Topics

TH&B and PGE cars in the states circa 1957


Bill McCoy
 

I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come south of the border in 1957?

Thanks.

Bill McCoy
Jax, FL


al_brown03
 

Yup. Please see message #60611.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <wpmccoy@...> wrote:

I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come south of the border in 1957?

Thanks.

Bill McCoy
Jax, FL


Bryan Busséy
 

Wasn't TH&B a New York Central subsidiary at that time?

__
bb


On 11/28/2010 8:09 AM, al_brown03 wrote:

Yup. Please see message #60611.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, "Bill"
<wpmccoy@...> wrote:

I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars
belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come south
of the border in 1957?

Thanks.

Bill McCoy
Jax, FL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Benjamin Hom
 

Bill McCoy asked:
"I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars
belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come south
of the border in 1957?"

They most certainly did. Here are some examples from 1950 from Rutland shifting lists in Armand Premo's collection:

Boxcars
Car / Train No / Date
TH&B 3074 / 9 / 17-Nov-50
TH&B 3096 / 9 / 29-Nov-50
TH&B 3115 / 9 / 10-Jul-50
TH&B 3213 / 9 / 5-Jul-50
TH&B 3292 / X71 / 25-Mar-50
TH&B 4134 / 9 / 16-Jul-50
TH&B 4694 / 9 / 21-Nov-50

ONT 90350 / 9 / 21-Jul-50
ONT 90427 / 9 / 6-Jul-50
ONT 90599 / 9 / 30-Nov-50
ONT 90741 / 9 / 10-Nov-50
ONT 90822 / 9 / 30-Nov-50
ONT 90936 / 9 / 17-Nov-50

Flatcar
TH&B 1877 / 9 / 3-Nov-50


Ben Hom


Benjamin Hom
 

Bryan Busséy wrote:
"Wasn't TH&B a New York Central subsidiary at that time?"

Mostly. NYC and other subsidiaries controlled 73%; Canadian Pacific 27%.


Ben Hom


Thomas Baker
 

I have a slide of a TH&B yellow/black box car in Ft. Dodge, Iowa, photographed back in 1955.
That's not 1957, but it comes very close to the time period and suggests such cars were also around in 1957.

Tom


mopacfirst
 

I have a slide of a yellow/black TH&B car in Kansas in 1970, in a Rock Island freight.

Ron Merrick

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Baker <bakert@...> wrote:






I have a slide of a TH&B yellow/black box car in Ft. Dodge, Iowa, photographed back in 1955.
That's not 1957, but it comes very close to the time period and suggests such cars were also around in 1957.

Tom


RDG2124 <RDG2124@...>
 

Have a photo of a TH&B box car (insulated?) being switched into the Luden's (cough drops) plant at Reading, PA in 1960 if that helps. Also, one of the Morning Sun books on the Reading Co. shows a yellow TH&B box car at Reading at a slightly later date.

The 1959 opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway greatly altered traffic patterns between Canada and the U.S. Traffic that had headed south for U.S. ports, especially winter time traffic to ice free ports, vanished over night.

Evan Leisey
Bennett, CO

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill <wpmccoy@comcast.net>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:22 am
Subject: [STMFC] TH&B and PGE cars in the states circa 1957




I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come south of the border in 1957?

Thanks.

Bill McCoy
Jax, FL







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


John <jriddell@...>
 

Bill,

In 1957 the Ontario Northland (ONT) owned 1,000 40' steel boxcars, series 90000-90999. Newsprint was a major product shipped by the ONR to city newspapers including many northeastern U.S. cities. At any time a large number of these cars would have been south of the border.

A color photo of ONT 90710 in Columbus Ohio is in Morning Sun book, Canadian Railways Vol 1.

The same book also has color views of TH&B yellow and black 40' steel boxcars in Council Bluffs, Iowa,

John Riddell

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <wpmccoy@...> wrote:

I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come south of the border in 1957?

Thanks.

Bill McCoy
Jax, FL


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 28, 2010, at 9:22 AM, John wrote:


Bill,

In 1957 the Ontario Northland (ONT) owned 1,000 40' steel boxcars,
series 90000-90999. Newsprint was a major product shipped by the
ONR to city newspapers including many northeastern U.S. cities. At
any time a large number of these cars would have been south of the
border.

A color photo of ONT 90710 in Columbus Ohio is in Morning Sun book,
Canadian Railways Vol 1.

The same book also has color views of TH&B yellow and black 40'
steel boxcars in Council Bluffs, Iowa,

John Riddell
I can add to this and other reports numerous photos from my own
collection of ONT, TH&B, and Algoma Central cars below the border,
including AC single sheathed cars in Mason City, IA and Minneapolis,
an ONT steel car in San Francisco, and TH&B 40 ton USRA wood sheathed
box cars in New Haven and Kansas City.

Richard Hendrickson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bill McCoy wrote:
I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come south of the border in 1957?
I have a photo of a PGE box car in SP's Taylor Yard at Los Angeles in the late 1950s.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

From Dan Smith's slide-sharing collection, Andy Carlson sent me slides
of PGE and ONT box cars in southern California circa 1958. The PGE box car
was newly built in 1958 but the ONT box car was built in 1947.

The PGE owned fewer than 100 box cars in 1955, and only about 300 in
1959 (after buying 200 new cars in 1958). So I imagine sightings of them
would be very rare indeed in the STMFC era. I believe there was a large
aluminum smelting operation in British Columbia, in addition to lots of
lumber.

I agree with Richard AC, ONT, and TH&B box car sightings were not unusual
esp near US-Canadian border. From the ancient FCL (pre-freightcars list) I
seem to recall someone mentioned spotting an AC box car in Mexico.

Tim O'Connor

I can add to this and other reports numerous photos from my own
collection of ONT, TH&B, and Algoma Central cars below the border,
including AC single sheathed cars in Mason City, IA and Minneapolis,
an ONT steel car in San Francisco, and TH&B 40 ton USRA wood sheathed
box cars in New Haven and Kansas City.
Richard Hendrickson


Frank Valoczy <destron@...>
 

Bill McCoy wrote:
I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars
belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come
south of the border in 1957?
NAR no, as AFAIK they never had any cars in interchange.

As others have said, there are many examples of ONT/TEM, PGE, AC and TH&B
cars south of 49. I would /guess/ that QC cars also got across the border,
but my only evidence to suspect that are several photos of QC equipment as
far away from home as Vancouver, BC. Roberval-Saguenay had equipment in
interchange, but I've not seen any photos of their stuff even outside
Quebec, nevermind south of the border.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC


Ian Cranstone
 

The PGE did not really interchange its cars for a period from 1927 through 1952, so would likely have been rare sights in the U.S. at that time. At the time the only access to the PGE was to barge the cars from Vancouver to Squamish, and it wasn't until the 1950s that the line was completed south to CNR/CPR interchange in North Vancouver and north to a CNR interchange at Prince George.

The main boxcar fleet at that point were 75 steel boxcars constructed by CCF in 1947 (15 of which were converted to stock cars in 1959-60), 20 old steel frame xMKT cars (which were transferred to MoW service in the mid-1950s), and 200 steel boxcars constructed by NSC in 1958. I would guess that lumber service was a frequent use of these cars (especially the later cars with 8' doors).

In comparison, the THB & ONT fleets were huge: TH&B had 600 steel boxcars constructed by NSC (300 in 1949 and 300 in 1953), which replaced some old Fowlers and the remaining double-sheathed cars acquired from NYC in 1941 (300 cars originally).

ONT purchased 1000 cars from NSC (570 in 1947, and an additional 430 in 1948), which likely travelled extensively in paper service.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@nakina.net
http://freightcars.nakina.net
http://siberians.nakina.net

On 2010-11-28, at 1:52 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


From Dan Smith's slide-sharing collection, Andy Carlson sent me slides
of PGE and ONT box cars in southern California circa 1958. The PGE box car
was newly built in 1958 but the ONT box car was built in 1947.

The PGE owned fewer than 100 box cars in 1955, and only about 300 in
1959 (after buying 200 new cars in 1958). So I imagine sightings of them
would be very rare indeed in the STMFC era. I believe there was a large
aluminum smelting operation in British Columbia, in addition to lots of
lumber.

I agree with Richard AC, ONT, and TH&B box car sightings were not unusual
esp near US-Canadian border. From the ancient FCL (pre-freightcars list) I
seem to recall someone mentioned spotting an AC box car in Mexico.

Tim O'Connor

I can add to this and other reports numerous photos from my own
collection of ONT, TH&B, and Algoma Central cars below the border,
including AC single sheathed cars in Mason City, IA and Minneapolis,
an ONT steel car in San Francisco, and TH&B 40 ton USRA wood sheathed
box cars in New Haven and Kansas City.
Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


W.R.Dixon
 

On 2010-11-28 10:52 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

From Dan Smith's slide-sharing collection, Andy Carlson sent me slides
of PGE and ONT box cars in southern California circa 1958. The PGE box car
was newly built in 1958 but the ONT box car was built in 1947.

The PGE owned fewer than 100 box cars in 1955, and only about 300 in
1959 (after buying 200 new cars in 1958). So I imagine sightings of them
would be very rare indeed in the STMFC era. I believe there was a large
aluminum smelting operation in British Columbia, in addition to lots of
lumber.
You must remember that until about 1957 the PGE was an isolated railway connected to Vancouver, BC by car barge. At that time I would think that it would be very unlikely for a PGE car to stray very far from home.
After the track was laid to connect the PGE to North Vancouver and new equipment was purchased, the equipment would start to roam further afield. This ties in nicely with a spotting of a New PGE box car in California in 1958.

Bill Dixon


Bill McCoy
 

Thanks to everyone who replied. It looks like PGE was after my date but the TH&B 3000 series cars were regulars.

Next question. Is the IM 10'6" 8 rung ladder with Canadian sill step end ladders and the 4/4 ends correct for the TH&B?

If so I need to hunt for one.

Thanks as usual.

Bill McCoy
Jax, FL

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:



Bill McCoy asked:
"I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars
belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come south
of the border in 1957?"

They most certainly did. Here are some examples from 1950 from Rutland shifting lists in Armand Premo's collection:

Boxcars
Car / Train No / Date
TH&B 3074 / 9 / 17-Nov-50
TH&B 3096 / 9 / 29-Nov-50
TH&B 3115 / 9 / 10-Jul-50
TH&B 3213 / 9 / 5-Jul-50
TH&B 3292 / X71 / 25-Mar-50
TH&B 4134 / 9 / 16-Jul-50
TH&B 4694 / 9 / 21-Nov-50

ONT 90350 / 9 / 21-Jul-50
ONT 90427 / 9 / 6-Jul-50
ONT 90599 / 9 / 30-Nov-50
ONT 90741 / 9 / 10-Nov-50
ONT 90822 / 9 / 30-Nov-50
ONT 90936 / 9 / 17-Nov-50

Flatcar
TH&B 1877 / 9 / 3-Nov-50


Ben Hom


pge253 <gregkennelly@...>
 

As Tony Thompson and Tim O'Connor have pointed out, photographs show that PGE cars did get to Southern California in the late 1950s. These would likely have been rare to very rare sightings, however. From at least October 1939 until sometime between July 1959 and April 1961, the "Official Railway Equipment Register" carried the following statement on the PGE page: "Freight Cars owned are used only in Switching Service with direct connections." (I have a gap in my PGE pages from the ORERs between Apr 1930 and Oct. 1939 and the statement started appearing some time in that period).

Prior to October 1952, the only "direct connection" shown for the PGE was with the CPR at Vancouver, BC (via PGE-operated barge service). With the extension of the PGE to Prince George, a direct connection with CNR was established at that city. All other connections (British Columbia Electric, Great Northern, Vancouver & Lulu Island) were via the CPR at Vancouver. When the PGE was extended South to North Vancouver in 1956, a second connection to CNR was established at that point and the CPR connection was moved to North Vancouver from Vancouver itself (CPR had trackage rights over the CNR across the Second Narrows Bridge, IIRC). There was a sign at the West end of the interchange track that read "CPR and CNR engines must not proceed beyond this point".

When the PGE ceased operating its own barge service between Squamish and Vancouver in February 1957, connections were established at Squamish with the Milwaukee Road (by barge via Foss Launch & Tug Co.) and the Union Pacific (by barge via Island Tug & Barge Ltd.). At this time, the ORERs still carried the note about "Switching Service with direct connections" and the MILW and UP connections were not direct - they relied on another (marine) common carrier. A direct connection with Northern Alberta was established when the PGE reached Dawson Creek, BC in 1958. By the time the "Switching Service with direct connections" restriction was removed from the ORER entries, we are very close to the end of the era covered by this list.

Hope this sheds some light on the PGE interchange question.

Greg Kennelly
Burnaby, BC