Foreign Road Stock Cars


devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

SNIP


PRR Stock shipments did NOT (in general) originate from the range.
Rather, these shipments originated from larger feedlots. The stock
were no longer owned by the farmer, but by the feedlot. Thus, they
were NOT accompanied by drovers and there was no need for the
originating road stock car to continue with the stock, since the
stock would have spent days to weeks in the stockyard.

Given that the PRR had in excess of 2,000 of its own stock cars, the
majority of stock movement during WWII on PRR rails would have been
in K7A and K8 stock cars. Obviously, you should have picked up a
number of the BLI K7A and as for the K8, all I can say is cross your
fingers <VBG> (although a stand in can be had from the TM stock
car). Additional stock cars from connecting roads, especially at the
major stock cities of Chicago, Cincinnati and Saint Louis, were
relatively common. Among those that can be seen in photos on the PRR
were Milwaukee, ATSF, UP, Mopac and Frisco. These cars were likely
"available" and used as needed to fill out PRR stock trains. Stock
cars from non-connecting roads would have been less likely, but
possible (eg SP). Given the issues of WWII, a few oddballs (eg
Rutland) might also be seen.

SNIP

Regards
Bruce
All,

I found an interesting (to WWII modelers) car service order reference in "American Wartime Transportation" by Rose:

"Another noteworthy step taken by the commission [ICC], was the provision in Service Order No 71, issued March 6, 1942, that when any station or terminal was served by more than one railroad, all livestock cars were to be pooled. Pursuant to this, pools of livestock cars were established at St. Joseph, Kansas City, and St. Louis, Missouri; Wichita and Atchison, Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska; Sioux City, Iowa; Pine Bluff and Texarkana, Arkansas; Pueblo and Denver, Colorado; Fort Worth and Houston, Texs; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; and Ogden and Salt Lake City; Utah."

Wonder how far east this might be evident...

Dave Evans


Bruce Smith
 

"Dave Evans" <devans1@...> 03/29/11 10:58 PM >>>
"Another noteworthy step taken by the commission [ICC], was the
provision in Service Order No 71, issued March 6, 1942, >that when any
station or terminal was served by more than one railroad, all livestock
cars were to be pooled. Pursuant to >this, pools of livestock cars were
established at St. Joseph, Kansas City, and St. Louis, Missouri; Wichita
and Atchison, >Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska; Sioux City, Iowa; Pine Bluff and
Texarkana, Arkansas; Pueblo and Denver, Colorado; Fort Worth >and
Houston, Texs; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; and Ogden and Salt Lake City;
Utah."

Interesting! and Chicago is noticeably absent from the list...

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


tyesac@...
 

Probably because the trip to Chicago was definitely the "end destination" for livestock bound for Chicago. I would be surprised if many stock cars would be reloaded with live animals for transshipment anywhere else after they arrived at the Chicago stockyards. I'd expect that the stock cars leaving Chicago were 99.9% empty, whether they were returned to the owning RR or not.

Tom Casey


"Dave Evans" <devans1@...> 03/29/11 10:58 PM >>>
"Another noteworthy step taken by the commission [ICC], was the
provision in Service Order No 71, issued March 6, 1942, >that when any
station or terminal was served by more than one railroad, all livestock
cars were to be pooled. Pursuant to >this, pools of livestock cars were
established at St. Joseph, Kansas City, and St. Louis, Missouri; Wichita
and Atchison, >Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska; Sioux City, Iowa; Pine Bluff and
Texarkana, Arkansas; Pueblo and Denver, Colorado; Fort Worth >and
Houston, Texs; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; and Ogden and Salt Lake City;
Utah."

Interesting! and Chicago is noticeably absent from the list...

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL








-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wed, Mar 30, 2011 7:10 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Foreign Road Stock Cars




"Dave Evans" <devans1@...> 03/29/11 10:58 PM >>>
"Another noteworthy step taken by the commission [ICC], was the
provision in Service Order No 71, issued March 6, 1942, >that when any
station or terminal was served by more than one railroad, all livestock
cars were to be pooled. Pursuant to >this, pools of livestock cars were
established at St. Joseph, Kansas City, and St. Louis, Missouri; Wichita
and Atchison, >Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska; Sioux City, Iowa; Pine Bluff and
Texarkana, Arkansas; Pueblo and Denver, Colorado; Fort Worth >and
Houston, Texs; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; and Ogden and Salt Lake City;
Utah."

Interesting! and Chicago is noticeably absent from the list...

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

"Dave Evans" <devans1@...> 03/29/11 10:58 PM >>>
"Another noteworthy step taken by the commission [ICC], was the
provision in Service Order No 71, issued March 6, 1942, >that when any
station or terminal was served by more than one railroad, all livestock
cars were to be pooled. Pursuant to >this, pools of livestock cars were
established at St. Joseph, Kansas City, and St. Louis, Missouri; Wichita
and Atchison, >Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska; Sioux City, Iowa; Pine Bluff and
Texarkana, Arkansas; Pueblo and Denver, Colorado; Fort Worth >and
Houston, Texs; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; and Ogden and Salt Lake City;
Utah."

Interesting! and Chicago is noticeably absent from the list...

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
Bruce,

I was surprised too - read through the paragraph about 3 times to make sure Chicago wasn't in there. I know PRR FW-8 originated in Chicago, but I need to find the keystone articles that described it and confirm the cars "originating" there were from interchange, not from the stock yards.

Dave Evans


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Friends,

I'm equally surprised that nobody talks about stock movements in California. The Los Angeles Union Stockyards may not have been as big as the great mid-western operations, but it must have been significant given the size of the market there. The yards were located near the intersection of Bandini Blvd. and South Downey, which I think is actually in the City of Vernon (or just east of Vernon), with the Los Angeles River forming the northern boundary. In fact, this was very close to the Farmer John's hog plant, which was the destination of the last major and regular livestock movement in the U.S. over the U.P.

Kind regards,


Garth Groff

On 3/30/2011 1:47 PM, Dave Evans wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith"<smithbf@...> wrote:
"Dave Evans"<devans1@...> 03/29/11 10:58 PM>>>
"Another noteworthy step taken by the commission [ICC], was the
provision in Service Order No 71, issued March 6, 1942,>that when any
station or terminal was served by more than one railroad, all livestock
cars were to be pooled. Pursuant to>this, pools of livestock cars were
established at St. Joseph, Kansas City, and St. Louis, Missouri; Wichita
and Atchison,>Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska; Sioux City, Iowa; Pine Bluff and
Texarkana, Arkansas; Pueblo and Denver, Colorado; Fort Worth>and
Houston, Texs; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; and Ogden and Salt Lake City;
Utah."

Interesting! and Chicago is noticeably absent from the list...

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
Bruce,

I was surprised too - read through the paragraph about 3 times to make sure Chicago wasn't in there. I know PRR FW-8 originated in Chicago, but I need to find the keystone articles that described it and confirm the cars "originating" there were from interchange, not from the stock yards.

Dave Evans


charles slater
 

And was served by the Los Angelas Junction Ry until the stockyard closed.
Charlie Slater



To: STMFC@...
From: ggg9y@...
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 14:10:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars






Friends,

I'm equally surprised that nobody talks about stock movements in
California. The Los Angeles Union Stockyards may not have been as big as
the great mid-western operations, but it must have been significant
given the size of the market there. The yards were located near the
intersection of Bandini Blvd. and South Downey, which I think is
actually in the City of Vernon (or just east of Vernon), with the Los
Angeles River forming the northern boundary. In fact, this was very
close to the Farmer John's hog plant, which was the destination of the
last major and regular livestock movement in the U.S. over the U.P.

Kind regards,

Garth Groff

On 3/30/2011 1:47 PM, Dave Evans wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith"<smithbf@...> wrote:
"Dave Evans"<devans1@...> 03/29/11 10:58 PM>>>
"Another noteworthy step taken by the commission [ICC], was the
provision in Service Order No 71, issued March 6, 1942,>that when any
station or terminal was served by more than one railroad, all livestock
cars were to be pooled. Pursuant to>this, pools of livestock cars were
established at St. Joseph, Kansas City, and St. Louis, Missouri; Wichita
and Atchison,>Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska; Sioux City, Iowa; Pine Bluff and
Texarkana, Arkansas; Pueblo and Denver, Colorado; Fort Worth>and
Houston, Texs; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; and Ogden and Salt Lake City;
Utah."

Interesting! and Chicago is noticeably absent from the list...

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
Bruce,

I was surprised too - read through the paragraph about 3 times to make sure Chicago wasn't in there. I know PRR FW-8 originated in Chicago, but I need to find the keystone articles that described it and confirm the cars "originating" there were from interchange, not from the stock yards.

Dave Evans


Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

GUYZ,
 
The ommision of Chicago may well be the fact that it was the biggest in the east. The others were established to complement the way it was done in Chicago.
As mentioned, the NW-8 did haul livestock. There were hog washers on the Panhandle Divn east of Scio tower; and there were holding pens in Mongo Jct yard for cattle prior to 1953. Remember, this is the route to Pittsburg PA, NJ, and NYC; all of whom received cattle on the hoof. I do believe the cattle were sold in Chicago, then the buyer had them shipped to his slaughter house further east.In this instance, using what cars were available per the pool set up. Otherwise, all we would have seen east of Chicago would be meat reefers of dressed meat.
 
Fred Freitas
From: "tyesac@..." <tyesac@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Foreign Road Stock Cars


 

Probably because the trip to Chicago was definitely the "end destination" for livestock bound for Chicago. I would be surprised if many stock cars would be reloaded with live animals for transshipment anywhere else after they arrived at the Chicago stockyards. I'd expect that the stock cars leaving Chicago were 99.9% empty, whether they were returned to the owning RR or not.

Tom Casey

"Dave Evans" <devans1@...> 03/29/11 10:58 PM >>>
"Another noteworthy step taken by the commission [ICC], was the
provision in Service Order No 71, issued March 6, 1942, >that when any
station or terminal was served by more than one railroad, all livestock
cars were to be pooled. Pursuant to >this, pools of livestock cars were
established at St. Joseph, Kansas City, and St. Louis, Missouri; Wichita
and Atchison, >Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska; Sioux City, Iowa; Pine Bluff and
Texarkana, Arkansas; Pueblo and Denver, Colorado; Fort Worth >and
Houston, Texs; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; and Ogden and Salt Lake City;
Utah."

Interesting! and Chicago is noticeably absent from the list...

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wed, Mar 30, 2011 7:10 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Foreign Road Stock Cars

"Dave Evans" <devans1@...> 03/29/11 10:58 PM >>>
"Another noteworthy step taken by the commission [ICC], was the
provision in Service Order No 71, issued March 6, 1942, >that when any
station or terminal was served by more than one railroad, all livestock
cars were to be pooled. Pursuant to >this, pools of livestock cars were
established at St. Joseph, Kansas City, and St. Louis, Missouri; Wichita
and Atchison, >Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska; Sioux City, Iowa; Pine Bluff and
Texarkana, Arkansas; Pueblo and Denver, Colorado; Fort Worth >and
Houston, Texs; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; and Ogden and Salt Lake City;
Utah."

Interesting! and Chicago is noticeably absent from the list...

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Bruce Smith
 

Bruce,

I was surprised too - read through the paragraph about 3 times to
make sure Chicago wasn't in there. I know PRR FW-8 originated in
Chicago, but I need to find the keystone articles that described it
and confirm the cars "originating" there were from interchange, not
from the stock yards.

Dave Evans
Dave,

I highly doubt that you will "confirm" anything of the sort. Given
rest times for stock and the marketing of stock, PRR stock trains
were almost certainly loaded at Chicago stock yards. Now, it is
important to realize that "stock yard" is about as descriptive as
"steam era freight car", as there were many types of holding
facilities. <Speculation> It may be that Chicago's absence from the
directive could have been due to pooling already being ongoing or
that access to the appropriate yards was via a single railroad or
belt railway.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Randy Williamson
 

Bruce,

On my website: http://www.prrfreight.com/FW-8.htm it does show
livestock being received from Union Stock Yard.

Randy Williamson
www.prrfreight.com

Quoting Bruce Smith :

> Bruce,

I was surprised too - read through the paragraph about 3 times to
make sure Chicago wasn't in there. I know PRR FW-8 originated in
Chicago, but I need to find the keystone articles that described it
and confirm the cars "originating" there were from interchange, not
from the stock yards.

Dave Evans
Dave,

I highly doubt that you will "confirm" anything of the sort. Given
rest times for stock and the marketing of stock, PRR stock trains
were almost certainly loaded at Chicago stock yards. Now, it is
important to realize that "stock yard" is about as descriptive as
"steam era freight car", as there were many types of holding
facilities. It may be that Chicago's absence from the
directive could have been due to pooling already being ongoing or
that access to the appropriate yards was via a single railroad or
belt railway.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Allen Rueter
 

Bruce, FYI it seems your web site only works with Internet Exploder.
Tho it does look interesting when I look at the source code.

--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO




________________________________
From: Randy Williamson <pennsy@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, March 30, 2011 2:06:43 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars




Bruce,

On my website: http://www.prrfreight.com/FW-8.htm it does show
livestock being received from Union Stock Yard.

Randy Williamson
www.prrfreight.com

Quoting Bruce Smith :

Bruce,

I was surprised too - read through the paragraph about 3 times to
make sure Chicago wasn't in there. I know PRR FW-8 originated in
Chicago, but I need to find the keystone articles that described it
and confirm the cars "originating" there were from interchange, not
from the stock yards.

Dave Evans
Dave,

I highly doubt that you will "confirm" anything of the sort. Given
rest times for stock and the marketing of stock, PRR stock trains
were almost certainly loaded at Chicago stock yards. Now, it is
important to realize that "stock yard" is about as descriptive as
"steam era freight car", as there were many types of holding
facilities. It may be that Chicago's absence from the
directive could have been due to pooling already being ongoing or
that access to the appropriate yards was via a single railroad or
belt railway.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


SUVCWORR@...
 

Allen,

I just accessed it with Mozilla and Safari

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Rueter <allen_282@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:35 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars


Bruce, FYI it seems your web site only works with Internet Exploder.
Tho it does look interesting when I look at the source code.

--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO




________________________________
From: Randy Williamson <pennsy@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, March 30, 2011 2:06:43 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars




Bruce,

On my website: http://www.prrfreight.com/FW-8.htm it does show
livestock being received from Union Stock Yard.

Randy Williamson
www.prrfreight.com

Quoting Bruce Smith :

Bruce,

I was surprised too - read through the paragraph about 3 times to
make sure Chicago wasn't in there. I know PRR FW-8 originated in
Chicago, but I need to find the keystone articles that described it
and confirm the cars "originating" there were from interchange, not
from the stock yards.

Dave Evans
Dave,

I highly doubt that you will "confirm" anything of the sort. Given
rest times for stock and the marketing of stock, PRR stock trains
were almost certainly loaded at Chicago stock yards. Now, it is
important to realize that "stock yard" is about as descriptive as
"steam era freight car", as there were many types of holding
facilities. It may be that Chicago's absence from the
directive could have been due to pooling already being ongoing or
that access to the appropriate yards was via a single railroad or
belt railway.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0















------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links





=


lstt100
 


"Another noteworthy step taken by the commission [ICC], was the provision in Service Order No 71, issued March 6, 1942, that when any station or terminal was served by more than one railroad, all livestock cars were to be pooled. Pursuant to this, pools of livestock cars were established at St. Joseph, Kansas City, and St. Louis, Missouri; Wichita and Atchison, Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska; Sioux City, Iowa; Pine Bluff and Texarkana, Arkansas; Pueblo and Denver, Colorado; Fort Worth and Houston, Texs; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; and Ogden and Salt Lake City; Utah."
Dave,

Based on interviews with Car Distributors I worked with, these locations had livestock "reloading", both resting, feed lot and resales, besides the associated meat packing. As such, during WWII it was easier, quicker and faster for the serving carriers to utilize each others cars instead of going to the effort to reswitch, clean and prep the cars and respot. Mixing of equipment regardless of destination was commonplace.

I cannot answer if it reached "East" of Chicago.

Dan Holbrook


Douglas Harding
 

We must not forget that a lot of livestock was finished, ie fattened for
market, in the Midwest. Market ready livestock was loaded at stockpens in
areas that by-passed Chicago and had connections to eastern roads. Peoria
comes to mind, as does the St Louis gateway. And most western and
mid-western roads with access to Chicago also had feed and rest stations in
the rural areas just to the west of Chicago. Animals at these stations could
be loaded, transferred to the IHB connections and routed to eastern
connections with the same speed of meat reefers. Thus transferring western
raised animals to eastern slaughter houses, eastern being anything east of
Chicago.



In regards to the issue of pooling stockcars at various major stockyards,
note all the locations named are west of Chicago and were through towns for
most railroads that served them. Chicago on the other had was not a through
town for most railroads that served Chicago. It was a terminus. As shown
above livestock could and did go through Chicago, being loaded at nearby
locations or at the feed rest stations.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dan Holbrook wrote:
Based on interviews with Car Distributors I worked with, these locations had livestock "reloading", both resting, feed lot and resales, besides the associated meat packing. As such, during WWII it was easier, quicker and faster for the serving carriers to utilize each others cars instead of going to the effort to reswitch, clean and prep the cars and respot. Mixing of equipment regardless of destination was commonplace.
I don't understand these statements. The minimum resting time was 5 hours, and animals could not be reloaded into dirty cars or with old bedding. If I understand the rules correctly, there was no alternative to cleaned and rebedded cars. I am not aware that the livestock rules were waived during World War II. But if someone has contrary info, I'd like to hear it.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Steve Haas
 

Dan Holbrook wrote:

"Based on interviews with Car Distributors I worked with, these
locations had livestock "reloading", both resting, feed lot and
resales, besides the associated meat packing. As such, during WWII it
was easier, quicker and faster for the serving carriers to utilize
each others cars instead of going to the effort to reswitch, clean and
prep the cars and respot. Mixing of equipment regardless of
destination was commonplace."

And Tony Thompson responded:

"I don't understand these statements. The minimum resting time was 5 hours,
and animals could not be reloaded into dirty cars or with old bedding. If I
understand the rules correctly, there was no alternative to cleaned and
rebedded cars. I am not aware that the livestock rules were waived during
World War II. But if someone has contrary info, I'd like to hear it."

Tony,

I don't think that is what Dan is trying to say. I think Dan was trying to
say that instead of sorting all the cars by carrier, then going through the
cleaning and prep process, that the cars were used as a pool, and cleaned,
prepped and spotted regardless of owner.

Best regards,

Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA


devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


Dave,

I highly doubt that you will "confirm" anything of the sort. Given
rest times for stock and the marketing of stock, PRR stock trains
were almost certainly loaded at Chicago stock yards. Now, it is
important to realize that "stock yard" is about as descriptive as
"steam era freight car", as there were many types of holding
facilities. <Speculation> It may be that Chicago's absence from the
directive could have been due to pooling already being ongoing or
that access to the appropriate yards was via a single railroad or
belt railway.

Regards
Bruce
Bruce,

The Keystone article shows a scheduled transit time of 21:30 from the time stock cars were due to be delivered to the PRR's 55th street yard in Chicago, so cars could interchanged to FW-8 could be loaded 12 hours before they were due at 55th street.

The Keystone article states three sources for FW-8 - cars from Union Stock yard due 55th street at 10 PM (a "transfer run"), cattle from Belt Railway's Chicago Clearing Yard were due at 55th street yard at 10:30 PM, and cars from Indiana Harbor Belt were due in the PRR Colehour Yard by 1:30 AM. Union stock yard was very close to the 55th street yard.

FW-8 departed 55th street at 1:00 AM, and Colehour by 2:15 AM (the yards were 8.9 miles apart.

I would think livestock from Belt railway and IHB were likely stock that did not pass through the Union Stock yard. I could not find info on other Chicago area stock yards that RR's may have had for resting live stock.

Dave Evans


devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Haas" <Goatfisher2@...> wrote:

Tony,

I don't think that is what Dan is trying to say. I think Dan was trying to
say that instead of sorting all the cars by carrier, then going through the
cleaning and prep process, that the cars were used as a pool, and cleaned,
prepped and spotted regardless of owner.

Best regards,

Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA
I thought we established that some of these yards were places where the ranchers would sell their stock to distributors, and they might even remain in the these yards for a while to fatten up on grain.

In this mode, the cars that delivered the stock were now MTY's ready for the next assignment - which might be as an empty back towards the range lands, or for loading and shipment of livestock towards the east that might now be under contract to an eastern meat packer.

In this case the car service order would indicate the cars were pooled for these loads locally, but not nationally. And I think that means that an EB ATSF train of newly waybilled loaded stock cars coming out of a pooled location might have some stock cars other than ATSF in it?

Dave Evans


Tim O'Connor
 

I would think livestock from Belt railway and IHB were likely stock that
did not pass through the Union Stock yard. I could not find info on other
Chicago area stock yards that RR's may have had for resting live stock.
Dave Evans

------------------------------

I have a fold-out annotated map of the Chicago area in 1938 from a
Chicago & Alton report that shows all of the active railroad yards in
the area and describes the Alton's (and the B&O's) use of yards and
interactions with other railroads...

Anyway, Alton's Glenn Yard astride the C&A mainline, north of Clearing
Yard and west of the "Stock Yards" is where the Alton staged transfers
to the stock yards. Other yards close by the stock yards are a Wabash
yard (appears to be joint C&WI/WAB trackage), Garfield Blvd Yard (PFW&C),
33rd St Yard (C&WI), 59th St Yard (PCC&StL), Ashland Ave Yard (CJ - this
is a large yard, hard by the stock yards, probably a major staging area
for the stock yards), Leavitt St [sic?] yard (no owner indicated),
Englewood Yard (NYC, just southeast of the stock yards), and 43rd St yard
(Rock Island). The only entries to the stock yards are a wye off the IHB
on the south end, and east-west entry points off the CJ (Chicago Junction?)
on the north end.

Notes say "BARR YARD of the B&OCT was the principal operating yard of the
B&O-B&OCT prior to unification of operations at Glenn Yard, Feb 1933". There
is a direct line of the B&OCT that runs northwest past Clearing Yard and
Argo yard and then connects with the Alton to Glenn Yard. So I guess that
stock could be transferred directly between the Alton and B&O. Also the
IHB Blue Island yard is just below Barr Yard, and nearby to the south is
the IC's huge Markham Yard.

Anyway it looks like Dave is correct that transfers could be made via the
BRC and IHB that bypassed the Union Stock Yards. I've never heard of these
railroads PCC&StL, CJ, PFW&C before -- their proximity to the stock yards
seems to indicate there were more actors here than just the BRC and IHB and
C&WI, when it comes to stock operations.

Tim O'Connor


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dave Evans wrote:
The Keystone article shows a scheduled transit time of 21:30 from the time stock cars were due to be delivered to the PRR's 55th street yard in Chicago, so cars could interchanged to FW-8 could be loaded 12 hours before they were due at 55th street.
You seem to be assuming that shippers all signed a 36-hour waiver. Many insisted on the 28-hour rule, which was in force unless the SHIPPER decided otherwise.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Bruce Smith
 

On Mar 31, 2011, at 12:27 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Anyway it looks like Dave is correct that transfers could be made
via the
BRC and IHB that bypassed the Union Stock Yards. I've never heard
of these
railroads PCC&StL, CJ, PFW&C before --
Tim,

I can help with two

PCC&StL - Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago and St. Louis Railroad

PFW&C - Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago Railway

Both of these were part of PRR Lines West


Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0