Corroded hoppers


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gatwood, Elden wrote:
It would be interesting to know how geographic/regional this issue was, and how it evolved over time. I recall seeing discussion on effects of corrosion early in the twentieth century . . .
Looking through railroad industry journals such as Railway Age in the first ten or 15 years of the 20th century will show numerous articles and letters to the editor about corrosion prevention on steel car bodies, which of course were then just coming into common usage. Paint formulas, surface preparation methods, drying times, and other aspects of the problem were repeatedly discussed. After roughly World War I, this topic disappears from the literature, and I assume a consensus had emerged on how best to paint steel cars. This consensus was NOT on account of copper-bearing steel being introduced to combat corrosion, because that happened about a decade later.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


rwitt_2000
 

Tony Thompson wrote:
Looking through railroad industry journals such as Railway Age
in the first ten or 15 years of the 20th century will show numerous
articles and letters to the editor about corrosion prevention on steel
car bodies, which of course were then just coming into common usage.
Paint formulas, surface preparation methods, drying times, and other
aspects of the problem were repeatedly discussed. After roughly World
War I, this topic disappears from the literature, and I assume a
consensus had emerged on how best to paint steel cars. This consensus
was NOT on account of copper-bearing steel being introduced to combat
corrosion, because that happened about a decade later.
Tony,

Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?

In my reply to the original inquiry I listed the seminal article
published in 1923 by J. J. Tatum Superintendent Car Department of the
B&ORR where the B&O specifies its steel to have not less than 0.20%
copper.

"Reducing the Corrosion in Steel Cars, Steel containing a small
percentage of copper adopted to prevent rapid deterioration, J.J. Tatum,
Superintendent Car Department, Baltimore & Ohio, Railway Mechanical
Engineer, vol. 97, no. 7, July 1923, pp.413-416."

http://www.archive.org/details/railwaymechanica97newyuoft



Bob Witt


Jeff Coleman
 

I don't have the data with me at the moment but the N&W also started using copper bearing steel in the 1920's for gondolas & hoppers in coal service.

Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rwitt_2000" <rwitt_2000@...> wrote:


Tony Thompson wrote:
Looking through railroad industry journals such as Railway Age
in the first ten or 15 years of the 20th century will show numerous
articles and letters to the editor about corrosion prevention on steel
car bodies, which of course were then just coming into common usage.
Paint formulas, surface preparation methods, drying times, and other
aspects of the problem were repeatedly discussed. After roughly World
War I, this topic disappears from the literature, and I assume a
consensus had emerged on how best to paint steel cars. This consensus
was NOT on account of copper-bearing steel being introduced to combat
corrosion, because that happened about a decade later.
Tony,

Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?

In my reply to the original inquiry I listed the seminal article
published in 1923 by J. J. Tatum Superintendent Car Department of the
B&ORR where the B&O specifies its steel to have not less than 0.20%
copper.

"Reducing the Corrosion in Steel Cars, Steel containing a small
percentage of copper adopted to prevent rapid deterioration, J.J. Tatum,
Superintendent Car Department, Baltimore & Ohio, Railway Mechanical
Engineer, vol. 97, no. 7, July 1923, pp.413-416."

http://www.archive.org/details/railwaymechanica97newyuoft



Bob Witt


Thomas Birkett
 

Copper bearing steel is known by trade names Cor-Ten (USS) and Marai
(Bethlehem, named for a place in Africa where the iron ore is naturally
mixed with copper). It was not the answer to corrosion that it was thought
to be, although there are some studies that show it holds paint better than
plain carbon steel

Tom

Subject: [STMFC] Re: Corroded hoppers




I don't have the data with me at the moment but the N&W also started using
copper bearing steel in the 1920's for gondolas & hoppers in coal service.

Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "rwitt_2000"
<rwitt_2000@...> wrote:


Tony Thompson wrote:
Looking through railroad industry journals such as Railway Age
in the first ten or 15 years of the 20th century will show numerous
articles and letters to the editor about corrosion prevention on steel
car bodies, which of course were then just coming into common usage.
Paint formulas, surface preparation methods, drying times, and other
aspects of the problem were repeatedly discussed. After roughly World
War I, this topic disappears from the literature, and I assume a
consensus had emerged on how best to paint steel cars. This consensus
was NOT on account of copper-bearing steel being introduced to combat
corrosion, because that happened about a decade later.
Tony,

Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?

In my reply to the original inquiry I listed the seminal article
published in 1923 by J. J. Tatum Superintendent Car Department of the
B&ORR where the B&O specifies its steel to have not less than 0.20%
copper.

"Reducing the Corrosion in Steel Cars, Steel containing a small
percentage of copper adopted to prevent rapid deterioration, J.J. Tatum,
Superintendent Car Department, Baltimore & Ohio, Railway Mechanical
Engineer, vol. 97, no. 7, July 1923, pp.413-416."

http://www.archive.org/details/railwaymechanica97newyuoft



Bob Witt


water.kresse@...
 

Jeff,



That N&W info would be very interesting to see.  My best info was that they studied the use of both copper bearing, and later, Cor-Ten (from the C& O's shared tear-down test data) steels . . . . and didn't think they were cost effective.



The C&O published a report in 1923 about Open Hearth vs. Bessemer processed steel relative to crack propagation around rivet holes (unfortunately I can't find it now).  Apparently the slower open hearth process got rid of more phos and sulfur and was less notch sensitive.  Gondola car bodies had been shearing off their center sills.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: " traininsp " <Bbear746@ aol .com>
To: STMFC @ yahoogroups .com
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 9:28:50 AM
Subject: [ STMFC ] Re: Corroded hoppers

I don't have the data with me at the moment but the N&W also started using copper bearing steel in the 1920's for gondolas & hoppers in coal service.

Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC @ yahoogroups .com, " rwitt _2000" < rwitt _2000@...> wrote:


Tony Thompson  wrote:
      Looking through railroad industry journals such as Railway Age
in the first ten or 15 years of the 20th century will show numerous
articles and letters to the editor about corrosion prevention on steel
car bodies, which of course were then just coming into common usage.
Paint formulas, surface preparation methods, drying times, and other
aspects of the problem were repeatedly discussed. After roughly World
War I, this topic disappears from the literature, and I assume a
consensus had emerged on how best to paint steel cars. This consensus
was NOT on account of copper-bearing steel being introduced to combat
corrosion, because that happened about a decade later.
Tony,

Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?

In my reply to the original inquiry I listed the seminal article
published in 1923 by J. J. Tatum Superintendent Car Department of the
B&ORR where the B&O specifies its steel to have not less than 0.20%
copper.

"Reducing the Corrosion in Steel Cars, Steel containing a small
percentage of copper adopted to prevent rapid deterioration, J.J. Tatum,
Superintendent Car Department, Baltimore & Ohio, Railway Mechanical
Engineer, vol. 97, no. 7, July 1923, pp.413-416."

http :// www .archive.org/details/railwaymechanica97newyuoft



Bob Witt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


water.kresse@...
 

Nope . . . sorry.  They are different steels.  Copper bearing steel is not alloyed like Cor-Ten steel . . . . which are high-strength, low alloy (HSLA) steels.  Copper bearing steels are close to some of the A-?? structural grades used in I-beams, etc. today.  Copper bearing steels are midway between Plain and HSLA in corrosion resistance.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Birkett" <tnbirke@sbcglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 9:46:02 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Corroded hoppers

Copper bearing steel is known by trade names Cor-Ten (USS) and Marai
(Bethlehem, named for a place in Africa where the iron ore is naturally
mixed with copper). It was not the answer to corrosion that it was thought
to be, although there are some studies that show it holds paint better than
plain carbon steel
 
Tom

Subject: [STMFC] Re: Corroded hoppers


  

I don't have the data with me at the moment but the N&W also started using
copper bearing steel in the 1920's for gondolas & hoppers in coal service.

Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "rwitt_2000"
<rwitt_2000@...> wrote:


Tony Thompson wrote:
Looking through railroad industry journals such as Railway Age
in the first ten or 15 years of the 20th century will show numerous
articles and letters to the editor about corrosion prevention on steel
car bodies, which of course were then just coming into common usage.
Paint formulas, surface preparation methods, drying times, and other
aspects of the problem were repeatedly discussed. After roughly World
War I, this topic disappears from the literature, and I assume a
consensus had emerged on how best to paint steel cars. This consensus
was NOT on account of copper-bearing steel being introduced to combat
corrosion, because that happened about a decade later.
Tony,

Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?

In my reply to the original inquiry I listed the seminal article
published in 1923 by J. J. Tatum Superintendent Car Department of the
B&ORR where the B&O specifies its steel to have not less than 0.20%
copper.

"Reducing the Corrosion in Steel Cars, Steel containing a small
percentage of copper adopted to prevent rapid deterioration, J.J. Tatum,
Superintendent Car Department, Baltimore & Ohio, Railway Mechanical
Engineer, vol. 97, no. 7, July 1923, pp.413-416."

http://www.archive.org/details/railwaymechanica97newyuoft



Bob Witt






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bob Witt wrote:
Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?
I meant really the decade after 1910. Let's be clear: copper- bearing steels for corrosion resistance were NOT new in 1910 or 1920 but date to the late 19th century. HOWEVER, they were not widely promoted or used until the 1920s. They were not heavily promoted for railroad use until the higher-strength alloys like Cor-Ten came along circa 1930. I did not say and did not mean to imply that no one in railroading used copper-bearing steels prior to Cor-Ten.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Kresse wrote:
The C&O published a report in 1923 about Open Hearth vs. Bessemer processed steel relative to crack propagation around rivet holes (unfortunately I can't find it now). Apparently the slower open hearth process got rid of more phos and sulfur and was less notch sensitive. Gondola car bodies had been shearing off their center sills.
Yes, phosphorus is the "Achilles heel" of the Bessemer process, as P is not effectively removed in that process. It's not a matter of "slow," it's a matter of the kind of slags and the resulting chemistry. It's phosphorus which lowers notch sensitivity, if present in too large a quantity. And BTW, if used to refine iron which is naturally low in phosphorus (from the ore), the Bessemer process can produce perfectly okay steel.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history