built new as panel side cars):

Panels with flat edges designed to be riveted to the existing side stakes;

panels with flat edges designed to be riveted to new stakes made from bulb angle;

panels that had their edges formed to a channel section that were designed to have the two channel sections welded together, thereby forming "integral stakes".

As far as I know, none of the bulb angle version were ever produced. The flat edge panels were only used on the first three experimental cars the NYC converted; they used the integral stake design on all subsequent rebuilds. The flat edge panels may have been used on C&O 62000 - 63999, but these cars lacked the "blister" in the end panels over the slope sheets. As far as I know, all other conversions used the integral stake design.

The Tichy car models the original stakes in their entirety, so must be modeling the flat edge panel design. The Accurail car models the integral stake design.

Dennis Storzek


Clark Propst
 

And then there's the kit that Stan Rydarowicz has been selling.
Clark Propst


Tim O'Connor
 

Stan's kit represents a rebuild of yet another hopper, not
a rebuild of a USRA hopper. Panel side rebuilds were executed
on C&NW quad hoppers as well. Some small parts vendor used to
sell a kit of panels designed to be glued to the side of the
HO scale Athearn "rib side" hopper.

Tim O'Connor

At 9/24/2010 12:09 PM Friday, you wrote:
And then there's the kit that Stan Rydarowicz has been selling.
Clark Propst


Bill Welch
 

You are amazing Dennis in your knowledge. Although the Accurail model is dark in the link from message #93267, it is possible to see the difference you speak of.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., "lnbill" <fgexbill@> wrote:

Actually the Tichy hopper is a model of the USRA's twin hopper. What people object to is that the two center panels are too wide. If you go to Message #93267 a comparison with Accrails USRA twin shows this very clearly.

So far I have used the Tichy to build of 3 Clinchfield, 2 L&N, and 1 NC&StL cars, so distasteful is the idea of going back and carving on the Accurail, and I have at least 8 more in their boxes waiting to be built.

Bill Welch
When it comes to the Tichy panel side car, there are more differences than the incorrect stake spacing of the Tichy kit vs. Accurail's molded on grabs; the cars model different prototypes.

Period trade literature show that Union Metal Products presented three different designs for their panel side retro-fit kit (Note, almost no cars were built new as panel side cars):

Panels with flat edges designed to be riveted to the existing side stakes;

panels with flat edges designed to be riveted to new stakes made from bulb angle;

panels that had their edges formed to a channel section that were designed to have the two channel sections welded together, thereby forming "integral stakes".

As far as I know, none of the bulb angle version were ever produced. The flat edge panels were only used on the first three experimental cars the NYC converted; they used the integral stake design on all subsequent rebuilds. The flat edge panels may have been used on C&O 62000 - 63999, but these cars lacked the "blister" in the end panels over the slope sheets. As far as I know, all other conversions used the integral stake design.

The Tichy car models the original stakes in their entirety, so must be modeling the flat edge panel design. The Accurail car models the integral stake design.

Dennis Storzek


Armand Premo
 

The Central Vermont had some hoppers on which only some of the panels were replaced.Later the replacement panels were restored to the original configuration.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: lnbill
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 12:41 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Tichy panel side 2-bay hopper



You are amazing Dennis in your knowledge. Although the Accurail model is dark in the link from message #93267, it is possible to see the difference you speak of.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In STMFC@..., "lnbill" <fgexbill@> wrote:
> >
> > Actually the Tichy hopper is a model of the USRA's twin hopper. What people object to is that the two center panels are too wide. If you go to Message #93267 a comparison with Accrails USRA twin shows this very clearly.
> >
> > So far I have used the Tichy to build of 3 Clinchfield, 2 L&N, and 1 NC&StL cars, so distasteful is the idea of going back and carving on the Accurail, and I have at least 8 more in their boxes waiting to be built.
> >
> > Bill Welch
>
> When it comes to the Tichy panel side car, there are more differences than the incorrect stake spacing of the Tichy kit vs. Accurail's molded on grabs; the cars model different prototypes.
>
> Period trade literature show that Union Metal Products presented three different designs for their panel side retro-fit kit (Note, almost no cars were built new as panel side cars):
>
> Panels with flat edges designed to be riveted to the existing side stakes;
>
> panels with flat edges designed to be riveted to new stakes made from bulb angle;
>
> panels that had their edges formed to a channel section that were designed to have the two channel sections welded together, thereby forming "integral stakes".
>
> As far as I know, none of the bulb angle version were ever produced. The flat edge panels were only used on the first three experimental cars the NYC converted; they used the integral stake design on all subsequent rebuilds. The flat edge panels may have been used on C&O 62000 - 63999, but these cars lacked the "blister" in the end panels over the slope sheets. As far as I know, all other conversions used the integral stake design.
>
> The Tichy car models the original stakes in their entirety, so must be modeling the flat edge panel design. The Accurail car models the integral stake design.
>
> Dennis Storzek
>






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Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tim,

Weren't those panels sold by Detail Associates? I used a set of them to make an ersatz C&O conversion years back. At the time, I thought it looked pretty cool. Nowdays I would probably be laughed out of Cocoa Beach. :~)

Kind regards,


Garth Groff

On 9/24/2010 12:34 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Stan's kit represents a rebuild of yet another hopper, not
a rebuild of a USRA hopper. Panel side rebuilds were executed
on C&NW quad hoppers as well. Some small parts vendor used to
sell a kit of panels designed to be glued to the side of the
HO scale Athearn "rib side" hopper.

Tim O'Connor


At 9/24/2010 12:09 PM Friday, you wrote:
And then there's the kit that Stan Rydarowicz has been selling.
Clark Propst


Donald Ford <ford.donald77@...>
 

Tim
That was Pikestuff looked good 20 years ago.
Don Ford
Kanab UT




________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 10:34:00 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Tichy panel side 2-bay hopper

 

Stan's kit represents a rebuild of yet another hopper, not
a rebuild of a USRA hopper. Panel side rebuilds were executed
on C&NW quad hoppers as well. Some small parts vendor used to
sell a kit of panels designed to be glued to the side of the
HO scale Athearn "rib side" hopper.

Tim O'Connor

At 9/24/2010 12:09 PM Friday, you wrote:
And then there's the kit that Stan Rydarowicz has been selling.
Clark Propst






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Donald Ford <ford.donald77@...>
 

Clark
That is a kit for a PRR class GLF a rebuilt GLA one car but the car is too short
the prototype was 8" taller I have one but don't run it with other GLA's
Don Ford
Kanab UT




________________________________
From: "cepropst@q.com" <cepropst@q.com>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 10:09:57 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Tichy panel side 2-bay hopper

 
And then there's the kit that Stan Rydarowicz has been selling.
Clark Propst







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Brian Carlson
 

Tim: Those were Pikestuff parts. i have some I inherited from other modelers years ago if anyone needs them, they are in the basement someplace. Contact me off list if interested.
Brian carlson

Stan's kit represents a rebuild of yet another hopper, not
a rebuild of a USRA hopper. Panel side rebuilds were executed
on C&NW quad hoppers as well. Some small parts vendor used to
sell a kit of panels designed to be glued to the side of the
HO scale Athearn "rib side" hopper.

Tim O'Connor


Tim O'Connor
 

Garth

It's possible -- DA bought tooling from some very small parts
vendors (e.g. PS-2 covered hopper hatches) and then repackaged
them as DA parts.

Tim

At 9/24/2010 01:03 PM Friday, you wrote:
Tim,

Weren't those panels sold by Detail Associates? I used a set of them to
make an ersatz C&O conversion years back. At the time, I thought it
looked pretty cool. Nowdays I would probably be laughed out of Cocoa
Beach. :~)

Kind regards,
Garth Groff


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tim,

No the other guys nailed it: Pikestuff. But that was nearly 20 years ago, and I can barely remember what I had for breakfast.

Kind regards,


Garth

On 9/24/2010 2:00 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Garth

It's possible -- DA bought tooling from some very small parts
vendors (e.g. PS-2 covered hopper hatches) and then repackaged
them as DA parts.

Tim


At 9/24/2010 01:03 PM Friday, you wrote:
Tim,

Weren't those panels sold by Detail Associates? I used a set of them to
make an ersatz C&O conversion years back. At the time, I thought it
looked pretty cool. Nowdays I would probably be laughed out of Cocoa
Beach. :~)

Kind regards,
Garth Groff

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Pieter Roos
 

I don't know about the GLa parts, but Stan did a set for the Wabash/Ann Arbor cars built in their shops. The set was written up in RMJ, and I recall he also sold Athearn hoppers with the sides laser cut for the panels (which were open on the inside).

Going further back, Cannonball Car Shops sold panel sides to replace/overlay the sides on the Lifelike/Varney hopper to make a panel sided USRA car. I don't thik many would consider that route to such a model at this stage.

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@..., Donald Ford <ford.donald77@...> wrote:

Clark
That is a kit for a PRR class GLF a rebuilt GLA one car but the car is too short
the prototype was 8" taller I have one but don't run it with other GLA's
Don Ford
Kanab UT



And then there's the kit that Stan Rydarowicz has been selling.
Clark Propst


Clark Propst
 

"Stan did a set for the Wabash/Ann Arbor cars built in their shops. I recall he also sold Athearn hoppers with the sides laser cut for the panels (which were open on
the inside)." Pieter Roos

That's the model I was thinking about. Didn't know he did a Pennsy version?
Clark Propst


Bruce Smith
 

Righto,

Stan offers TWO DIFFERENT panel side hoppers
- The Ann Arbor/Wab cars, based on the Athearn twin
- The PRR GLF, based on the Bowser GLA.

Clearer now? (as a PRR modeler, I own the former, but not the later)

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Sep 24, 2010, at 1:09 PM, Pieter_Roos wrote:

I don't know about the GLa parts, but Stan did a set for the Wabash/
Ann Arbor cars built in their shops. The set was written up in RMJ,
and I recall he also sold Athearn hoppers with the sides laser cut
for the panels (which were open on the inside).

Going further back, Cannonball Car Shops sold panel sides to
replace/overlay the sides on the Lifelike/Varney hopper to make a
panel sided USRA car. I don't thik many would consider that route
to such a model at this stage.

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@..., Donald Ford <ford.donald77@...> wrote:

Clark
That is a kit for a PRR class GLF a rebuilt GLAÂ one car but the car is too short
the prototype was 8" taller I have one but don't run it with other
GLA's
Don Ford
Kanab UT



And then there's the kit that Stan Rydarowicz has been selling.
Clark Propst


Michael Aufderheide
 

There is a general survey of these cars by Richard Hendrickson in Model Railroad Hobbist here:
 
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/download/mrh_issue2
 
Mike Aufderheide

--- On Fri, 9/24/10, cepropst@q.com <cepropst@q.com> wrote:


From: cepropst@q.com <cepropst@q.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Tichy panel side 2-bay hopper
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, September 24, 2010, 1:24 PM


 



"Stan did a set for the Wabash/Ann Arbor cars built in their shops. I recall he also sold Athearn hoppers with the sides laser cut for the panels (which were open on
the inside)." Pieter Roos

That's the model I was thinking about. Didn't know he did a Pennsy version?
Clark Propst











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


proto48er
 

Dennis -

I am confused about the distinction between the flat-edge panels to be used with original side stakes vs. flat-edge panels to be used with bulb angle side stakes.

Are the bulb angle side stakes a steel angle like those used as a top chord on hopper cars? If so, I believe that MP had a series of USRA "clone" double hopper conversions, about 350 cars, that used the "original side stakes" panels - in other words, they were not welded together.

The USRA-style triple hoppers of NYC used the welded panels; however, I think the C&O used the original side stake design of panels on their USRA "clone" triples.

In "O" scale, we have a couple of old imported brass models of the C&O and NYC (incorrect) triple hopper cars. I have removed the panel sides from two of these triple hoppers, and when the two middle panels are cut out, the remainder of the panels EXACTLY matches the panel design of the MP cars! These panels do not exactly match the couple of prototype NYC double hoppers converted at Avis. There must have been more than one design of panel for the cars with original side stakes.

The double hopper in "O" scale with panel sides is representative of only the WAB and AA cars, being of longer IL than the USRA cars.

Unfortunately, the only computers are at the office, and all my train stuff is at home; otherwise I could be more precise about this.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:

Period trade literature show that Union Metal Products presented three different designs for their panel side retro-fit kit (Note, almost no cars were built new as panel side cars):

Panels with flat edges designed to be riveted to the existing side stakes;

panels with flat edges designed to be riveted to new stakes made from bulb angle;

panels that had their edges formed to a channel section that were designed to have the two channel sections welded together, thereby forming "integral stakes".

As far as I know, none of the bulb angle version were ever produced. The flat edge panels were only used on the first three experimental cars the NYC converted; they used the integral stake design on all subsequent rebuilds. The flat edge panels may have been used on C&O 62000 - 63999, but these cars lacked the "blister" in the end panels over the slope sheets. As far as I know, all other conversions used the integral stake design.

The Tichy car models the original stakes in their entirety, so must be modeling the flat edge panel design. The Accurail car models the integral stake design.

Dennis Storzek


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:

Dennis -

I am confused about the distinction between the flat-edge panels to be used with original side stakes vs. flat-edge panels to be used with bulb angle side stakes.

Are the bulb angle side stakes a steel angle like those used as a top chord on hopper cars?
Yes. I can't read the call out, but the bulb angle is dimensioned as 5.475". I have photocopies of the drawings in my files; these must have come from the 1940 Car Builder's Cyc., because I think the 1931 would be too early. The most obvious spotting feature of the car AS DRAWN is the end panel "blisters" protrude 3", while the center those in the center six panels protruce 5-1/2". Since the self clearing angle at the top of the sides is the same for both, the line where the angle breaks is lower across the middle six panels than on the ends. The edges of the panels overlap behind the flat flange of the bulb angle, which is punched for a single slightly staggered line of rivets.

If so, I believe that MP had a series of USRA "clone" double hopper conversions, about 350 cars, that used the "original side stakes" panels - in other words, they were not welded together.
The blisters on the "original side stake" panels were smaller, because the stakes were wider, and thus took more room.

One has to keep in mind that none of the cars in these drawings may ever have been built; these are concept drawings, showing what the product could do. Nobody bought just one set of these (well, except maybe the GTW :-) when a railroad committed to a rebuild project they sent drawings of what they wanted to the vendor, who modified the overall sheet size and punchings to do the job. The closest may have been the NYC which initially did only three cars, IIRC (nope, just found the copy of the article from the Third Quarter 1980 Central Headlight... six cars, done in 1933). That experience must have taught them that they were likely to find as much deterioration in the bottom of the stakes as in the side sheets, so there was no advantage trying to salvage the old stakes.

Dennis