PS-0 end drawings needed


Jim King
 

The earliest CBC I have is 1953 which is too late for the PS-0 end. If
someone has a 1940-era CBC showing dimensions on this end, I'd greatly
appreciate a scan of it. I've decided that the TC boxcar end pattern
provided to me by the previous owner is not detailed enough and has several
errors in rib width and placement.



Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

Ph. (828) 777-5619

<www.smokymountainmodelworks.com>


water.kresse@...
 

Can you define a PS-0 car? . . . the last of their riveted box cars?  . . . like the C&O 14000-14999 40' 6" box cars?  Did P-S advertise a PS-0 car?



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "SMMW" <jimking3@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, February 4, 2011 5:24:54 PM
Subject: [STMFC] PS-0 end drawings needed

The earliest CBC I have is 1953 which is too late for the PS-0 end.  If
someone has a 1940-era CBC showing dimensions on this end, I'd greatly
appreciate a scan of it.  I've decided that the TC boxcar end pattern
provided to me by the previous owner is not detailed enough and has several
errors in rib width and placement.

 

Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

Ph. (828) 777-5619

<www.smokymountainmodelworks.com>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Benjamin Hom
 

Al Kresse asked:
"Can you define a PS-0 car? . . . the last of their riveted box cars? . . . like the C&O 14000-14999 40' 6" box cars?"

No. "PS-0 or PS-Zero" was John Nehrich's lexicon for two groups of Pullman's pre-war lightweight welded boxcars, the first built in 1936 and acquired by CGW, B&LE, and UP; the second group built in 1936 and acquired by NKP, W&LE, and PM. See the November 1993 and February 1994 issues of Railmodel Journal for more information. Additionally, builders photos of these cars appeared in the 1940 CBC.


"Did P-S advertise a PS-0 car?"

If they did, it wasn't as a "PS-0" for the reason above.


Ben Hom


Clark Propst
 

Stan Rydarowicz sells the Pullman propitiatory ends that were used on some riveted paneled box cars. He has both the 10' and 10'6" ends.
Jim Hayes has Stan's parts list and contact info on his site. Might be in the group files too, but not up to date.

Clark Propst


Brian Carlson
 

PS-0 was coined by modelers, I think John Nehrich was the first. PS-0 usually refers to the Pullman Standard cars built in the late 30 early 40’s. The WLE had some built in February 1940 that passed to the NKP. These ends were called car builders corrugated ends by the WLE and NKP. PS-0 is one of those terms that should go away.



Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga, NY



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of water.kresse@...
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 5:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] PS-0 end drawings needed







Can you define a PS-0 car? . . . the last of their riveted box cars? . . . like the C&O 14000-14999 40' 6" box cars? Did P-S advertise a PS-0 car?


Benjamin Hom
 

I wrote:
"'PS-0 or PS-Zero' was John Nehrich's lexicon for two groups of Pullman's pre-war lightweight welded boxcars, the first built in 1936 and acquired by CGW, B&LE, and UP; the second group built in 1936 and acquired by NKP, W&LE, and PM."

Trying to get responses out in a hurry - the second group of cars was built in 1940. Thanks to Brian Carlson for the correction. Apologies for any confusion.


Ben Hom


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "SMMW" <jimking3@...> wrote:

The earliest CBC I have is 1953 which is too late for the PS-0 end. If
someone has a 1940-era CBC showing dimensions on this end, I'd greatly
appreciate a scan of it. I've decided that the TC boxcar end pattern
provided to me by the previous owner is not detailed enough and has several
errors in rib width and placement.



Jim King
Jim, I have some bad news for you. As far as I know, that end was never drawn in the CBC, anyway, the drawings that have made it into the CBC do not really contain enough information to completely define the surfaces of the ends.

I would suggest you identify as may car series as possible that had the end in question, the contact the Pullman Library at the Illinois Railway Museum. IRM is the repository for the largest collection of extant Pullman and Pullman-Standard drawings, and should have what you need. You can contact the curator via E0mail at:

<Ted Anderson> tedander@...

Dennis


water.kresse@...
 

We have un-screened PM pix somewhere in addition to PM FC book.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin Hom" <b.hom@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, February 4, 2011 5:56:18 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] PS-0 end drawings needed

Al Kresse asked:
"Can you define a PS-0 car? . . . the last of their riveted box cars?  . . . like the C&O 14000-14999 40' 6" box cars?"

No.  "PS-0 or PS-Zero" was John Nehrich's lexicon for two groups of Pullman's pre-war lightweight welded boxcars, the first built in 1936 and acquired by CGW, B&LE, and UP; the second group built in 1936 and acquired by NKP, W&LE, and PM.  See the November 1993 and February 1994 issues of Railmodel Journal for more information.  Additionally, builders photos of these cars appeared in the 1940 CBC.


"Did P-S advertise a PS-0 car?"

If they did, it wasn't as a "PS-0" for the reason above.


Ben Hom



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tim O'Connor
 

Plus one oddball, Rock Island #149041, built in 1939.

Roster Reference: http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/153/11083/november-1993-page-29

My notes say that John Nehrich's article Mainline Modeler Feb 1988 pp.40-45
has some PS-0 drawings, but I haven't searched for that issue to see whether
there is a drawing of the ends or not.

I call the ends "Pullman Standard carbuilder ends" because they appeared
on a number of other PS box cars: CGW 91000-91099, CGW 92000-92149, C&EI
low numbered box cars ("Dixie Flyers"), SAL AF-1/AF-2 (I think), and maybe
the KCS 50' express box cars.

The UP series 186000-186049 were actually in two classes B-50-34 and -35.
The -34 had peaked Murphy roofs and the -35 had the PS welded radial roof.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------------

"'PS-0 or PS-Zero' was John Nehrich's lexicon for two groups of Pullman's pre-war lightweight welded boxcars, the first built in 1936 and acquired by CGW, B&LE, and UP; the second group built in 1936 and acquired by NKP, W&LE, and PM."

Trying to get responses out in a hurry - the second group of cars was built in 1940. Thanks to Brian Carlson for the correction. Apologies for any confusion.

Ben Hom


al_brown03
 

The drawings in Nehrich's article in MM 2/88 indeed include ends.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Plus one oddball, Rock Island #149041, built in 1939.

Roster Reference: http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/153/11083/november-1993-page-29

My notes say that John Nehrich's article Mainline Modeler Feb 1988 pp.40-45
has some PS-0 drawings, but I haven't searched for that issue to see whether
there is a drawing of the ends or not.

I call the ends "Pullman Standard carbuilder ends" because they appeared
on a number of other PS box cars: CGW 91000-91099, CGW 92000-92149, C&EI
low numbered box cars ("Dixie Flyers"), SAL AF-1/AF-2 (I think), and maybe
the KCS 50' express box cars.

The UP series 186000-186049 were actually in two classes B-50-34 and -35.
The -34 had peaked Murphy roofs and the -35 had the PS welded radial roof.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------------
"'PS-0 or PS-Zero' was John Nehrich's lexicon for two groups of Pullman's pre-war lightweight welded boxcars, the first built in 1936 and acquired by CGW, B&LE, and UP; the second group built in 1936 and acquired by NKP, W&LE, and PM."

Trying to get responses out in a hurry - the second group of cars was built in 1940. Thanks to Brian Carlson for the correction. Apologies for any confusion.

Ben Hom


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

There is or was a CGW PS-0 at the museum in Boone, Iowa.
Gene Green


Clark Propst
 

There is also a revited car with those ends at Oelwein.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

There is or was a CGW PS-0 at the museum in Boone, Iowa.
Gene Green


Bill Welch
 

There are photos of C&EI headend cars in one of RP CYC's that look like 1937 design cars with these ends. These were riveted.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., cepropst@... wrote:

There is also a revited car with those ends at Oelwein.
Clark Propst


--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@> wrote:

There is or was a CGW PS-0 at the museum in Boone, Iowa.
Gene Green


Jim King
 

Jim, I have some bad news for you. As far as I know, that end was never
drawn in the CBC, anyway, the drawings that have made it into the CBC do not
really contain enough information to completely define the surfaces of the
ends.

I would suggest you identify as may car series as possible that had the end
in question, the contact the Pullman Library at the Illinois Railway Museum.
IRM is the repository for the largest collection of extant Pullman and
Pullman-Standard drawings, and should have what you need. You can contact
the curator via E0mail at:

<Ted Anderson> <mailto:tedander%40core.com> tedander@...

Dennis



Dennis . in my CBC issues from 1953 onward, there are numerous, highly
detailed drawings of ends and doors that I routinely use to create CAD
models for patterns. Yes, not every dimension is shown but a high-rez scan,
enlarged, printed and scaled image will yield sufficient information using a
scaling factor and calipers. In some cases, I've worked off broadside
photos with only 1 know dimension. It can be done without builder's
in-process drawings, just not as quickly.



Attached is a photo of the "PS-0" end (or whatever you want to call it) that
TC boxcars used. These were built in 1941 and rebuilt in 1958 with diagonal
panel roofs and door opening corner braces. Doors and ends are
as-delivered.



Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

Ph. (828) 777-5619

<www.smokymountainmodelworks.com>


rwitt_2000
 

Tim,

Unfortunately I believe John Nehrich PS-0 designation has created
confusion. In my humble opinion there are two groups of early
Pullman-Standard boxcars. The first group from the mid-1930s that were
all welded and marketed as "light weight" cars. I believe some used
Con-Ten and other special steels.

There is another group of cars built from ~1940 to ~1941 such as the WLE
and KCS express boxcars referenced by Tim, that utilized existing steel
freight construction methods with riveted sides, etc. where
Pullman-Standard supplied what Tim refers to as "Car Builder" ends.
There where two versions of these one for square corner posts and one
modified for "W" corner posts.

The B&O ordered cars from P-S in 1941 that had the car builder ends.
Their class M-55a and M-55b and their first group of 50-ft automobile
cars the M-57, M-57a with Evans auto loaders, and M-57b with end doors.
The 40-ft cars followed AAR 1937 standard with an IH of 10'-0" and these
ends had 4/5 pattern. The 50-ft cars had an IH of 10'-6" and these ends
had a 5/5 pattern where the upper corrugation was slightly shorter. The
corrugation had the usual complex shape and tapered to a blunt point at
their ends. The B&OHS has drawings for these ends, as yet not digitized,
and as noted in another post, Ted Anderson at the Pullman Library of the
IRM should have the original drawings for all these boxcars.

I believe we need some other designations to separate the early
"light-weight" all welded boxcars built by Pullamn-Standard, John
Nehrich's PS-0, from the later cars that followed traditional freight
car construction methods for that time, e.g. riveted construction using
the usual thickness of plate steel for the various components.

Regards,

Bob Witt


Tim O'Connor wrote:


Plus one oddball, Rock Island #149041, built in 1939.

Roster Reference:
http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/153/11083/november-1993-page-29

My notes say that John Nehrich's article Mainline Modeler Feb 1988
pp.40-45
has some PS-0 drawings, but I haven't searched for that issue to see
whether
there is a drawing of the ends or not.

I call the ends "Pullman Standard carbuilder ends" because they
appeared
on a number of other PS box cars: CGW 91000-91099, CGW 92000-92149,
C&EI
low numbered box cars ("Dixie Flyers"), SAL AF-1/AF-2 (I think), and
maybe
the KCS 50' express box cars.

The UP series 186000-186049 were actually in two classes B-50-34 and
-35.
The -34 had peaked Murphy roofs and the -35 had the PS welded radial
roof.


-----------------------------------------
"'PS-0 or PS-Zero' was John Nehrich's lexicon for two groups of
Pullman's pre-war lightweight welded boxcars, the first built in 1936
and acquired by CGW, B&LE, and UP; the second group built in 1936 and
acquired by NKP, W&LE, and PM."

Trying to get responses out in a hurry - the second group of cars was
built in 1940. Thanks to Brian Carlson for the correction. Apologies
for any confusion.

Ben Hom


Ed Hawkins
 

On Feb 5, 2011, at 4:57 PM, SMMW wrote:

I would suggest you identify as may car series as possible that had
the end
in question, the contact the Pullman Library at the Illinois Railway
Museum.
IRM is the repository for the largest collection of extant Pullman and
Pullman-Standard drawings, and should have what you need. You can
contact
the curator via E0mail at:

<Ted Anderson> <mailto:tedander%40core.com> tedander@...
Jim,
These cars were produced in two lot number groups by Pullman-Standard.
To find the applicable drawings, Ted will ask you for the lot numbers
if you don't know the actual drawing numbers.

Lot 5584, built in 1938 for CGW, B&LE, UP
Lot 5604A/B/C, built in 1940 for NKP, PM, and WLE, respectively
All cars were built at the P-S plant at Michigan City, Indiana.

As noted by Bob Witt, the ends of these two groups weren't the same.
The 1938-built cars had ends with square corners and 9 corrugations.
The 9 corrugations (4 on top end panel and 5 on bottom) were all the
same length, and the pointeds end of each corrugation stopped short of
the corners.

The 1940-built cars had ends with round corners and 10 corrugations (5
on both the top and bottom end panels). The top corrugation was shorter
than the others, and the pointed ends of the top corrugation stopped
short of the round corners. The pointed ends of the other 9
corrugations wrapped around the corners a slight amount.

There are two good in-service photos that could be of help, both of
which are 3/4 views showing the end in good light. CGW 90036 has a New
7-38 stencil and is available from Arnold Menke. NKP 20177 has a 5-43
reweigh stencil (built 1-40) and is available from Jay Williams. Hope
this helps.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins