Unsual routings?


Clark Propst
 

Below are a couple intersting routings for SFRD reefers from west of Minneapolis to somewhere on the Pennsy.

Date Initials Number Type From F City,State To T City,State Route Contents
1/15/1954 SFRD 36014 RS Green Giant Philadelphia PA Green Giant MW-MNS-RI- PRR-LV-PRR 350 12oz corn, 1250 7oz corn
1/20/1954 SFRD 14638 RS Green Giant Watertown MN Green Giant Brooklyn NY MW-MNS-RI-CSS&SB-PRR 300 12oz corn LeSuer White, 1015 7oz corn

Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


al_brown03
 

Two questions: (1) Did the first shipment come from the same Green Giant plant as the second? I'm looking at that "PRR-LV-PRR" and thinking "shipper-specified routing", but then five days later they ship by a different route. (2) Where'd PRR hand off to LV: Buffalo? Seems circuitous, but Allentown makes even less sense for a shipment to Philly.

The destinations are different Green Giant plants, but either routing could be used for either destination. I'm sure others understand this better than I.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., Clark and Eileen <cepropst@...> wrote:

Below are a couple intersting routings for SFRD reefers from west of Minneapolis to somewhere on the Pennsy.

Date Initials Number Type From F City,State To T City,State Route Contents
1/15/1954 SFRD 36014 RS Green Giant Philadelphia PA Green Giant MW-MNS-RI- PRR-LV-PRR 350 12oz corn, 1250 7oz corn
1/20/1954 SFRD 14638 RS Green Giant Watertown MN Green Giant Brooklyn NY MW-MNS-RI-CSS&SB-PRR 300 12oz corn LeSuer White, 1015 7oz corn

Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Clark Propst
 

Excel doesn't transfer well. The loads were out of Watertown Minn. One went to Philly and the other to Brooklyn.
Clark Propst


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson knows more about SFRD than I do, but I'd guess that these two carloads represent confiscation of empty SFRD cars by the local railroad to serve Green Giant. In January, SFRD may not have minded.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


earlyrail
 

Posted by: "Anthony Thompson" thompson@... sigpress
Thu Dec 9, 2010 11:56 am (PST)


Richard Hendrickson knows more about SFRD than I do, but I'd
guess that these two carloads represent confiscation of empty SFRD
cars by the local railroad to serve Green Giant. In January, SFRD may
not have minded.

Green Giant had many canning plants in southern Minnesota.
Shipping in a reefer in January makes sense.
This type of shipper specified routing was use of something that might be brokered (resold) enroute. The MNS even published a pamphlet on the time to travel various routes for lumber from the northwest.
When sold a diversion would be issued and the car routed direct to the end customer.

Howard Garner


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 9, 2010, at 11:56 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Richard Hendrickson knows more about SFRD than I do, but I'd
guess that these two carloads represent confiscation of empty SFRD
cars by the local railroad to serve Green Giant. In January, SFRD may
not have minded.
Tony is doubtless correct that these cars were captured by the local
carrier and loaded for destinations in the east in violation of the
car service rules. Even in January, SFRD wanted their empties back
so they could be cleaned and prepared for re-loading. However, as
with Pacific Fruit Express, SFRD cars were generally in much better
condition than those of other reefer operators and their agents in
the midwest and east fought a constant battle to prevent other
railroads from appropriating their cars and failing to return them.

Howard Garner's speculation about diversion is probably wrong with
regard to these cars, since they were going to other plants owned by
the same shipper. It's certainly true, however, that shippers'
traffic managers sometimes specified convoluted routes with an eye
toward profitable diversions en route, or simply to keep the cargo
"warehoused" in the cars as long as possible. The extreme example of
the latter practice was followed by years by the Hunt Foods plant in
Southern California, which cleaned out its warehouse every spring to
avoid California's annual inventory tax, routed the cars via the San
Diego & Arizona Eastern through Mexico and then had them held south
of the border where no tax would be due on their contents.

Richard Hendrickson


Tim O'Connor
 

Tony is doubtless correct that these cars were captured by the local
carrier and loaded for destinations in the east in violation of the
car service rules....
Richard Hendrickson

Richard, an SFRD reefer loaded in Minnesota and consigned to anywhere
in Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi,
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Arkansas -- or to
ANY STATE serviced directly by the Santa Fe -- could be in 100% compliance
with AAR Car Service Rules as spelled out explicity in every ORER. (Pages
748-754 of the January 1953 ORER.)

However, although the above could be in compliance, it generally would
only happen if circumstances existed that allowed it -- like no other
suitable car of more appropriate ownership was available (e.g. there is
a strong preference to send an FGE car back to Florida, or to send a
home road car, rather than send an SFRD).

Tim O'Connor


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 9, 2010, at 10:10 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Tony is doubtless correct that these cars were captured by the local
carrier and loaded for destinations in the east in violation of the
car service rules....
Richard Hendrickson
Richard, an SFRD reefer loaded in Minnesota and consigned to anywhere
in Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee,
Mississippi,
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Arkansas --
or to
ANY STATE serviced directly by the Santa Fe -- could be in 100%
compliance
with AAR Car Service Rules as spelled out explicity in every ORER.
(Pages
748-754 of the January 1953 ORER.)
Tim, at the risk of flogging a dead horse, those cars weren't
consigned to any of the places you list. They were consigned to New
York. And that's definitely a violation of the car service rules as
spelled out explicitly, etc.

Richard Hendrickson


al_brown03
 

I'm not sure I understand the car-service rules. The following is a question. Using an SFRD reefer loaded in Minnesota as an example: consignment to Illinois, where the Santa Fe goes, would be within the rules; but consignment *through* Illinois to somewhere beyond, e.g. Pennsylvania, wouldn't?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

On Dec 9, 2010, at 10:10 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Tony is doubtless correct that these cars were captured by the local
carrier and loaded for destinations in the east in violation of the
car service rules....
Richard Hendrickson
Richard, an SFRD reefer loaded in Minnesota and consigned to anywhere
in Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee,
Mississippi,
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Arkansas --
or to
ANY STATE serviced directly by the Santa Fe -- could be in 100%
compliance
with AAR Car Service Rules as spelled out explicity in every ORER.
(Pages
748-754 of the January 1953 ORER.)
Tim, at the risk of flogging a dead horse, those cars weren't
consigned to any of the places you list. They were consigned to New
York. And that's definitely a violation of the car service rules as
spelled out explicitly, etc.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tim O'Connor
 

Richard

I relish horsemeat :-) Ah... the big Ah... IF the route in ANY PART
were to touch Santa Fe rails, then there is NO RESTRICTION on the
destination.

So for example, a load from Minnesota might be routed to Fort Madison
Iowa to Santa Fe rails first... and from there to New York. Without the
exact route we can't say whether the car was in violation or not.

Tim O'Connor

Tony is doubtless correct that these cars were captured by the local
carrier and loaded for destinations in the east in violation of the
car service rules....
Richard Hendrickson
Richard, an SFRD reefer loaded in Minnesota and consigned to anywhere
in Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee,
Mississippi,
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Arkansas --
or to
ANY STATE serviced directly by the Santa Fe -- could be in 100%
compliance
with AAR Car Service Rules as spelled out explicity in every ORER.
(Pages
748-754 of the January 1953 ORER.)
Tim, at the risk of flogging a dead horse, those cars weren't
consigned to any of the places you list. They were consigned to New
York. And that's definitely a violation of the car service rules as
spelled out explicitly, etc.

Richard Hendrickson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

I relish horsemeat :-) Ah... the big Ah... IF the route in ANY PART
were to touch Santa Fe rails, then there is NO RESTRICTION on the
destination.

So for example, a load from Minnesota might be routed to Fort Madison
Iowa to Santa Fe rails first... and from there to New York. Without the
exact route we can't say whether the car was in violation or not.
But TIm, we do know the routing--all railroads were listed--and ATSF is not among them. Gonna keep beating that horse?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

I didn't see the original message... Ok, so it was routed via
Rock Island from the MNS. Interesting, since that is even more
circuitous than the route I suggested via Fort Madison (since
Rock Island would have to take it to Des Moines first). But is
the exact route always known BEFORE the load is picked up for
delivery?

The horse is only dead when the sheriff says it's dead. :-)

Tim O'Connor

But TIm, we do know the routing--all railroads were listed--and
ATSF is not among them. Gonna keep beating that horse?

Tony Thompson


Clark Propst
 

The car came from west of the Twin Cities. That's why the MNS took it down to Northfield for the Rock Island who may well have taken it to Peoria? Was the Pennsy there?

The other car went to Chicago.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ok, so it was routed via Rock Island from the MNS. Interesting, since >that is even more circuitous >
Tim O'Connor


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
But is the exact route always known BEFORE the load is picked up for delivery?
Normally the shipper has provided a bill of lading to the agent or other official so that all info for the waybill is available. It was shipper's right to choose the routing and many if not most did so. They could always tell the agent to choose it, who would of course attempt to maximize mileage on his own railroad, subject to the "approved routing" book. The bill of lading, or at least parts of it, would be supplied to the Car Distributor or equivalent, just so that person WOULD know how to choose the empty.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Greg Martin
 

Tim writes:


Tim O'Connor wrote:
But is the exact route always known BEFORE the load is picked up for delivery?<
Tim specifically ask "the exact route" and I would say not always, the person who ordered the car was told that the car was "finaling on the PRR in NY" but might not know the exact route that the car was taking i.e., Benson tells his secretary "Betty, call Smith and order up two cars, one for Philly and one for N.Y. I am going to lunch..." it's that simple... and she does what she is told.

Tony says:

"Normally the shipper has provided a bill of lading to the agent or other official so that all info for the waybill is available. It was shipper's right to choose the routing and many if not most did so. They could always tell the agent to choose it, who would of course attempt to maximize mileage on his own railroad, subject to the "approved routing" book. The bill of lading, or at least parts of it, would be supplied to the Car Distributor or equivalent, just so that
person WOULD know how to choose the empty.

Tony Thompson"

And Tony's correct. The local clerk would contact the car distributor and the car distributor would instruct the clerk to supply, "those two Santa Fe cars you have and I'll call Williams at the Santa Fe and get his Okay..." Then the specific routing would be established and then Betty would type up the Bill of Lading for her boss, he (Benson) takes it to the agent or clerk to have a waybill drafted once the car is loading and the bill of lading will have Benson's route on it. The car distributor says, "Great, I bust my butt to get that SOB Benson a couple of cars and he short hauls me..."

Yes the car is out of the service rules but the bitch will come when there is a load in California and that local agent is out trying to find an empty for his local shipper... Been there done that...

Remember a railroad that violates these service rules can be fined and the first fine is $35.00 in today's dollars, I'm not sure what it was then.

Greg Martin







-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, Dec 10, 2010 1:33 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Unsual routings?




Tim O'Connor wrote:
But is the exact route always known BEFORE the load is picked up for
delivery?
Normally the shipper has provided a bill of lading to the agent
or other official so that all info for the waybill is available. It
was shipper's right to choose the routing and many if not most did so.
They could always tell the agent to choose it, who would of course
attempt to maximize mileage on his own railroad, subject to the
"approved routing" book. The bill of lading, or at least parts of it,
would be supplied to the Car Distributor or equivalent, just so that
person WOULD know how to choose the empty.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Greg Martin wrote:
Tim specifically ask "the exact route" and I would say not always, the person who ordered the car was told that the car was "finaling on the PRR in NY" but might not know the exact route that the car was taking i.e., Benson tells his secretary "Betty, call Smith and order up two cars, one for Philly and one for N.Y. I am going to lunch..." it's that simple... and she does what she is told.
Keep in mind that if Benson's company ships all the time to Philly and New York, a plausible idea since all are Green Giant facilities in this case, what Benson likely says to Betty is, "Betty, call Smith and order two cars, Philly and New York, usual route." Nobody had to figure out the routing or the applicable tariff because it's stuff they ship ALL THE TIME.

And Tony's correct. The local clerk would contact the car distributor and the car distributor would instruct the clerk to supply, "those two Santa Fe cars you have and I'll call Williams at the Santa Fe and get his Okay..."
Back in the day, it's just as likely that the car distributor tells the clerk, "use those two SFRD cars, always nice to screw the Santa Fe" or words to that effect (this tended to apply to ALL big roads, I'm not singling out Santa Fe), since he knows perfectly well (a) that Santa Fe wants 'em back and (b) car service rules are against it. He of course is supplying his shipper with quality cars, so Green Giant sure won't complain. Personal and organizational feuds and grievances could always play a role, and when you interview folks from those days, you hear it plenty. And his boss will NEVER get on his back because of Rule Zero.
Reading books, and articles in _Railway Age_ from that era, it's clear that violations of car service rules were pretty common, more so than most authorities liked, but I never saw anything about fines actually being applied. Remember that the Car Service rules were either mandatory or recommendatory--most were the latter, only a few the former.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


SUVCWORR@...
 

Yes. The PRR interchanged with RI at Chicago, East St Louis, St. Louis vIa TRRA, Englewood, Peoria and Washington Heights, IL.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: cepropst@q.com
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, Dec 10, 2010 4:15 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Unsual routings?




The car came from west of the Twin Cities. That's why the MNS took it down to

Northfield for the Rock Island who may well have taken it to Peoria? Was the

Pennsy there?



The other car went to Chicago.

Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ok, so it was routed via Rock Island from the MNS. Interesting, since >that is
even more circuitous >

Tim O'Connor








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Douglas Harding
 

Interesting, Tim shows he does not know his railroad geography. To get to
Fort Madison IA from Minnesota by rail is not easy, nor direct. Fort Madison
was served by the ATSF and the CB&Q. The ATSF line going from Kansas City to
Chicago, nowhere near Minnesota. The CBQ line coming up along the river from
St. Louis to Burlington IA, again nowhere near Minnesota. The most direct
routing from Minnesota would have been the MW-RI-CBQ to Fort Madison, via
the old BCR&N line.



And the RI would not have to go to Des Moines to get to Chicago from
Minnesota. There was a RI line from Manly Iowa that went to West Liberty IA
via Cedar Rapids. Also known as the BCR&N line.



If the routing from the example cited by Clark had been MW-MSTL-ATSF (at
Nemo IL) -PRR (at Peoria) then we could say the SFRD car actually traveled
on ATSF tracks, but it would not have gone through Fort Madison, without
going back west. Nemo was a major interchange for the ATSF for traffic to
Minnesota and the Twin Cities. The M&StL hauled a lot of SFRD reefers.



Doug Harding (who now lives 40miles from Fort Madison)

www.iowacentralrr.org


Tim O'Connor
 

Doug, I was thinking of the MILW line the follows the Mississippi
down to Clinton Iowa, then CB&Q to Fort Madison and the Santa Fe...
but you're right none of the routes is direct to Fort Madison. I
just picked that as a spot to give ATSF a longer haul to Chicago
than say, Streator, or Galesburg.

It's not clear to me looking at a map that the BCR&N line via Cedar
Rapids is shorter (and probably definitely not faster) than the main
line Mason City to Des Moines and from there via Ottumwa IA down to
a point of interchange with ATSF.

Tim O'

Interesting, Tim shows he does not know his railroad geography. To get to
Fort Madison IA from Minnesota by rail is not easy, nor direct. Fort Madison
was served by the ATSF and the CB&Q. The ATSF line going from Kansas City to
Chicago, nowhere near Minnesota. The CBQ line coming up along the river from
St. Louis to Burlington IA, again nowhere near Minnesota. The most direct
routing from Minnesota would have been the MW-RI-CBQ to Fort Madison, via
the old BCR&N line.

Doug Harding (who now lives 40miles from Fort Madison)

www.iowacentralrr.org


lstt100
 

From my AAR files on Car Service Rules:

"Special Car Order 45 issued in 1942 and reissued in 1948, suspends application of Car Service Rules 2 and 3 as to refrigerator cars owned by the A.T.& S.F. Railway in order to permit handling of SFRD refrigerators on a basis similar to that applying to privately owned railroad-controlled refrigerator cars." (Dated Dec 1954)

The railroad using the SFRD cars was in compliance with the Car Service Rules at the time they were loaded.

Dan Holbrook