B&O Freight Car Brown, was Re: B&O Wagontop


Jim Mischke
 

Prior to 1945, B&O used a hand mixed paint with a ferrous oxide pigment on its boxcars and cabooses, calling the recipe "Freight Car Brown".

Ferrous oxide is basically aged rust, a brown hue with a reddish overtone.

A genuine B&O paint chip for this color has not emerged, and color photos of this paint in decent shape are rare. There is a newly painted wood M-15j in a Jack Delano Kodachrome image at Galewood in Chicago at the Library of Congress web site. I work from that.

This brown paint weathers quickly (rust paint on a rust prone steel boxcar) into a myriad of effects. Sometimes it feels quixotic to search for the original color when it doesn't last. Still, it would be good to start with some documented B&O practice, however elusive.

I am looking at Tamika military model paints for inspiration, their red-brown in particular, but will withhold judgement for the time being, consider it research in progress.



In 1945, B&O began to specify bright red oxide commercial paints for new cars and repairs. Ed Hawkin's ACF paint chip collection for B&O boxcar orders shows that this transition was not uniform nor timely. Photo evidence suggests some B&O car shops kept using freight car brown for years to paint repaired cars.

The best paint for this B&O bright red oxide is Scalecoat Oxide Red #2002. I will also use Floquil Zinc Chromate primer for variety.

--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Gentlemen, any idea of which model paints, if any out of the bottle best
match this " Alkali Resisting Brown" ?

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:




On Jan 28, 2011, at 10:07 PM, rwitt_2000 wrote:

I believe the post-WWII "13 States" cars should be painted oxide red
not
the earlier dark brown. Maybe Ed Hawkins can find the bill of
materials
to verify the paint specifications for the 500 class M-58a built by
AC&F
in 1947 for the B&O.
Bob,
You are correct. According to the paint sample for the M-58A 50' box
cars built by AC&F in 10-47, the cars received Pittsburgh Synthetic
paint (an oxide shade). So the switch from brown to oxide red
occurred sometime between 12-41, when the M-55A/B box cars that
received "Alkali Resisting Brown" were built, and 10-47. This oxide
shade was similar to that used by ACL, CNW, L&N, UP and others during
the postwar years.

A portion of the M-60 and M-61 50' box cars built in 1951 received an
even lighter-brighter shade of oxide red, much like the color Western
Maryland used during the 1950s, while the balance received the same
oxide shade as the M-58A cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...




Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

jim_mischke wrote:
Ferrous oxide is basically aged rust, a brown hue with a reddish overtone.
Tiny nit, Jim, but it's the other way around. Rust is basically ferrous oxide, though hydrated and with other compounds also, depending on the environment and temperature of the rusting.
Ferrous oxide, like most natural oxides, is stable as is (note I didn't say "rust"). But PAINT can weather and deteriorate, even if its pigment is stable.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


gettheredesigns <rick@...>
 

Tiny nit, Tony and Jim. Ferrous oxide is black (Fe+2). Ferric oxide (Fe+3) is the red-brown pigment, and also rust, with Tony's caveats. Different oxidation state = different crystalline structure = different color.

With that said, the term "ferrous" has a more general meaning (outside of chemistry) of "containing iron", and that might be what the paint-specifiers intended.

Peace, Rick Aylsworth

Tiny nit, Jim, but it's the other way around. Rust is
basically ferrous oxide, though hydrated and with other compounds
also, depending on the environment and temperature of the rusting.
Ferrous oxide, like most natural oxides, is stable as is (note
I didn't say "rust"). But PAINT can weather and deteriorate, even if
its pigment is stable.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


O Fenton Wells
 

Gentlemen, It took awhile but the topic finally came down to my level.
Scalecoat Oxide Red and Floquil Zinc Chromate Primer. Got it. I have one
more Sunshine B&O wagontop to do. This will help.
Thanks
Regards,
Fenton

On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 3:39 PM, jim_mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:





Prior to 1945, B&O used a hand mixed paint with a ferrous oxide pigment on
its boxcars and cabooses, calling the recipe "Freight Car Brown".

Ferrous oxide is basically aged rust, a brown hue with a reddish overtone.

A genuine B&O paint chip for this color has not emerged, and color photos
of this paint in decent shape are rare. There is a newly painted wood M-15j
in a Jack Delano Kodachrome image at Galewood in Chicago at the Library of
Congress web site. I work from that.

This brown paint weathers quickly (rust paint on a rust prone steel boxcar)
into a myriad of effects. Sometimes it feels quixotic to search for the
original color when it doesn't last. Still, it would be good to start with
some documented B&O practice, however elusive.

I am looking at Tamika military model paints for inspiration, their
red-brown in particular, but will withhold judgement for the time being,
consider it research in progress.

In 1945, B&O began to specify bright red oxide commercial paints for new
cars and repairs. Ed Hawkin's ACF paint chip collection for B&O boxcar
orders shows that this transition was not uniform nor timely. Photo evidence
suggests some B&O car shops kept using freight car brown for years to paint
repaired cars.

The best paint for this B&O bright red oxide is Scalecoat Oxide Red #2002.
I will also use Floquil Zinc Chromate primer for variety.

--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Gentlemen, any idea of which model paints, if any out of the bottle best
match this " Alkali Resisting Brown" ?

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:




On Jan 28, 2011, at 10:07 PM, rwitt_2000 wrote:

I believe the post-WWII "13 States" cars should be painted oxide red
not
the earlier dark brown. Maybe Ed Hawkins can find the bill of
materials
to verify the paint specifications for the 500 class M-58a built by
AC&F
in 1947 for the B&O.
Bob,
You are correct. According to the paint sample for the M-58A 50' box
cars built by AC&F in 10-47, the cars received Pittsburgh Synthetic
paint (an oxide shade). So the switch from brown to oxide red
occurred sometime between 12-41, when the M-55A/B box cars that
received "Alkali Resisting Brown" were built, and 10-47. This oxide
shade was similar to that used by ACL, CNW, L&N, UP and others during
the postwar years.

A portion of the M-60 and M-61 50' box cars built in 1951 received an
even lighter-brighter shade of oxide red, much like the color Western
Maryland used during the 1950s, while the balance received the same
oxide shade as the M-58A cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins






--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Jim Mischke
 

Let me reclarify:

Scalecoat Oxide Red and Floquil Zinc Chromate Primer are good for B&O bright oxide red, painted on B&O boxcars 1945 to about 1964

Your question was about B&O freight car brown, painted on B&O boxcars before 1945 and a little bit afterwards. I am looking at a Tamika military model red brown paint for that. I do not have the product number close at hand. This is fresh off the griddle research subject to peer review, not established wisdom.

--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Gentlemen, It took awhile but the topic finally came down to my level.
Scalecoat Oxide Red and Floquil Zinc Chromate Primer. Got it. I have one
more Sunshine B&O wagontop to do. This will help.
Thanks
Regards,
Fenton

On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 3:39 PM, jim_mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:





Prior to 1945, B&O used a hand mixed paint with a ferrous oxide pigment on
its boxcars and cabooses, calling the recipe "Freight Car Brown".

Ferrous oxide is basically aged rust, a brown hue with a reddish overtone.

A genuine B&O paint chip for this color has not emerged, and color photos
of this paint in decent shape are rare. There is a newly painted wood M-15j
in a Jack Delano Kodachrome image at Galewood in Chicago at the Library of
Congress web site. I work from that.

This brown paint weathers quickly (rust paint on a rust prone steel boxcar)
into a myriad of effects. Sometimes it feels quixotic to search for the
original color when it doesn't last. Still, it would be good to start with
some documented B&O practice, however elusive.

I am looking at Tamika military model paints for inspiration, their
red-brown in particular, but will withhold judgement for the time being,
consider it research in progress.

In 1945, B&O began to specify bright red oxide commercial paints for new
cars and repairs. Ed Hawkin's ACF paint chip collection for B&O boxcar
orders shows that this transition was not uniform nor timely. Photo evidence
suggests some B&O car shops kept using freight car brown for years to paint
repaired cars.

The best paint for this B&O bright red oxide is Scalecoat Oxide Red #2002.
I will also use Floquil Zinc Chromate primer for variety.

--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@> wrote:

Gentlemen, any idea of which model paints, if any out of the bottle best
match this " Alkali Resisting Brown" ?

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@> wrote:




On Jan 28, 2011, at 10:07 PM, rwitt_2000 wrote:

I believe the post-WWII "13 States" cars should be painted oxide red
not
the earlier dark brown. Maybe Ed Hawkins can find the bill of
materials
to verify the paint specifications for the 500 class M-58a built by
AC&F
in 1947 for the B&O.
Bob,
You are correct. According to the paint sample for the M-58A 50' box
cars built by AC&F in 10-47, the cars received Pittsburgh Synthetic
paint (an oxide shade). So the switch from brown to oxide red
occurred sometime between 12-41, when the M-55A/B box cars that
received "Alkali Resisting Brown" were built, and 10-47. This oxide
shade was similar to that used by ACL, CNW, L&N, UP and others during
the postwar years.

A portion of the M-60 and M-61 50' box cars built in 1951 received an
even lighter-brighter shade of oxide red, much like the color Western
Maryland used during the 1950s, while the balance received the same
oxide shade as the M-58A cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


O Fenton Wells
 

No sweat Jim, I will use the 13 states herald so your recommendation is
perfect.
Thanks, Fenton

On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 7:32 PM, jim_mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:





Let me reclarify:

Scalecoat Oxide Red and Floquil Zinc Chromate Primer are good for B&O
bright oxide red, painted on B&O boxcars 1945 to about 1964

Your question was about B&O freight car brown, painted on B&O boxcars
before 1945 and a little bit afterwards. I am looking at a Tamika military
model red brown paint for that. I do not have the product number close at
hand. This is fresh off the griddle research subject to peer review, not
established wisdom.


--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Gentlemen, It took awhile but the topic finally came down to my level.
Scalecoat Oxide Red and Floquil Zinc Chromate Primer. Got it. I have one
more Sunshine B&O wagontop to do. This will help.
Thanks
Regards,
Fenton
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 3:39 PM, jim_mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:





Prior to 1945, B&O used a hand mixed paint with a ferrous oxide pigment
on
its boxcars and cabooses, calling the recipe "Freight Car Brown".

Ferrous oxide is basically aged rust, a brown hue with a reddish
overtone.

A genuine B&O paint chip for this color has not emerged, and color
photos
of this paint in decent shape are rare. There is a newly painted wood
M-15j
in a Jack Delano Kodachrome image at Galewood in Chicago at the Library
of
Congress web site. I work from that.

This brown paint weathers quickly (rust paint on a rust prone steel
boxcar)
into a myriad of effects. Sometimes it feels quixotic to search for the
original color when it doesn't last. Still, it would be good to start
with
some documented B&O practice, however elusive.

I am looking at Tamika military model paints for inspiration, their
red-brown in particular, but will withhold judgement for the time
being,
consider it research in progress.

In 1945, B&O began to specify bright red oxide commercial paints for
new
cars and repairs. Ed Hawkin's ACF paint chip collection for B&O boxcar
orders shows that this transition was not uniform nor timely. Photo
evidence
suggests some B&O car shops kept using freight car brown for years to
paint
repaired cars.

The best paint for this B&O bright red oxide is Scalecoat Oxide Red
#2002.
I will also use Floquil Zinc Chromate primer for variety.

--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@> wrote:

Gentlemen, any idea of which model paints, if any out of the bottle
best
match this " Alkali Resisting Brown" ?

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@> wrote:




On Jan 28, 2011, at 10:07 PM, rwitt_2000 wrote:

I believe the post-WWII "13 States" cars should be painted oxide
red
not
the earlier dark brown. Maybe Ed Hawkins can find the bill of
materials
to verify the paint specifications for the 500 class M-58a built
by
AC&F
in 1947 for the B&O.
Bob,
You are correct. According to the paint sample for the M-58A 50'
box
cars built by AC&F in 10-47, the cars received Pittsburgh Synthetic
paint (an oxide shade). So the switch from brown to oxide red
occurred sometime between 12-41, when the M-55A/B box cars that
received "Alkali Resisting Brown" were built, and 10-47. This oxide
shade was similar to that used by ACL, CNW, L&N, UP and others
during
the postwar years.

A portion of the M-60 and M-61 50' box cars built in 1951 received
an
even lighter-brighter shade of oxide red, much like the color
Western
Maryland used during the 1950s, while the balance received the same
oxide shade as the M-58A cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Jim Mischke
 

For B&O Freight Car Brown, try Tamiya XF-64 red brown. This paint matches the freshly painted B&O M-15j in the Jack Delano 1943 slide at the Library of Congress, paint dries a shade lighter. This is the current wisdom.

This paint can be found at military model hobby shops.

--- In STMFC@..., "jim_mischke" <jmischke@...> wrote:



Let me reclarify:

Scalecoat Oxide Red and Floquil Zinc Chromate Primer are good for B&O bright oxide red, painted on B&O boxcars 1945 to about 1964

Your question was about B&O freight car brown, painted on B&O boxcars before 1945 and a little bit afterwards. I am looking at a Tamika military model red brown paint for that. I do not have the product number close at hand. This is fresh off the griddle research subject to peer review, not established wisdom.







--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@> wrote:

Gentlemen, It took awhile but the topic finally came down to my level.
Scalecoat Oxide Red and Floquil Zinc Chromate Primer. Got it. I have one
more Sunshine B&O wagontop to do. This will help.
Thanks
Regards,
Fenton

On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 3:39 PM, jim_mischke <jmischke@> wrote:





Prior to 1945, B&O used a hand mixed paint with a ferrous oxide pigment on
its boxcars and cabooses, calling the recipe "Freight Car Brown".

Ferrous oxide is basically aged rust, a brown hue with a reddish overtone.

A genuine B&O paint chip for this color has not emerged, and color photos
of this paint in decent shape are rare. There is a newly painted wood M-15j
in a Jack Delano Kodachrome image at Galewood in Chicago at the Library of
Congress web site. I work from that.

This brown paint weathers quickly (rust paint on a rust prone steel boxcar)
into a myriad of effects. Sometimes it feels quixotic to search for the
original color when it doesn't last. Still, it would be good to start with
some documented B&O practice, however elusive.

I am looking at Tamika military model paints for inspiration, their
red-brown in particular, but will withhold judgement for the time being,
consider it research in progress.

In 1945, B&O began to specify bright red oxide commercial paints for new
cars and repairs. Ed Hawkin's ACF paint chip collection for B&O boxcar
orders shows that this transition was not uniform nor timely. Photo evidence
suggests some B&O car shops kept using freight car brown for years to paint
repaired cars.

The best paint for this B&O bright red oxide is Scalecoat Oxide Red #2002.
I will also use Floquil Zinc Chromate primer for variety.

--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@> wrote:

Gentlemen, any idea of which model paints, if any out of the bottle best
match this " Alkali Resisting Brown" ?

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@> wrote:




On Jan 28, 2011, at 10:07 PM, rwitt_2000 wrote:

I believe the post-WWII "13 States" cars should be painted oxide red
not
the earlier dark brown. Maybe Ed Hawkins can find the bill of
materials
to verify the paint specifications for the 500 class M-58a built by
AC&F
in 1947 for the B&O.
Bob,
You are correct. According to the paint sample for the M-58A 50' box
cars built by AC&F in 10-47, the cars received Pittsburgh Synthetic
paint (an oxide shade). So the switch from brown to oxide red
occurred sometime between 12-41, when the M-55A/B box cars that
received "Alkali Resisting Brown" were built, and 10-47. This oxide
shade was similar to that used by ACL, CNW, L&N, UP and others during
the postwar years.

A portion of the M-60 and M-61 50' box cars built in 1951 received an
even lighter-brighter shade of oxide red, much like the color Western
Maryland used during the 1950s, while the balance received the same
oxide shade as the M-58A cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


O Fenton Wells
 

Sounds good, I'll give it a try.
Thanks Fenton

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 6:53 PM, jim_mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:





For B&O Freight Car Brown, try Tamiya XF-64 red brown. This paint matches
the freshly painted B&O M-15j in the Jack Delano 1943 slide at the Library
of Congress, paint dries a shade lighter. This is the current wisdom.

This paint can be found at military model hobby shops.


--- In STMFC@..., "jim_mischke" <jmischke@...> wrote:



Let me reclarify:

Scalecoat Oxide Red and Floquil Zinc Chromate Primer are good for B&O
bright oxide red, painted on B&O boxcars 1945 to about 1964

Your question was about B&O freight car brown, painted on B&O boxcars
before 1945 and a little bit afterwards. I am looking at a Tamika military
model red brown paint for that. I do not have the product number close at
hand. This is fresh off the griddle research subject to peer review, not
established wisdom.







--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@> wrote:

Gentlemen, It took awhile but the topic finally came down to my level.
Scalecoat Oxide Red and Floquil Zinc Chromate Primer. Got it. I have
one
more Sunshine B&O wagontop to do. This will help.
Thanks
Regards,
Fenton

On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 3:39 PM, jim_mischke <jmischke@> wrote:





Prior to 1945, B&O used a hand mixed paint with a ferrous oxide
pigment on
its boxcars and cabooses, calling the recipe "Freight Car Brown".

Ferrous oxide is basically aged rust, a brown hue with a reddish
overtone.

A genuine B&O paint chip for this color has not emerged, and color
photos
of this paint in decent shape are rare. There is a newly painted wood
M-15j
in a Jack Delano Kodachrome image at Galewood in Chicago at the
Library of
Congress web site. I work from that.

This brown paint weathers quickly (rust paint on a rust prone steel
boxcar)
into a myriad of effects. Sometimes it feels quixotic to search for
the
original color when it doesn't last. Still, it would be good to start
with
some documented B&O practice, however elusive.

I am looking at Tamika military model paints for inspiration, their
red-brown in particular, but will withhold judgement for the time
being,
consider it research in progress.

In 1945, B&O began to specify bright red oxide commercial paints for
new
cars and repairs. Ed Hawkin's ACF paint chip collection for B&O
boxcar
orders shows that this transition was not uniform nor timely. Photo
evidence
suggests some B&O car shops kept using freight car brown for years to
paint
repaired cars.

The best paint for this B&O bright red oxide is Scalecoat Oxide Red
#2002.
I will also use Floquil Zinc Chromate primer for variety.

--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@> wrote:

Gentlemen, any idea of which model paints, if any out of the bottle
best
match this " Alkali Resisting Brown" ?

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@> wrote:




On Jan 28, 2011, at 10:07 PM, rwitt_2000 wrote:

I believe the post-WWII "13 States" cars should be painted
oxide red
not
the earlier dark brown. Maybe Ed Hawkins can find the bill of
materials
to verify the paint specifications for the 500 class M-58a
built by
AC&F
in 1947 for the B&O.
Bob,
You are correct. According to the paint sample for the M-58A 50'
box
cars built by AC&F in 10-47, the cars received Pittsburgh
Synthetic
paint (an oxide shade). So the switch from brown to oxide red
occurred sometime between 12-41, when the M-55A/B box cars that
received "Alkali Resisting Brown" were built, and 10-47. This
oxide
shade was similar to that used by ACL, CNW, L&N, UP and others
during
the postwar years.

A portion of the M-60 and M-61 50' box cars built in 1951
received an
even lighter-brighter shade of oxide red, much like the color
Western
Maryland used during the 1950s, while the balance received the
same
oxide shade as the M-58A cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@






--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@






--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]