Forgotten Accurail Great Northern 2 Bay Canton Hopper


gary laakso
 

In all the discussion of twin hopper cars, no one as mentioned the strange choice by Accurail of the Great Northern "Canton" hopper. GN had 200 of them in the 73000-73199 series, purchased second hand after a re-building in 1929-1930. Overland Models imported 4 versions of this car: original, rapid discharge rebuild, zinc concentrate rebuild of 30 cars in 1957 and a version used in captive sand service. None of these Ajin models feature rivets on both sides of the 4 vertical braces installed on each side in the original re-build. Accurail captured the rivets in its plastic model.

Great Northern's other twin hopper series consisted of 500 cars in the 73200-73699 series purchased new in 1931 from Standard Steel. This makes the Accurail choice of the smallest class of hoppers on GN that had unique to it rebuild features all the more perplexing. It appears the the Sunshine Models Illinois Centrail hoppers cars are a very close match..... evil grin.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...


billsoman
 

What's so strange about their choice? Made great sense to me <vbg>

--- Bill Sornsin, modeling GN's Cascade Division in 1955

--- In STMFC@..., "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

In all the discussion of twin hopper cars, no one as mentioned the strange choice by Accurail of the Great Northern "Canton" hopper. GN had 200 of them in the 73000-73199 series, purchased second hand after a re-building in 1929-1930. Overland Models imported 4 versions of this car: original, rapid discharge rebuild, zinc concentrate rebuild of 30 cars in 1957 and a version used in captive sand service. None of these Ajin models feature rivets on both sides of the 4 vertical braces installed on each side in the original re-build. Accurail captured the rivets in its plastic model.

Great Northern's other twin hopper series consisted of 500 cars in the 73200-73699 series purchased new in 1931 from Standard Steel. This makes the Accurail choice of the smallest class of hoppers on GN that had unique to it rebuild features all the more perplexing. It appears the the Sunshine Models Illinois Centrail hoppers cars are a very close match..... evil grin.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:
...This makes the Accurail choice of the smallest class of hoppers on GN that had unique to it rebuild features all the more perplexing...

Not perplexing at all, when you know the back story. It's a matter of fortuitous coincidence, the kind that having total control over your tooling allows you to take advantage of.

When the Accurail USRA twin hopper was designed in the early nineties, one of the issues was how to handle the parting line (the surface where the two mold halves separate) below the car sides. The central section needed to follow the inward slope of the hopper bays, while the outer sections needed to follow the outward angle of the sill steps, which were to be part of the body molding, as was common in those days. The transition between the two angular surfaces had to be a pair of surfaces at a third angle, so they wouldn't rub and gall as the mold halves came together. All ten of these angular surfaces had to be within +/-.0002" of true location, other wise the parting line would flash. Today this would be relatively easy to do on a CNC controlled wire EDM, but at that was beyond the capabilities of the shop selected to build the tool, and to contract the work out to a shop that specialize in what was a pretty exotic process for the time would be expensive. The agreed upon solution was to split the sides and bottom into three pieces, which would allow all the required angles to be generated on a surface grinder. The sides were designed with the joint along the outside edge of the stake over the bolster, where it would be invisible.

Fast forward eight or ten years, and we decided to build the panel side version of the car. Of necessity, the side would follow the same three part format. One of the Great Northern color picture books had just come in, and as I was paging through it, I realized that these GN cars differed from the standard USRA design only in the portion of the side between the bolsters, which happened to be a separate piece in the mold. I proposed that instead of grinding two center sections to size, I do four at once, and finish the last two as the alternate sides for the "Canton" car, to be used with the original ends, where all the fussy cavity work is. Sales (Bob) was leery of a single prototype car, until I pointed out that the prototype was GN, and there were three different paint schemes we could do. It has been more than successful, considering the minimal amount of tooling required.

When I designed our 70 ton triple, I used the same three piece side construction, not so much to allow generation of the shut-off angles, since the decision to use separate sill steps changed that, but because it occurred to me that the entire ends of the car from the bolsters outward were directly applicable to a 55 ton twin. The downside of this foresight is when it was time to actually do the twin, I was locked into the "AAR Standard" end geometry. Yeah, I could do the "AAR Alternate" hat section post details in the center section, but they'd have to be mated to the end sections with the crease that ends 18" or so from the end of the car, and nobody wants a "foobie" carbody. The people who wouldn't be concerned aren't concerned that the lettering is on the AAR Standard bodies either.

And so it goes.

Dennis Storzek
Accurail, Inc.


bongiovanni12001
 

Dennis: modeling the Virginian, I'm very glad you did the Canton hopper. [yes, it's not quite correct for Virginian, and yes, the Virginian only had it in the original configuration for a few years. I'll take what I can get for now].

Frank Bongiovanni


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:



Dennis: modeling the Virginian, I'm very glad you did the Canton hopper. [yes, it's not quite correct for Virginian, and yes, the Virginian only had it in the original configuration for a few years. I'll take what I can get for now].

Frank Bongiovanni
Did you ever find a photo of the cars lettered for the Virginian? Several people were after us to do them in that lettering, but could never supply a photo. I always suspected that while the Virginian had cars built by the elusive Canton Car Co., they were just regular looking USRA clones, and thus didn't stand out in photos. I'd like to be proved wrong, however.

The Canton Car Co. is even harder to find info on that Siems-Stembel of St. Paul. At least that company eventually became part of Standard Car Co, and thence Pullman-Standard.

Dennis


David
 

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:
I always suspected that while the Virginian had cars built by the elusive Canton Car Co., they were just regular looking USRA clones, and thus didn't stand out in photos.
They were rebuilt with ordinary 7-post sides in (1943, off the top of my head).

The Canton Car Co. is even harder to find info on that Siems-Stembel of St. Paul. At least that company eventually became part of Standard Car Co, and thence Pullman-Standard.
John Corns' second W&LE book has a few pages on Canton. Started out in a W&LE shop in 1927, was folded up into the SSC side of P-S by 1934 and closed down in 1937.

David Thompson


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

While on the subject of "odd" hopper cars, any chance of an Illinois Central two-bay (or three-bay) hopper being brought out by Accurail?? (hint, hint...)

So far there is lttle out there, other than resin, for these very distinctive cars, and some of us could use a few.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@> wrote:



Dennis: modeling the Virginian, I'm very glad you did the Canton hopper. [yes, it's not quite correct for Virginian, and yes, the Virginian only had it in the original configuration for a few years. I'll take what I can get for now].

Frank Bongiovanni
Did you ever find a photo of the cars lettered for the Virginian? Several people were after us to do them in that lettering, but could never supply a photo. I always suspected that while the Virginian had cars built by the elusive Canton Car Co., they were just regular looking USRA clones, and thus didn't stand out in photos. I'd like to be proved wrong, however.

The Canton Car Co. is even harder to find info on that Siems-Stembel of St. Paul. At least that company eventually became part of Standard Car Co, and thence Pullman-Standard.

Dennis


Ray Breyer
 

While on the subject of "odd" hopper cars, any chance of an
Illinois Central two-bay (or three-bay) hopper being brought
out by Accurail??  (hint, hint...)

So far there is lttle out there, other than resin, for
these very distinctive cars, and some of us could use a
few.

Steve Lucas.
You mean like this?
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/ART/7700/7711.jpg

Or this?
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/art/2400/2410.jpg

Or this?
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/art/2500/2518.jpg

Or this?
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/ART/7500/7517.JPG

Or even this?
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/ART/2700/2717.jpg

Heck, even 5th Avenue got into the act with IC hoppers:
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/art/custom/carshops/pdf/order.pdf

Accurail has been pretty decent about supporting IC paint schemes, even if they might not always paint cars in exactly what we might need (of the five cars above, I can only use the twin offset. I usually get more IC cars from 5th Avenue).

Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Though the Accurail models are very nicely done, I'm thinking more of an accurate Illinios Central hopper car like the ones coloured in this photo--

http://media.photobucket.com/image/illinois%20central%20hopper%20car%20ghq/GHQ_Micro_Armour/ZM1%20O-4/ZM2%20Illinois%20Central%20Decals/05-IC-hopper-detailspadina.jpg

If the link doesn't work, here's the article containing the photo, and another of these cars, plus an IC folio drawing of the car-

http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3290

That flat area behind the ladder and at the other end of the car near the bulb angle is very distictive. So far one is faced with bashing and/or resin kits to get these cars. And I personally can use a few of these, as can many steam-era modellers. They were found at many loco terminals loaded with loco coal. Those modelling ohter roads than CN can chime in with their road's use of these cars. I seem to recall that the NYC used loco coal shipped in IC hoppers?

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:

While on the subject of "odd" hopper cars, any chance of an
Illinois Central two-bay (or three-bay) hopper being brought
out by Accurail??  (hint, hint...)

So far there is lttle out there, other than resin, for
these very distinctive cars, and some of us could use a
few.

Steve Lucas.
You mean like this?
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/ART/7700/7711.jpg

Or this?
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/art/2400/2410.jpg

Or this?
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/art/2500/2518.jpg

Or this?
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/ART/7500/7517.JPG

Or even this?
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/ART/2700/2717.jpg

Heck, even 5th Avenue got into the act with IC hoppers:
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/art/custom/carshops/pdf/order.pdf

Accurail has been pretty decent about supporting IC paint schemes, even if they might not always paint cars in exactly what we might need (of the five cars above, I can only use the twin offset. I usually get more IC cars from 5th Avenue).

Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


David
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

Though the Accurail models are very nicely done, I'm thinking more of an accurate Illinios Central hopper car like the ones coloured in this photo--
http://media.photobucket.com/image/illinois%20central%20hopper%20car%20ghq/GHQ_Micro_Armour/ZM1%20O-4/ZM2%20Illinois%20Central%20Decals/05-IC-hopper-detailspadina.jpg
This design started out as the Enterprise offset-side twin hopper shown in various CBCs in the mid-late 1920s. The original design was 34'9" inside length and had stamped corner sills, but the design was modified to conform to the standard AAR dimensions in the 1930s. It is a signature IC car, but there were no other volume buyers.

David Thompson