IC GS gons


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

Now I can use that D/A GS gon that I bought years ago (this kit is wrong for CN Enterprise-design GS gons) AND model an IC loco car carrying loco coal.

Serendipity?

Steve Lucas.
Not quite. The big problem with the Detail Associates GS gon for those of us who model the mid-west is DA only ever modeled the Enterprise "link" door mechanism. This featured custom roller chain style chain on the door closing shafts that wound over itself, looking like disks when the doors were closed.

Most of the mid-western roads used the somewhat older "chain" mechanisms, where standard logging chain style chain was wound around a worm gear shaped casting as it pulled the doors closed. A small point, but one that looks distinctly different.

Red Caboose made alternate shafts with a pretty decent rendition of the chain on the spiral castings that they packed in their IC, Soo Line, perhaps other kits, but I don't know if the parts were ever available separately. If so, I imagine they could be made to fit the DA car.

Dennis


Rich C
 

I was fortunate to find an IC GS gon at a show. My plan is to make it into a "cob" loading gon (I know wrong group, because they were converted in the 60's) . When they were converted the drop doors were welded shut and the chain mechanisms removed.
 
Rich Christie

--- On Fri, 1/28/11, soolinehistory <destorzek@...> wrote:


From: soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
Subject: [STMFC] IC GS gons
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:10 AM


 





--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

Now I can use that D/A GS gon that I bought years ago (this kit is wrong for CN Enterprise-design GS gons) AND model an IC loco car carrying loco coal.

Serendipity?

Steve Lucas.
Not quite. The big problem with the Detail Associates GS gon for those of us who model the mid-west is DA only ever modeled the Enterprise "link" door mechanism. This featured custom roller chain style chain on the door closing shafts that wound over itself, looking like disks when the doors were closed.

Most of the mid-western roads used the somewhat older "chain" mechanisms, where standard logging chain style chain was wound around a worm gear shaped casting as it pulled the doors closed. A small point, but one that looks distinctly different.

Red Caboose made alternate shafts with a pretty decent rendition of the chain on the spiral castings that they packed in their IC, Soo Line, perhaps other kits, but I don't know if the parts were ever available separately. If so, I imagine they could be made to fit the DA car.

Dennis











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tim O'Connor
 

Dennis would you mind posting an image of those spiral castings
from Red Caboose? This is the first time I've heard of them -- Why
didn't Red Caboose publicize that? :-( (rhetorical question)

Tim O'Connor

Red Caboose made alternate shafts with a pretty decent rendition of the chain on the spiral castings that they packed in their IC, Soo Line, perhaps other kits, but I don't know if the parts were ever available separately. If so, I imagine they could be made to fit the DA car.

Dennis


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Just a guess, Dennis, but would chain wound up on these shafts conceal the spiral castings that they were wound upon? In which case scale chain wound on a shaft should work for a model of a GS gon with closed doors.

Here's a photo of an NP GS gon that appears to have the chain arrangement that you mention (scroll about a third of the way down)--

http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5621021474/m/1582960107

And the kit's supplied "roller chain" could come in useful for those bucket list CN GS gons!

Can anyone reccommend an on-line souirce for IC GS gon photos?

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@> wrote:

Now I can use that D/A GS gon that I bought years ago (this kit is wrong for CN Enterprise-design GS gons) AND model an IC loco car carrying loco coal.

Serendipity?

Steve Lucas.
Not quite. The big problem with the Detail Associates GS gon for those of us who model the mid-west is DA only ever modeled the Enterprise "link" door mechanism. This featured custom roller chain style chain on the door closing shafts that wound over itself, looking like disks when the doors were closed.

Most of the mid-western roads used the somewhat older "chain" mechanisms, where standard logging chain style chain was wound around a worm gear shaped casting as it pulled the doors closed. A small point, but one that looks distinctly different.

Red Caboose made alternate shafts with a pretty decent rendition of the chain on the spiral castings that they packed in their IC, Soo Line, perhaps other kits, but I don't know if the parts were ever available separately. If so, I imagine they could be made to fit the DA car.

Dennis


water.kresse@...
 

Are these "big" 46 ft couple distance 70-ton GS gons? . . . like the Erie or C &I M gons?



Al Kresse

Romeo, Michigan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 1:45:39 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: IC GS gons

Just a guess, Dennis, but would chain wound up on these shafts conceal the spiral castings that they were wound upon?  In which case scale chain wound on a shaft should work for a model of a GS gon with closed doors.

Here's a photo of an NP GS gon that appears to have the chain arrangement that you mention (scroll about a third of the way down)--

 http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5621021474/m/1582960107

And the kit's supplied "roller chain" could come in useful for those bucket list CN GS gons!

Can anyone reccommend an on-line souirce for IC GS gon photos?

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@> wrote:

Now I can use that D/A GS gon that I bought years ago (this kit is wrong for CN Enterprise-design GS gons) AND model an IC loco car carrying loco coal.  

Serendipity?

Steve Lucas.
Not quite. The big problem with the Detail Associates GS gon for those of us who model the mid-west is DA only ever modeled the Enterprise "link" door mechanism. This featured custom roller chain style chain on the door closing shafts that wound over itself, looking like disks when the doors were closed.

Most of the mid-western roads used the somewhat older "chain" mechanisms, where standard logging chain style chain was wound around a worm gear shaped casting as it pulled the doors closed. A small point, but one that looks distinctly different.

Red Caboose made alternate shafts with a pretty decent rendition of the chain on the spiral castings that they packed in their IC, Soo Line, perhaps other kits, but I don't know if the parts were ever available separately. If so, I imagine they could be made to fit the DA car.

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

Just a guess, Dennis, but would chain wound up on these shafts conceal the spiral castings that they were wound upon? In which case scale chain wound on a shaft should work for a model of a GS gon with closed doors.

Here's a photo of an NP GS gon that appears to have the chain arrangement that you mention (scroll about a third of the way down)--

http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5621021474/m/1582960107
That's the ones, Steve, The problem is the smallest "scale" chain available is about 2X too big, and without anything under it just looks light and airy. Plus, you need the little cast roller at the end of the chain wrap. Keep in mind, you need sixteen on the same shaft, but need them interspersed by the car's crossbearers. Oh, Yeah, you also have to make sure you wind them as rights and lefts. Much easier to get some poor manufacturer to make it, if you can :-)

But even if you succeed, there's no guarantee it will be available forever. I just checked the RC cars on the Intermountain web site, and it appears the correct parts are no longer made:

http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/redcaboose/html/RR-35015.htm

To answer Tim's question about why RC didn't publicize them, maybe this is why. Maybe they didn't mold worth a damn, and they decided to do without, that no one would notice... Safe bet, because, it appears that for the last six or eight years, no one has. Maybe I've got the only parts that ever got made.

Now I'm going to have to dig the darned things out and get a photo, just to prove what once was :-(

Dennis


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



Are these "big" 46 ft couple distance 70-ton GS gons? . . . like the Erie or C &I M gons?



Al Kresse
No, just run-of-the-mill 41'-6" fifty ton cars. Here's a photo of a member of the next series:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/np/np50558awb.jpg

Dennis


water.kresse@...
 

Thanks,



The southeastern Ohio roads had similar composite gons built around 1905.  What drove the need for side dumping vs. between the tracks dumping? . . . running up a trestle and dumping into bunkers on one side only?



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 2:47:54 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: IC GS gons



--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



Are these "big" 46 ft couple distance 70-ton GS gons? . . . like the Erie or C &I M gons?



Al Kresse
No, just run-of-the-mill 41'-6" fifty ton cars. Here's a photo of a member of the next series:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/np/np50558awb.jpg

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



Thanks,



The southeastern Ohio roads had similar composite gons built around 1905.  What drove the need for side dumping vs. between the tracks dumping? . . . running up a trestle and dumping into bunkers on one side only?



Al Kresse
The 1905 era gons with drop doors didn't have doors over the trucks, so weren't "self clearing" and still required men to shovel about half the load out through the doors.

The quest for a self clearing cars took two paths... install inclined floors over the trucks (slope sheets) thereby creating what became the modern cross hopper, but which is unsuitable for other loads, such as pulpwood or structural steel, or arrange the doors on a flat floor car to open outward, where the end doors will clear the trucks (they don't open quite as far, but sumtin' is betteran nuttin', as they say). Cross hoppers became the car of choice in the eastern coalfields, because the vast majority of loads were coal. GS gons became popular west of the Mississippi because the vast majority of loads weren't.

Dennis


Dennis Storzek
 

Ahhh, I thought have thought to do this earlier. I just recently purchased this slide on E-bay, and the seller still has his illustration up. This is one of the few (maybe only) photos I've ever seen of one of the Soo GS cars loaded with coal.

This is the car the RC car with chain devices is intended to model:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=140497758933

This is the current Intermountain assembled car:

http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/redcaboose/html/RR-35015.htm

You can see the different appearance of the chain hardware. You'll also note that the stub sills at the ends of the sides are wrong, but this is basically a carve-away job. Biggest problem is the two rung sill steps. The Society has these, done for the Speedwitch car, but not packed for sale yet.

Dennis


water.kresse@...
 

So the goal is higher utilization of empties on the return trips?  If you look at the coal cars going up to Toledo, at best, a sixth of came back down with iron ore and every so often some few more with limestone.



Can you put these cars through a lift and tilt or rotary dumper?



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:18:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: IC GS gons



--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



Thanks,



The southeastern Ohio roads had similar composite gons built around 1905.  What drove the need for side dumping vs. between the tracks dumping? . . . running up a trestle and dumping into bunkers on one side only?



Al Kresse
The 1905 era gons with drop doors didn't have doors over the trucks, so weren't "self clearing" and still required men to shovel about half the load out through the doors.

The quest for a self clearing cars took two paths... install inclined floors over the trucks (slope sheets) thereby creating what became the modern cross hopper, but which is unsuitable for other loads, such as pulpwood or structural steel, or arrange the doors on a flat floor car to open outward, where the end doors will clear the trucks (they don't open quite as far, but sumtin' is betteran nuttin', as they say). Cross hoppers became the car of choice in the eastern coalfields, because the vast majority of loads were coal. GS gons became popular west of the Mississippi because the vast majority of loads weren't.

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



So the goal is higher utilization of empties on the return trips?  If you look at the coal cars going up to Toledo, at best, a sixth of came back down with iron ore and every so often some few more with limestone.



Can you put these cars through a lift and tilt or rotary dumper?



Al Kresse
Or utilization at all if there happens to be no coal to haul at the moment.

Yes, you can rotary dump a wooden gon; I just saw an image on Shorpy a while ago of a wooden gon in a rotary dumper, but the site seems to be down at the moment, so I can't search for a link.

But consider this... most eastern coal went to large industries... steel mills, power plants, coal wharfs for export, the kinds of places that had the volume to make a rotary dumper worthwhile.

Most western coal went to small businesses, because by and large, the big businesses didn't exist out west in the time frame we are talking about. Even the railroads don't count as big businesses... they bought a lot of coal, but wanted it delivered to a thousand little facilities in every Podunk town across the land.

There was a rotary dumper on the narrow gauge at Salida, CO, that dumped NG gons into standard gauge cars for wider distribution, so such a thing was possible, but required the concentration of business that was less likely to be found out west. Here's the best image a two minute search could find:

http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page99/salida450.jpg

Dennis


water.kresse@...
 

Dennis, Thanks for the short and logical historical update.  Al

----- Original Message -----
From: "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 4:30:51 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: IC GS gons



--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



So the goal is higher utilization of empties on the return trips?  If you look at the coal cars going up to Toledo, at best, a sixth of came back down with iron ore and every so often some few more with limestone.



Can you put these cars through a lift and tilt or rotary dumper?



Al Kresse
Or utilization at all if there happens to be no coal to haul at the moment.

Yes, you can rotary dump a wooden gon; I just saw an image on Shorpy a while ago of a wooden gon in a rotary dumper, but the site seems to be down at the moment, so I can't search for a link.

But consider this... most eastern coal went to large industries... steel mills, power plants, coal wharfs for export, the kinds of places that had the volume to make a rotary dumper worthwhile.

Most western coal went to small businesses, because by and large, the big businesses didn't exist out west in the time frame we are talking about. Even the railroads don't count as big businesses... they bought a lot of coal, but wanted it delivered to a thousand little facilities in every Podunk town across the land.

There was a rotary dumper on the narrow gauge at Salida, CO, that dumped NG gons into standard gauge cars for wider distribution, so such a thing was possible, but required the concentration of business that was less likely to be found out west. Here's the best image a two minute search could find:

http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page99/salida450.jpg

Dennis


David
 

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:

The 1905 era gons with drop doors didn't have doors over the trucks, so weren't "self clearing" and still required men to shovel about half the load out through the doors.
That depends on the car in question. The Ralston GS gons certainly did have doors over the trucks, as did some Cambria cars of that era.

The broader point about the volume used by the customer is valid, though it should be tempered by era. The stereotypical GS gondola with a full complement of drop doors appeared just after 1900 (once steel framing made it practical), and initially found buyers in coastal New England, the Midwest, and most roads that made it to the Pacific. After 1915 or so, the range of purchasers steadily retreated westward so that the Pacific roads were about the only large buyers after 1950.

David Thompson


water.kresse@...
 

David,



I wondered about the strength of the side assemblies get the loads thru the body bolster when being clamped in a dumper and then tilted or rotated.  The earlier cars had very rigid, continuous stable timbers along their side assemblies.  With a steel side structure we are looking beams and shear plates to handle these loads.



Was there an angular center sill cap to divert the coal thru the openings or was it flat a foot plus across?



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "jaydeet2001" <jaydeet2001@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:50:14 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: IC GS gons

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:

The 1905 era gons with drop doors didn't have doors over the trucks, so weren't "self clearing" and still required men to shovel about half the load out through the doors.
That depends on the car in question. The Ralston GS gons certainly did have doors over the trucks, as did some Cambria cars of that era.

The broader point about the volume used by the customer is valid, though it should be tempered by era. The stereotypical GS gondola with a full complement of drop doors appeared just after 1900 (once steel framing made it practical), and initially found buyers in coastal New England, the Midwest, and most roads that made it to the Pacific. After 1915 or so, the range of purchasers steadily retreated westward so that the Pacific roads were about the only large buyers after 1950.

David Thompson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]