Hello All,

In researching Kadee's CG PS-1 #7115 (CG 7000-7299 blt 4/52) I ran across some conflicting information...

First, the model (Kadee #5111) was produced with a silver roof and running board to represent an un-painted galvanized finish.
see: http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/40ps1b.htm

The Central of Georgia Railway Historical Society web site says this car should have an oxide red roof.
see: http://tinyurl.com/5uvk9ar

Railway Prototype Cyclopedia #4, p 28 says the roof should be black - black car cement.

Can anyone clarify for me what color the roof (and running board) should be for this car when it was new.

-John Hile

John

A 1960's Jim Sands photo of CG 7071 clearly shows the car had black
ends. The roof is very peeled, but there are remnants of what could
have been black car cement. The running board in the photo is so
bright and unpainted galvanized metal that it might actually be
a replacement. I know, real helpful huh? :-)

I think CG had 9 orders of 40' PS-1's from 1952 to 1957, so maybe
some of the paint specifications got mixed up? :-) I've seen no
builder photos from 7000-7299.

Tim O'Connor

On Feb 21, 2011, at 7:03 PM, john66h wrote:

Hello All,

In researching Kadee's CG PS-1 #7115 (CG 7000-7299 blt 4/52) I ran
across some conflicting information...

First, the model (Kadee #5111) was produced with a silver roof and
running board to represent an un-painted galvanized finish.
see: http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/40ps1b.htm

The Central of Georgia Railway Historical Society web site says this
car should have an oxide red roof.
see: http://tinyurl.com/5uvk9ar

Railway Prototype Cyclopedia #4, p 28 says the roof should be black -
black car cement.

Can anyone clarify for me what color the roof (and running board)
should be for this car when it was new.

John,
In 1998 I spent some time researching various Pullman-Standard
correspondence files located at the Illinois Railway Museum. According
to the paint specifications that were in the file for lot number 8030,
CG 7000-7299, the sides were painted Glidden Metallic Brown. The ends,
roofs, & underframes received a coat of black car cement, and the
trucks received a light-bodied coat of black paint. This was
Pullman-Standard's "standard" method at the time to paint a PS-1 box
car. Railroads were allowed to deviate from the "standard" that
Pullman-Standard quoted in their PS-1 specification, but it cost more
money to do so. Some railroads deviated anyway.

The correspondence file indicated both white and aluminum stencil paste
was used for lettering the cars. Presumably the white was for the sides
and aluminum was used over black car cement. The aluminum pigment
applied to black car cement was for the purpose of longevity, as it was
thought that white stencil paste wouldn't last as long. This document
was the basis for the paint specs as they were stated in RP CYC Volume
4.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

There is also the question of "overspray".Some cars did not receive the full treatment.The "overspray" may have appeared to be a fully painted roof to the casual observer.Overhead shots show a wide variation of coverage.Armand Premo

On Feb 22, 2011, at 10:19 AM, A. Premo wrote:

There is also the question of "overspray".Some cars did not receive
the full treatment.The "overspray" may have appeared to be a fully
painted roof to the casual observer.Overhead shots show a wide
variation of coverage.Armand Premo

Armand,
You make an excellent point. Normally new cars receiving black car
cement on the ends and/or roofs had this coating applied first,
followed by the painting of the rest of the car (i.e., sides). When
spraying the sides there was typically some overspray along the edge of
the roof. In black & white photos taken from a relatively low angle,
it's difficult to discern if the car received black car cement or a
painted roof because of the variability of the amount of overspray. An
overhead color photo of a new car would provide conclusive information,
but overhead color photos showing new cars from the 1940s and 1950s are
pretty rare. In some cases only the seam caps received black car
cement, and the overspray from the sides makes the roof appear as the
same color as the sides, when in fact the roof panels were the color
unpainted galvanized steel.

Many PS-1s, as well as box cars from other builders, show a clear
vertical line along the edge of the end where it wraps around to meet
the side. With a good exposure and the right amount of contrast, even a
black & white photo provides clear evidence that the ends were black.
In some cases the vertical line is so sharp that it gives the distinct
impression that the builder masked off the corners of the ends before
painting the sides. Other box cars having black ends didn't receive
such attention to detail, and the freight car paint used for the sides
wrapped around the corners of the ends. This can give a false
impression of the end color if viewed from the side. A good example of
this is found on page 76 of the NYC color guide book, where NYC 45390
has black ends but is difficult to distinguish even in a color photo
due to the amount of overspray on the end. If viewing this car from the
side, the "assumption" would be red ends.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:

Armand,
You make an excellent point. Normally new cars receiving black car
cement on the ends and/or roofs had this coating applied first,
followed by the painting of the rest of the car (i.e., sides).

You mean like this?

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a34000/1a34600/1a34633v.jpg

Painting a car at the repair or "rip" tracks at North Proviso(?), C & NW RR., Chicago, Ill.

Delano, Jack, photographer. CREATED/PUBLISHED 1942 Dec.

Note the slobber job of black car cement near the top corner of the side, which is about to get painted over.


Dennis

--- In STMFC@..., "john66h" <john66h@...> wrote:

Hello All,

In researching Kadee's CG PS-1 #7115 (CG 7000-7299 blt 4/52) I ran across some conflicting information...

Can anyone clarify for me what color the roof (and running board) should be for this car when it was new.

Thanks to all who replied,

-John Hile

I have a b&w photo of these cars showing the roofs as the cars were leaving the
PS plant. The roof clearly is painted and it appears to match the car side.
That's the reason we've (the CGRHS) have always siad that the early versions of
the Kadee car were wrong. Todd Horton




________________________________
From: Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, February 22, 2011 12:16:24 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] CG 7115 PS-1

 

On Feb 22, 2011, at 10:19 AM, A. Premo wrote:

There is also the question of "overspray".Some cars did not receive
the full treatment.The "overspray" may have appeared to be a fully
painted roof to the casual observer.Overhead shots show a wide
variation of coverage.Armand Premo

Armand,
You make an excellent point. Normally new cars receiving black car
cement on the ends and/or roofs had this coating applied first,
followed by the painting of the rest of the car (i.e., sides). When
spraying the sides there was typically some overspray along the edge of
the roof. In black & white photos taken from a relatively low angle,
it's difficult to discern if the car received black car cement or a
painted roof because of the variability of the amount of overspray. An
overhead color photo of a new car would provide conclusive information,
but overhead color photos showing new cars from the 1940s and 1950s are
pretty rare. In some cases only the seam caps received black car
cement, and the overspray from the sides makes the roof appear as the
same color as the sides, when in fact the roof panels were the color
unpainted galvanized steel.

Many PS-1s, as well as box cars from other builders, show a clear
vertical line along the edge of the end where it wraps around to meet
the side. With a good exposure and the right amount of contrast, even a
black & white photo provides clear evidence that the ends were black.
In some cases the vertical line is so sharp that it gives the distinct
impression that the builder masked off the corners of the ends before
painting the sides. Other box cars having black ends didn't receive
such attention to detail, and the freight car paint used for the sides
wrapped around the corners of the ends. This can give a false
impression of the end color if viewed from the side. A good example of
this is found on page 76 of the NYC color guide book, where NYC 45390
has black ends but is difficult to distinguish even in a color photo
due to the amount of overspray on the end. If viewing this car from the
side, the "assumption" would be red ends.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Todd

Any chance you could post the photo to the STMFC? I don't think Pullman
Standard would mind.

Tim O'Connor

Tim, I will post that photo when I get back home. The picture was actually taken
by the C of G for their company magazine. It shows a string of these cars
leaving the PS plant in Birmingham.


Ed Hawkins sent me a PS bill of materials many years ago that lists what colors
were applied to cars that the Central bought. I can't say that I always trust
the bill of materials list because photos tend to show something different. I'm
not disputing Ed as I know he's far more knowledgeable on this subject than I am
but I'm curious if there have been other instances where the photo shows
something different than the Pullman documents show

One that comes to mind is a group of S&A 40' boxcars built in 56' if I recall. I
have a couple of shots of these cars in service with the as built paint scheme.
Kadee did them with black ends. My photos don't tend to support that as being
correct. I sent Sam Clark copies of these for reference.


Todd Horton



________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 11:04:44 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: CG 7115 PS-1

 
Todd

Any chance you could post the photo to the STMFC? I don't think Pullman
Standard would mind.

Tim O'Connor

I have a b&w photo of these cars showing the roofs as the cars were leaving the

PS plant. The roof clearly is painted and it appears to match the car side.
That's the reason we've (the CGRHS) have always siad that the early versions of

the Kadee car were wrong. Todd Horton

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John,
In 1998 I spent some time researching various Pullman-Standard
correspondence files located at the Illinois Railway Museum. According
to the paint specifications that were in the file for lot number 8030,
CG 7000-7299, the sides were painted Glidden Metallic Brown.

Ed, I'm curious about the color listed here. The color photos I've looked at
always show these cars as a light red oxide. I would say very similar to red
primer. The brown doesn't sound right in this case. Your thoughts?   Todd Horton



________________________________
From: Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 9:33:30 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] CG 7115 PS-1

 

On Feb 21, 2011, at 7:03 PM, john66h wrote:

Hello All,

In researching Kadee's CG PS-1 #7115 (CG 7000-7299 blt 4/52) I ran
across some conflicting information...

First, the model (Kadee #5111) was produced with a silver roof and
running board to represent an un-painted galvanized finish.
see: http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/40ps1b.htm

The Central of Georgia Railway Historical Society web site says this
car should have an oxide red roof.
see: http://tinyurl.com/5uvk9ar

Railway Prototype Cyclopedia #4, p 28 says the roof should be black -
black car cement.

Can anyone clarify for me what color the roof (and running board)
should be for this car when it was new.

John,
In 1998 I spent some time researching various Pullman-Standard
correspondence files located at the Illinois Railway Museum. According
to the paint specifications that were in the file for lot number 8030,
CG 7000-7299, the sides were painted Glidden Metallic Brown. The ends,
roofs, & underframes received a coat of black car cement, and the
trucks received a light-bodied coat of black paint. This was
Pullman-Standard's "standard" method at the time to paint a PS-1 box
car. Railroads were allowed to deviate from the "standard" that
Pullman-Standard quoted in their PS-1 specification, but it cost more
money to do so. Some railroads deviated anyway.

The correspondence file indicated both white and aluminum stencil paste
was used for lettering the cars. Presumably the white was for the sides
and aluminum was used over black car cement. The aluminum pigment
applied to black car cement was for the purpose of longevity, as it was
thought that white stencil paste wouldn't last as long. This document
was the basis for the paint specs as they were stated in RP CYC Volume
4.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim, The builders photo of this car show the roof walk to be galvanized. I think
that the assumption  was that the whole roof was that color and led to Kadee
doing them as such. I sent Sam Clarke a copy of my photo and they corrected the
later runs of the C of G cars.  Todd Horton




________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 8:36:52 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: CG 7115 PS-1

 
John

A 1960's Jim Sands photo of CG 7071 clearly shows the car had black
ends. The roof is very peeled, but there are remnants of what could
have been black car cement. The running board in the photo is so
bright and unpainted galvanized metal that it might actually be
a replacement. I know, real helpful huh? :-)

I think CG had 9 orders of 40' PS-1's from 1952 to 1957, so maybe
some of the paint specifications got mixed up? :-) I've seen no
builder photos from 7000-7299.

Tim O'Connor

In researching Kadee's CG PS-1 #7115 (CG 7000-7299 blt 4/52) I ran across some
conflicting information...

First, the model (Kadee #5111) was produced with a silver roof and running board
to represent an un-painted galvanized finish.
see: http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/40ps1b.htm

The Central of Georgia Railway Historical Society web site says this car should
have an oxide red roof.
see: http://tinyurl.com/5uvk9ar

Railway Prototype Cyclopedia #4, p 28 says the roof should be black - black car
cement.

Can anyone clarify for me what color the roof (and running board) should be for
this car when it was new.

-John Hile

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In STMFC@..., Todd Horton <toddchorton@...> wrote:

Tim, The builders photo of this car show the roof walk to be galvanized.

Todd,

Thanks for the additional information on the roof walk and also your previous message regarding the roof color. I'm very interested in seeing the photo when you get it posted.

-John Hile

Thanks. Kadee has made mistakes, but they're good about correcting
them, when someone produces a good photo. As everyone here knows, it's
often hard to find roof photos, especially of new cars. Correcting
the color on a roof is easy, thankfully, while correcting the end is
not as easy but it can be done! e.g.

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/models/oconnor/cnw1002main.html

Tim O'Connor

Todd, the terms "brown" "red" "yellow" etc have no scientific basis
(e.g. a designated point along the RGB spectrum scale). They are just
marketing terms, based on common usage. You can't infer anything very
precisely about them. My favorite is "Socony Red" -- presumably a color
chosen by Standard Oil Co of New York, and then used by many railroads
as diverse as the New Haven and the Southern Pacific -- a color we now
call "Daylight Red".

Tim O'Connor

And, if my recollections of the color sermons given to me by my late friend Tom
Christiansen are correct, also called "Toludene Red". Which caused a problem for
the 4449 restorers, because Dupont could not get an exact Imron match for the
now out of use toludene, and had to get "close-enough".
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA





________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 3:48:49 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: CG 7115 PS-1



Todd, the terms "brown" "red" "yellow" etc have no scientific basis
(e.g. a designated point along the RGB spectrum scale). They are just
marketing terms, based on common usage. You can't infer anything very
precisely about them. My favorite is "Socony Red" -- presumably a color
chosen by Standard Oil Co of New York, and then used by many railroads
as diverse as the New Haven and the Southern Pacific -- a color we now
call "Daylight Red".

Tim O'Connor

In 1998 I spent some time researching various Pullman-Standard
correspondence files located at the Illinois Railway Museum. According
to the paint specifications that were in the file for lot number 8030,
CG 7000-7299, the sides were painted Glidden Metallic Brown.

Ed, I'm curious about the color listed here. The color photos I've looked at
always show these cars as a light red oxide. I would say very similar to red
primer. The brown doesn't sound right in this case. Your thoughts? Todd Horton

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 23, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Todd Horton wrote:

In 1998 I spent some time researching various Pullman-Standard
correspondence files located at the Illinois Railway Museum. According
to the paint specifications that were in the file for lot number 8030,
CG 7000-7299, the sides were painted Glidden Metallic Brown.

Ed, I'm curious about the color listed here. The color photos I've
looked at
always show these cars as a light red oxide. I would say very similar
to red
primer. The brown doesn't sound right in this case. Your thoughts?  
Todd Horton

John and Todd,
Keep in mind that the data I compiled was information in a
Pullman-Standard correspondence file, not the bill of materials. I have
yet to locate the hiding place for all of the PS-1 bills of materials,
so the correspondence files are all we have to go by until the BOMs are
unearthed.

Each correspondence file, which starts at lot 8000 as far as I can tell
(ca. 1951), has hundreds of pages. It would take an eternity to sift
through each letter sent back and forth between the builder and
customer. It's pretty incredible to see all the letter writing that
discussed items that we would consider trivial. All of the Pullman
correspondence is thin tissue-paper carbon copies, while the
correspondence from the railroad is typically original letterhead
stationary. Near the top of the stack of paper in chronological
sequence is often a summary sheet, which is what I used since the
information was contained on just a few pages.

What have been elusive are the bills of materials for Pullman-Standard
cars built at Michigan City, most cars built at Butler, and all of the
Bessemer-built cars built after mid-1947. I was able to retrieve the
bills of materials from the Bessemer plant for cars built from 1929 to
mid-1947. This collection also included a number of BOMs for cars built
at Butler during the 1940s to 1947 at the latest. Unfortunately no
PS-1s are included.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John, This photo, at least to me, clears up any confusion about the roof color
of these cars. Even though it's b&w you can tell the roof and sides are the same
color. The black ends and the roof walk really stand out as being different. I
repainted the roofs on both of the early runs of Kadee cars with a red oxide
primer. It was an almost perfect match for the car sides.   Todd Horton




________________________________
From: john66h <john66h@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 6:19:50 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: CG 7115 PS-1

 


--- In STMFC@..., Todd Horton <toddchorton@...> wrote:

Tim, The builders photo of this car show the roof walk to be galvanized.

Todd,

Thanks for the additional information on the roof walk and also your previous
message regarding the roof color. I'm very interested in seeing the photo when
you get it posted.

-John Hile







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]