OK, What Kind of Truck is This?


Richard Wilkens <railsnw@...>
 


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 8, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Richard Wilkens wrote:

From the Cornell University collection:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739520322/in/
set-72157621743681242/
An experimental truck of some sort, Richard, as I've never seen
evidence of a truck of this design in revenue service. And the
dating is wildly incorrect, as both the side frames and bolster are
steel castings, technology that wasn't developed until decades after
1870. Cast steel U-section side frames weren't introduced until the
1920s. As to the function of those cylindrical housings above the
journal boxes, I can only speculate - so I won't.

Richard Hendrickson


Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

If you look closely at the left side of the truck, there appears to be a
bar running thru the U section, continuing under the center of the
sideframe, thence to the other cylinder. In the absence of obvious
springs, and what looks to be rubber absorbers in those cylinders, I think
they act as the springs for the truck.

--
Thanks!

Brian Paul Ehni



From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:49:18 -0800
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] OK, What Kind of Truck is This?








On Feb 8, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Richard Wilkens wrote:

From the Cornell University collection:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739520322/in/
set-72157621743681242/
An experimental truck of some sort, Richard, as I've never seen
evidence of a truck of this design in revenue service. And the
dating is wildly incorrect, as both the side frames and bolster are
steel castings, technology that wasn't developed until decades after
1870. Cast steel U-section side frames weren't introduced until the
1920s. As to the function of those cylindrical housings above the
journal boxes, I can only speculate - so I won't.

Richard Hendrickson


Bill Schneider
 

There are a number of photos of this truck in the Diver collection, including
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739524144/in/set-72157621743681242/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3738733693/in/set-72157621743681242/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739532930/in/set-72157621743681242/

Frist, as Richard H. points out, the dates are misleading. They refer to the lifespan of the photographer, DeForest Diver. Diver was an engineer on the O&W and also an avid photographer. He also seems to have a bit of inventor in him, holding a patent (http://nyow.org/diver.html)

As for the truck, looking at the other photos it seems that there is some sort of cable system to control sideframe pivot. I seem to recall seeing these photos in print somewhere....

Bill Schneider

From: Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:49 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] OK, What Kind of Truck is This?


On Feb 8, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Richard Wilkens wrote:

From the Cornell University collection:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739520322/in/
set-72157621743681242/
An experimental truck of some sort, Richard, as I've never seen
evidence of a truck of this design in revenue service. And the
dating is wildly incorrect, as both the side frames and bolster are
steel castings, technology that wasn't developed until decades after
1870. Cast steel U-section side frames weren't introduced until the
1920s. As to the function of those cylindrical housings above the
journal boxes, I can only speculate - so I won't.

Richard Hendrickson







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hello Group,

There are a couple of more photos of this truck in the set of photos on the Flickr site. One of these is a detail photo of one end of the truck frame. In it one can see what looks to be a cable that appears to be connected to some type of springing media -- perhaps rubber, perhaps an air bladder. This cable then extends the length of the truck, passing under a casting attached to the bolster, then up to the opposite upper corner and its springing media.

Overall, an interesting truck.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Feb 8, 2011, at 9:12 AM, Brian Paul Ehni wrote:

If you look closely at the left side of the truck, there appears to be a
bar running thru the U section, continuing under the center of the
sideframe, thence to the other cylinder. In the absence of obvious
springs, and what looks to be rubber absorbers in those cylinders, I think
they act as the springs for the truck.

--
Thanks!

Brian Paul Ehni

From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:49:18 -0800
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] OK, What Kind of Truck is This?

On Feb 8, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Richard Wilkens wrote:

From the Cornell University collection:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739520322/in/
set-72157621743681242/
An experimental truck of some sort, Richard, as I've never seen
evidence of a truck of this design in revenue service. And the
dating is wildly incorrect, as both the side frames and bolster are
steel castings, technology that wasn't developed until decades after
1870. Cast steel U-section side frames weren't introduced until the
1920s. As to the function of those cylindrical housings above the
journal boxes, I can only speculate - so I won't.

Richard Hendrickson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Bill Schneider" <bschneider424@...> wrote:

There are a number of photos of this truck in the Diver collection, including
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739524144/in/set-72157621743681242/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3738733693/in/set-72157621743681242/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739532930/in/set-72157621743681242/

Frist, as Richard H. points out, the dates are misleading. They refer to the lifespan of the photographer, DeForest Diver. Diver was an engineer on the O&W and also an avid photographer. He also seems to have a bit of inventor in him, holding a patent (http://nyow.org/diver.html)

As for the truck, looking at the other photos it seems that there is some sort of cable system to control sideframe pivot. I seem to recall seeing these photos in print somewhere....

Bill Schneider
Richard,

The location in the collection materials is given as, "1948/Box 3/Folder 79/18". 1948 seems plausible.

Bill,

If you look in the middle photo you cite, you can see the cable, and the last photo makes it pretty obvious that the cable runs under the central casting that the bolster bears upon, then up to the other spring housing, although we can't tell if the enclosed springs are steel or rubber.

Dennis


Tim O'Connor
 

I agree with Bill -- as soon as I saw it, I thought this probably
is a "steering" or "radial" truck. (Don't ask me why they call them
radial.) The idea is that the axle at all times is kept 90 degrees
to the rail, which eliminates sliding on the rail that is responsible
for all the squealing we're used to hearing on curves.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------------

As for the truck, looking at the other photos it seems that there is some
sort of cable system to control sideframe pivot. I seem to recall seeing
these photos in print somewhere.... Bill Schneider


Brian Carlson
 

Um Tim, your sentence right after (Don't ask me why they call them radial.) is WHY they are called radial
Brian J Carlson P.E.
 
Who prefers to design radial curved girder bridges vs, non-radial ones.

--- On Tue, 2/8/11, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: OK, What Kind of Truck is This?
To: STMFC@...
Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 2:06 PM


 




I agree with Bill -- as soon as I saw it, I thought this probably
is a "steering" or "radial" truck. (Don't ask me why they call them
radial.) The idea is that the axle at all times is kept 90 degrees
to the rail, which eliminates sliding on the rail that is responsible
for all the squealing we're used to hearing on curves.

Tim O'Connor



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tim O'Connor
 

Yeah, well, I got beat up for saying "radial rivet seams" instead
of "circumferential seams" so I'm not taking any chances anymore...

Tim O'

Um Tim, your sentence right after (Don't ask me why they call them radial.) is WHY they are called radial
Brian J Carlson P.E.

Who prefers to design radial curved girder bridges vs, non-radial ones.


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I agree with Bill -- as soon as I saw it, I thought this probably
is a "steering" or "radial" truck. (Don't ask me why they call them
radial.) The idea is that the axle at all times is kept 90 degrees
to the rail, which eliminates sliding on the rail that is responsible
for all the squealing we're used to hearing on curves.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------------
Tim,

Hate to rain on your parade, but I don't see any mechanism for changing the distance between the axle bearings, which would be a requirement to align the axles radial to the curve. The bearings seem to be fixed in boxes cast integral with each sideframe. All I see is a way to transmit the load to some sort of encased springs, using a tension member, cable, no less. I doubt the AAR ever gave this design its blessing for interchange service. I'm rather surprised it even made it past the drawing stage, but some inventors are stubborn.

Dennis


Malcolm H. Houck
 

I doubt the AAR ever gave this design its blessing for interchange
service. I'm rather surprised it even made it past the drawing stage,
but some inventors are stubborn.

Dennis


Not only did DeForrest "Pat" Diver live on Linden Avenue in
Middletown, New York, and not only was he an accomplished
photographer, but he ran a commercial photography business after
his retirement from the "right side" ca. 1940.

The photos of this "experimental" truck appear to have taken at
the doors of the NYO&W shops, off Wisner Ave., in Middletown.
I might hazard a guess that these images were part of a commission
undertaken on behalf of the inventor or builder.

As the O&W descended into the abyss of Bankruptcy every means and
effort was employed to corner some revenue. One income stream that was
tried was contract work for other rail lines or other rail related
enterprises.

The immense and well equipped shops provided heavy "Class" repairs for
locally housed Erie engines, and then for the NYS&W after it became
independent from the Erie. Short line Middletown & Uionville regularly
sent its
engines to the nearby Middletown Shops of the O&W for heavy repair work
and heavy Class overhauls. For its own purposes the O&W undertook heavy
repairs and major rebuilds to reboiler 55 or more of its ca. 1900 - 1910
acquired
engines for superheated operation.

The NYO&W worked with the firm of Motor Terminals Inc. to develop
COFC containers and hardware ca. 1937 for loading both demountable
merchandise and insulated fluid milk containers (the latter being
employed by Muller Dairies).

With a complete foundry, heat treating plant and fully equipped heavy
machine shop I would hazard a further guess that this experimental truck
was produced at the O&W shops as a part of a contract with the original
inventor.

It is not a coincidence that Pat Diver photo images have shown up on the
Cornell
University site inasmuch as DeForrest "Pat" Diver's grandson is affiliated
with the
Cornell library system, and Cornell was a repository of first instance for
many, many
historic images produced by the elder Mr. Diver.

Mal Houck


Richard Orr <SUVCWORR@...>
 

That was my take on it as well. There is a large circular object under each
end of the bolster with a "band" of some substance passing beneath and
connecting to the cylinders. It is almost as if they were trying to use
heavy duty rubber bands in place of the springs.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Brian Paul Ehni
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 12:12 PM
To: STMFC List
Subject: Re: [STMFC] OK, What Kind of Truck is This?

If you look closely at the left side of the truck, there appears to be a
bar running thru the U section, continuing under the center of the
sideframe, thence to the other cylinder. In the absence of obvious
springs, and what looks to be rubber absorbers in those cylinders, I think
they act as the springs for the truck.

--
Thanks!

Brian Paul Ehni



From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:49:18 -0800
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] OK, What Kind of Truck is This?








On Feb 8, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Richard Wilkens wrote:

From the Cornell University collection:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739520322/in/
set-72157621743681242/
An experimental truck of some sort, Richard, as I've never seen
evidence of a truck of this design in revenue service. And the
dating is wildly incorrect, as both the side frames and bolster are
steel castings, technology that wasn't developed until decades after
1870. Cast steel U-section side frames weren't introduced until the
1920s. As to the function of those cylindrical housings above the
journal boxes, I can only speculate - so I won't.

Richard Hendrickson







------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Tim O'Connor
 

Dennis

Hate to rain on YOUR parade, but as this document shows, the
amount of deflection of the axle bearings is quite small. In
this case, 3/16" using "resilient pads". Something like that
could easily fit inside those integral cast boxes.

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/trnews/rpo/rpo.trn134.pdf

Tim O'Connor

Hate to rain on your parade, but I don't see any mechanism for changing the distance between the axle bearings, which would be a requirement to align the axles radial to the curve. The bearings seem to be fixed in boxes cast integral with each sideframe. All I see is a way to transmit the load to some sort of encased springs, using a tension member, cable, no less. I doubt the AAR ever gave this design its blessing for interchange service. I'm rather surprised it even made it past the drawing stage, but some inventors are stubborn.

Dennis


Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

If this were some sort of radial truck using something inside the
journals, though, they would want to document THAT, as opposed to what
they DID document. They were quite careful to document to obvious housings
on the ends of the sideframes, the cable, etc.

--
Thanks!

Brian Paul Ehni



From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 18:07:41 -0500
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: OK, What Kind of Truck is This?








Dennis

Hate to rain on YOUR parade, but as this document shows, the
amount of deflection of the axle bearings is quite small. In
this case, 3/16" using "resilient pads". Something like that
could easily fit inside those integral cast boxes.

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/trnews/rpo/rpo.trn134.pdf

Tim O'Connor

Hate to rain on your parade, but I don't see any mechanism for changing
the distance between the axle bearings, which would be a requirement to
align the axles radial to the curve. The bearings seem to be fixed in
boxes cast integral with each sideframe. All I see is a way to transmit
the load to some sort of encased springs, using a tension member, cable,
no less. I doubt the AAR ever gave this design its blessing for
interchange service. I'm rather surprised it even made it past the
drawing stage, but some inventors are stubborn.

Dennis


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Dennis

Hate to rain on YOUR parade, but as this document shows, the
amount of deflection of the axle bearings is quite small. In
this case, 3/16" using "resilient pads". Something like that
could easily fit inside those integral cast boxes.

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/trnews/rpo/rpo.trn134.pdf

Tim O'Connor
Yeah, Tim, but I still don't see anything that looks like a "steering arm", or a "steering arm center connection". What I do see are stops on the bolster that would lead me to believe it is some sort of swing motion truck, after all, the traditional swing motion trucks rely on swing links, under tension, to do their job. We can't see what the casting under the bolster actually does; with enough side play, the cable would act as swing links, although I don't see how they would lift the weight of the car, which is required to bring the truck back to equilibrium.

Then again, since these were apparently never commercialized, maybe the inventor missed that part, too.

Dennis


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

What's wrong with informed speculation so long as it is labeled as such?

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson

As to the function of those cylindrical housings above the journal boxes, I can only speculate - so I won't.


Tim O'Connor
 

I didn't say it was a GOOD design. :-)

Tim

Yeah, Tim, but I still don't see anything that looks like a "steering arm", or a "steering arm center connection". What I do see are stops on the bolster that would lead me to believe it is some sort of swing motion truck, after all, the traditional swing motion trucks rely on swing links, under tension, to do their job. We can't see what the casting under the bolster actually does; with enough side play, the cable would act as swing links, although I don't see how they would lift the weight of the car, which is required to bring the truck back to equilibrium.

Then again, since these were apparently never commercialized, maybe the inventor missed that part, too.

Dennis


spsalso
 

The journal box covers look to me to read:


"Gould Depew NY"



Ed

Edward Sutorik


Allen Cain <allencain@...>
 

Pure speculation from an old mechanical engineer but the cylinders look a
lot like what you see on the semi-trailers on the highways. This, combined
with the absence of springs leads me to speculate that these are pneumatic
shock absorbers. If you look closely, there appears to be a secondary frame
behind the side frame which supports the bolster(?). So the load goes down
through the bolster thru the interior frame passing through the shock
absorbers and then into the visible side frames and to the wheels.





Again, just speculation.



Allen Cain