Proto 50' boxcar roof removal


Mark
 

Any suggestions on removing a roof on a Proto 50' boxcar. Bought resin parts 50' viking roofs for NKP #87000 series.
Had four of the cars 3 RTR and one kit. Plan too roof three and use the other for something else.

Mark Morgan


O Fenton Wells
 

Mark I remove the sides of these cars by using a Dremel tool with a saw
blade and cut close to the line I'm removing. I have done 4 Southern 10 IH
50 ft boxcars this way from 10'-6" IH Life Like cars. Just remember to be
VERY careful as the saw blade dosen't care what it cuts, flesh or plastic
and wear eye protection as well. Just figure out where you want to make
your cut and go to it.
Good Luck and be careful.
Fenton
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 6:51 PM, Mark M <bnonut@...> wrote:



Any suggestions on removing a roof on a Proto 50' boxcar. Bought resin
parts 50' viking roofs for NKP #87000 series.
Had four of the cars 3 RTR and one kit. Plan too roof three and use the
other for something else.

Mark Morgan




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


jerryglow2
 

What if anything do you have beside a replacement roof? I bought one from Stan Rydarowicz but the Nov '86 Mainline Modeler article indicates (and shows a pic) that they had double Creco doors.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "Mark M" <bnonut@...> wrote:

Any suggestions on removing a roof on a Proto 50' boxcar. Bought resin parts 50' viking roofs for NKP #87000 series.
Had four of the cars 3 RTR and one kit. Plan too roof three and use the other for something else.

Mark Morgan


O Fenton Wells
 

Good question Jerry. In my case I used the Life Like roof and replaced the
car sides. You could canibalize just about any roof you want as long as it
fits. I'm sure Life Like and Branchline or even the older Athearn might be
what you need. I'm not sure what prototype roof you are looking for.
Good luck.Fenton

On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 10:34 AM, <jerryglow@...> wrote:



What if anything do you have beside a replacement roof? I bought one from
Stan Rydarowicz but the Nov '86 Mainline Modeler article indicates (and
shows a pic) that they had double Creco doors.

Jerry Glow


--- In STMFC@..., "Mark M" <bnonut@...> wrote:

Any suggestions on removing a roof on a Proto 50' boxcar. Bought resin
parts 50' viking roofs for NKP #87000 series.
Had four of the cars 3 RTR and one kit. Plan too roof three and use the
other for something else.

Mark Morgan



--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


gn999gn
 

Mark,

The exercise that you are entertaining might be better for the 87100
series. Bear in mind that the P2K car is not really suited for either series depending upon the final result that you are after.

87000-87024
10-4 IH, D-4/5 inverted, Creco doors, double rivet-row, end-door.

87026-87099
10-4 IH, D-4/5 inverted, Creco doors, double rivet-row.

87100-871099
10-6 IH, D-5/5, YSD-4/5/5/4 doors, double rivet-row.

The lower end corners do not match the P2K and neither of the
NKP series featured the push-pockets as exists on the P2K cars.
Also, the P2K cars are inteded to be a 10-6 IH design.

Again, it comes down to the accuracy that is acceptable to you.

Ron dePierre

--- In STMFC@..., "Mark M" <bnonut@...> wrote:

Any suggestions on removing a roof on a Proto 50' boxcar. Bought resin parts 50' viking roofs for NKP #87000 series.
Had four of the cars 3 RTR and one kit. Plan too roof three and use the other for something else.

Mark Morgan


jerryglow2
 

The original question and series he's referring to had Viking roofs. Hardly present on a P2K or Athearn hense his question.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Good question Jerry. In my case I used the Life Like roof and replaced the
car sides. You could canibalize just about any roof you want as long as it
fits. I'm sure Life Like and Branchline or even the older Athearn might be
what you need. I'm not sure what prototype roof you are looking for.
Good luck.Fenton

On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 10:34 AM, <jerryglow@...> wrote:



What if anything do you have beside a replacement roof? I bought one from
Stan Rydarowicz but the Nov '86 Mainline Modeler article indicates (and
shows a pic) that they had double Creco doors.

Jerry Glow


--- In STMFC@..., "Mark M" <bnonut@> wrote:

Any suggestions on removing a roof on a Proto 50' boxcar. Bought resin
parts 50' viking roofs for NKP #87000 series.
Had four of the cars 3 RTR and one kit. Plan too roof three and use the
other for something else.

Mark Morgan



--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...




Tim O'Connor
 

Except for the double rivet seams, the P2K cars match the 87100
series. The factory painted cars are in this series. I used one
of Tom Madden's roof castings for mine, it turned out well.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------

87100-871099
10-6 IH, D-5/5, YSD-4/5/5/4 doors, double rivet-row.

The lower end corners do not match the P2K and neither of the
NKP series featured the push-pockets as exists on the P2K cars.
Also, the P2K cars are inteded to be a 10-6 IH design.

Again, it comes down to the accuracy that is acceptable to you.

Ron dePierre


Tim O'Connor
 

He wants to use a Viking replacement roof, although many modelers don't
know, or have forgotten, that all of the early run Proto 2000 box cars
(and all of their end-door box cars) have a bogus roof. Proto made the
stampings of the roof panels far too wide.

Tim O'Connor

Good question Jerry. In my case I used the Life Like roof and replaced the
car sides. You could canibalize just about any roof you want as long as it
fits. I'm sure Life Like and Branchline or even the older Athearn might be
what you need. I'm not sure what prototype roof you are looking for.
Good luck.Fenton


gn999gn
 

Mark,

My apology... a correction (typo) against my previous posting.
NKP 87100-871099
10-4 IH, D-5/5, YSD-4/5/5/4 doors, double rivet-row.
should be 10-4 IH. NOT 10-6 IH as I had typed. Ooops! :-)

Ron dePierre

--- In STMFC@..., "carbonblack1" <radepierre@...> wrote:

Mark,

The exercise that you are entertaining might be better for the 87100
series. Bear in mind that the P2K car is not really suited for either series depending upon the final result that you are after.

NKP 87000-87024 autocar
10-4 IH, D-4/5 inverted, Creco doors, double rivet-row, end-door.

NKP 87026-87099 autocar
10-4 IH, D-4/5 inverted, Creco doors, double rivet-row.

NKP 87100-87199 autocar
10-6 IH, D-5/5, YSD-4/5/5/4 doors, double rivet-row.

The lower end corners do not match the P2K and neither of the
NKP series featured the push-pockets as exists on the P2K cars.
Also, the P2K cars are inteded to be a 10-6 IH design.

Again, it comes down to the accuracy that is acceptable to you.

Ron dePierre


Paul Lyons
 

Tim said,


Proto made the stampings of the roof panels far too wide.

Tim, Does this mean there are to few panels in the overall lenght of the roof?

Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 1:01 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Proto 50' boxcar roof removal





He wants to use a Viking replacement roof, although many modelers don't
know, or have forgotten, that all of the early run Proto 2000 box cars
(and all of their end-door box cars) have a bogus roof. Proto made the
stampings of the roof panels far too wide.

Tim O'Connor

Good question Jerry. In my case I used the Life Like roof and replaced the
car sides. You could canibalize just about any roof you want as long as it
fits. I'm sure Life Like and Branchline or even the older Athearn might be
what you need. I'm not sure what prototype roof you are looking for.
Good luck.Fenton






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


O Fenton Wells
 

If you want to make a 10 IH car out of a P2K just make a cut throught the
top rib, at least with the SR cars that gave me the 4/5 end I needed. I'm
attaching a picture of the A end of the SR 10 IH and the sides of the 50
footer I did. I built new sides using Archer rivets at the seams.
I am dong a clinic on these at the Savannah RPM Meeting in March.
Let me know if I can help.
Regards, Fenton
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>wrote:




Except for the double rivet seams, the P2K cars match the 87100
series. The factory painted cars are in this series. I used one
of Tom Madden's roof castings for mine, it turned out well.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------
87100-871099
10-6 IH, D-5/5, YSD-4/5/5/4 doors, double rivet-row.

The lower end corners do not match the P2K and neither of the
NKP series featured the push-pockets as exists on the P2K cars.
Also, the P2K cars are inteded to be a 10-6 IH design.

Again, it comes down to the accuracy that is acceptable to you.

Ron dePierre



--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Clark Propst
 

10 replies and not a one suggested how Mark could get the roof off : ))

I'd try running a blade along the sides, then try prying?
RTR sucks!
Clark Propst


Michael Aufderheide
 

These cars (unlike Branchline) have the roof cast with the sides, not as a separate piece.  I have altered similarly made accurail cars by cutting repeatedly along the roof with an exacto knife even with the inside of the sides.  If you own a dremel using it would be much easier.  The stub of the roof edge can be taken off with a file/sanded upside down on sandpaper glued to a sheet of glass or other flat surface.
 
Regards,
 
Mike Aufderheide

--- On Tue, 3/1/11, cepropst@q.com <cepropst@q.com> wrote:


From: cepropst@q.com <cepropst@q.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Proto 50' boxcar roof removal
To: STMFC@...
Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:36 PM


 



10 replies and not a one suggested how Mark could get the roof off : ))

I'd try running a blade along the sides, then try prying?
RTR sucks!
Clark Propst











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., cobrapsl@... wrote:

Tim said,


Proto made the stampings of the roof panels far too wide.

Tim, Does this mean there are to few panels in the overall length of the roof?

Paul Lyons
Yup. It appears they did the same thing Athearn did decades ago. The S.R.E.Co. roof products used the same size panel for both 40'and 50' foot cars, 3'5" wide; twelve on the 40' and fifteen on the 50', IIRC. The slight difference in overall length was made up in the end panels. For some reason Athearn and P2K both put 14 panels on the 50' car. There is no prototype for this roof.


mopacfirst
 

I found something interesting. I have a couple of historic Athearn cars which will soon be built again using Branchline...or something...and a P2K that is on the temporary workbench now. Yes, the Athearn cars have 14 roof panels. No, the P2K car has 15 panels which are no more than an inch or two longer than the panels on a Branchline roof.

It's easy to tell whether there is an even or odd number of panels by looking at the door. If there is a carline centered on the door, there's an even number of panels. If there is a panel centered on the door, there's an odd number.

BTW, both the Athearns and the P2Ks are double door cars. The Athearns are 1970 vintage and the P2K is a fairly old model, maybe mid-90s right after they first appeared.

Does this change anything?

Ron Merrick

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., cobrapsl@ wrote:

Tim said,


Proto made the stampings of the roof panels far too wide.

Tim, Does this mean there are to few panels in the overall length of the roof?

Paul Lyons
Yup. It appears they did the same thing Athearn did decades ago. The S.R.E.Co. roof products used the same size panel for both 40'and 50' foot cars, 3'5" wide; twelve on the 40' and fifteen on the 50', IIRC. The slight difference in overall length was made up in the end panels. For some reason Athearn and P2K both put 14 panels on the 50' car. There is no prototype for this roof.


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 1, 2011, at 3:00 PM, soolinehistory wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., cobrapsl@... wrote:

Tim said,

Proto made the stampings of the roof panels far too wide.

Tim, Does this mean there are to few panels in the overall length
of the roof?

Paul Lyons
Yup. It appears they did the same thing Athearn did decades ago.
The S.R.E.Co. roof products used the same size panel for both
40'and 50' foot cars, 3'5" wide; twelve on the 40' and fifteen on
the 50', IIRC. The slight difference in overall length was made up
in the end panels. For some reason Athearn and P2K both put 14
panels on the 50' car. There is no prototype for this roof.
I seldom find myself disagreeing with Dennis, but in this case he is
adding further confusion on a topic on a topic where there has
already been considerable unnecessary confusion - and that when all
you have to do is take a quick look at the actual prototypes vs. models.

Athearn's old "blue box" 50 AAR steel box car model in plastic (and
subsequent iterations of the original tooling) was a rehash of
Athearn's pressed steel HO scale 50' auto car. The steel model was
based on the Santa Fe Fe-24 class built by Pullman-Standard in
1941-'42. (BTW, the AAR Standard drawings and dimensions for 50'
single and double door steel box cars weren't issued until 1942, so
there was no standard design reference that applied to cars designed
and built before then, though there was a "de facto" standard
followed by most railroads and car builders and based on the 1937 and
1941 40' AAR box car standards). Somehow, in translating the tooling
from stamped metal to styrene, Athearn screwed up the roof, which was
correct on the steel model, so that it's dimensions were stretched
and there were. on the plastic model, one two few seam caps and one
too few rectangular panels between them. An obvious mistake, and
one that could only be fixed by replacing the entire roof, but those
were the days of vintage Uncle Irv, whose stock response to
complaints of inaccacuracy was "screw it, most model railroaders will
never know the difference."

Life-Like did NOT make the same mistake on its P2K models, which have
the correct number of seam caps and panels. What did happen, as Tim
seems relentless about reminding us, is that they misinterpreted the
prototype drawings so that the rectangular panels between the seam
caps were made a bit too wide and lacked a prototypical taper.
Whether one chooses to live with it or replace the entire roof to get
one with more shapely rectangular panels is a judgment call, but the
P2K roof is not incorrect in the same sense as the Athearn roof, for
which there was never a remotely correct prototype.

Richard Hendrickson


O Fenton Wells
 

The roof panels on the 50 foot P2K double door and single door boxcars are
15 panes as I count them. I use the 50 singel door for the Southern 10IH
car and the double door cars for the 10'-6" IH cars.
One thing you do have to be careful of is that the P2K 50' dd car, w/o end
doors has 6 panels to the right side of the car between the end and the
doors. The P2K car with end doors has 7 panels, which matches what the SRR
had. I found this out only after painting and then starting to decal the
car I noticed the decal for the circular monogram (that is the herald for us
modelers, SR people cringe when you say herald) was in the wrong place and
then I counted and found out ...6, count 'em 6 panels! OOPS...Oh well, that
car made good sacrifice ends for the other 50 ft. cars I was doing. So if
you are doing a 50 footer that had 7 panels between the right end and the
doors, you have 2 options, first buy the end door car and replace the end
door with a door from another car or use the non end door car, sand the
sides smooth and make new rivet lines with Archer rivets.
According to Ron at Des Planes Hobbies the difference in panel numbers
between the 2 cars had something to do with the tooling for the models and
the Chinese. Dosen't make sense to me but if you have a P2K 50 foot double
door with and without end doors count the side panels and you will see what
I mean.
Regards,
Fenton
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Richard Hendrickson <
rhendrickson@...> wrote:



On Mar 1, 2011, at 3:00 PM, soolinehistory wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., cobrapsl@... wrote:

Tim said,

Proto made the stampings of the roof panels far too wide.

Tim, Does this mean there are to few panels in the overall length
of the roof?

Paul Lyons
Yup. It appears they did the same thing Athearn did decades ago.
The S.R.E.Co <http://s.r.e.co/>. roof products used the same size panel
for both
40'and 50' foot cars, 3'5" wide; twelve on the 40' and fifteen on
the 50', IIRC. The slight difference in overall length was made up
in the end panels. For some reason Athearn and P2K both put 14
panels on the 50' car. There is no prototype for this roof.
I seldom find myself disagreeing with Dennis, but in this case he is
adding further confusion on a topic on a topic where there has
already been considerable unnecessary confusion - and that when all
you have to do is take a quick look at the actual prototypes vs. models.

Athearn's old "blue box" 50 AAR steel box car model in plastic (and
subsequent iterations of the original tooling) was a rehash of
Athearn's pressed steel HO scale 50' auto car. The steel model was
based on the Santa Fe Fe-24 class built by Pullman-Standard in
1941-'42. (BTW, the AAR Standard drawings and dimensions for 50'
single and double door steel box cars weren't issued until 1942, so
there was no standard design reference that applied to cars designed
and built before then, though there was a "de facto" standard
followed by most railroads and car builders and based on the 1937 and
1941 40' AAR box car standards). Somehow, in translating the tooling
from stamped metal to styrene, Athearn screwed up the roof, which was
correct on the steel model, so that it's dimensions were stretched
and there were. on the plastic model, one two few seam caps and one
too few rectangular panels between them. An obvious mistake, and
one that could only be fixed by replacing the entire roof, but those
were the days of vintage Uncle Irv, whose stock response to
complaints of inaccacuracy was "screw it, most model railroaders will
never know the difference."

Life-Like did NOT make the same mistake on its P2K models, which have
the correct number of seam caps and panels. What did happen, as Tim
seems relentless about reminding us, is that they misinterpreted the
prototype drawings so that the rectangular panels between the seam
caps were made a bit too wide and lacked a prototypical taper.
Whether one chooses to live with it or replace the entire roof to get
one with more shapely rectangular panels is a judgment call, but the
P2K roof is not incorrect in the same sense as the Athearn roof, for
which there was never a remotely correct prototype.

Richard Hendrickson






--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


Andy Carlson
 

Speaking of the LL P2K 50' boxcar kits. I was inspired from a visit to a
trucking firm near Des Plaines upon recommendation by Ron Sebastion not too may
years ago. There were 2 early 10-6 50' boxcars used for records storage. One was
a GTW auto-end door. I had to have a model of one.

The problems with the P2K roofs were well known, even then. I needed to remove
the roof anyway because the GTW car had diagonal panels in the mid-field, and
rectangular raised panels on the ends. Realizing the complexity of fitting a Red
Caboose roof against the end door, I thought of another way. I removed only the
panels which were to be replaced with diagonal panel sections. This is where I
benefited from LL keeping the spacing consistent with real roofs (as RH notes).
I made the joints in the middle of a seam cap, and the results were worthy of
the rather easy effort.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


________________________________
Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:



Life-Like did NOT make the same mistake on its P2K models, which have
the correct number of seam caps and panels. What did happen, as Tim
seems relentless about reminding us, is that they misinterpreted the
prototype drawings so that the rectangular panels between the seam
caps were made a bit too wide and lacked a prototypical taper.
Whether one chooses to live with it or replace the entire roof to get
one with more shapely rectangular panels is a judgment call, but the
P2K roof is not incorrect in the same sense as the Athearn roof, for
which there was never a remotely correct prototype.


pullmanboss <tcmadden@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Life-Like did NOT make the same mistake on its P2K models, which
have the correct number of seam caps and panels. What did happen,
as Tim seems relentless about reminding us, is that they
misinterpreted the prototype drawings so that the rectangular
panels between the seam caps were made a bit too wide and lacked a
prototypical taper. Whether one chooses to live with it or replace
the entire roof to get one with more shapely rectangular panels is
a judgment call, but the P2K roof is not incorrect in the same
sense as the Athearn roof, for which there was never a remotely
correct prototype.
Tim mentioned earlier in this thread that he'd used one of my roof castings to re-roof an early P2K boxcar. (That was a loooooong time ago.) Here's a scan of two such cars, the one on the right having the original roof, and the one on the left a cast replacement: http://www.pullmanproject.com/P2KRoofs.jpg

I'm confused regarding panel count. Does the resin roof have one too many? I understand Life-Like upgraded the roof in later runs, but I'm not much of a freight car guy these days and haven't kept up.

(The replacement roof was made from two IMWX roofs per a technique developed by Terry Wegmann. The one in the photo was from my first try. My second pattern, with milled edges, has an invisible join. I still have that pattern.)

Tom Madden


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tom Madden wrote:
Tim mentioned earlier in this thread that he'd used one of my roof castings to re-roof an early P2K boxcar. (That was a loooooong time ago.) Here's a scan of two such cars, the one on the right having the original roof, and the one on the left a cast replacement: http://www.pullmanproject.com/P2KRoofs.jpg

I'm confused regarding panel count. Does the resin roof have one too many? I understand Life-Like upgraded the roof in later runs, but I'm not much of a freight car guy these days and haven't kept up.
The two roofs in your photo have the same number of panels, 15, which AFAIK is the right number.


Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history