Date
1 - 20 of 54
Contests (was: NMRA Sacramento)
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Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
An interesting lot of comments.
My own experience is with two groups that were always "prototype modeling", IPMS (all subjects but in fact about 50% aircraft, 20% armor, 10% ships, remainder everything else) and AMPS (100% armor and military figures). Additionally I am aware of two other groups, covering figures and autos. All of these place a premium on craftsmanship and accuracy in modeling. In contrast to the folks here, I would say that the members of these groups LOVE the contests, and for *exactly* the same reasons that have been given here about the lure of RPM events: To meet and talk with people; to learn how to make better models; to see great models made by others; and to buy stuff in the vendor rooms. In fact, probably the biggest event in the world for military modeling is EuroMilitare, an annual contest in the UK that is not a club or group convention at all but a contest first and foremost and a giant temporary hobby shop a close second. People travel from around the world to this event, and from what I've heard it is popular for the same reasons I mentioned. (Articles about it always have pics of Jose, Dieter, Sergei, Chun-Hsu, Brad, Neville, Pierre, etc. sitting around a restaurant table, leading me to believe that camaraderie is probably the biggest draw of all.) I wonder why there is such a stark dichotomy between the majority of railroad prototype modelers and the majority of aircraft, armor, ship, spacecraft, automobile, military figure, and even dinosaur prototype modelers? A couple of other points: - Many contests have gotten away from a 1/2/3 place format and adopted "open" judging where the models are judged against a skill standard and not each other. (The figure and armor clubs have always been this way.) - Despite what you might think from this thread, there is an abundance of "Here's how I did this" information being published by these contest-goers, both in print and on the internet. I have never run across anyone who was unwilling to share a technique or skill. Outside of the PRR project Yahoo group, I don't see much of this going on in the model RR world beyond a couple of magazines. (Certainly nothing like http://www.network54.com/Forum/110741/ or http://www.network54.com/Forum/95064/ or http://www.track-link.net/forum/site_blogs or http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload <http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&re q=viewforum&forum_id=30&page=1> &name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewforum&forum_id=30&page=1 or others) - I don't see the fantasy stuff being an issue in any way. People just don't bring them to contests unless there is a category for them. If one does show up, it never is going to do well against the standards of "fidelity to prototype". - There are always a few assholes in any gathering. Everybody hates them, everybody deals with them. KL |
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mike brock <brockm@...>
Kurt Laughlin writes about military modelers:
In contrast to the folks here, I would say that the members of these groupsOne difference between RR modeling and military modeling is that often the RR modeler is building and acquiring equipment for a given RR...albeit compressed. This commonly involves acquiring hundreds of different frt cars. Military modelers...as opposed to war gamers...usually build models of particular equipment...a Tiger II or Gustav gun or perhaps a Hester...and have the time to "super detail" them. From my knowledge, few military modelers seem to be pursuing building significant portions of an entire organization...like a RR. Add to that, RR equipment has to operate and even TRY to produce acceptable sounds. So, from my observations...there are differences. Mike Brock |
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Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
That's true Mike, but how does that relate to liking or disliking model
contests? KL From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of mike brock Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:28 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Contests (was: NMRA Sacramento) Kurt Laughlin writes about military modelers: In contrast to the folks here, I would say that the members of these groupsOne difference between RR modeling and military modeling is that often the RR modeler is building and acquiring equipment for a given RR...albeit compressed. This commonly involves acquiring hundreds of different frt cars. Military modelers...as opposed to war gamers...usually build models of particular equipment...a Tiger II or Gustav gun or perhaps a Hester...and have the time to "super detail" them. From my knowledge, few military modelers seem to be pursuing building significant portions of an entire organization...like a RR. Add to that, RR equipment has to operate and even TRY to produce acceptable sounds. So, from my observations...there are differences. Mike Brock |
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Andy Harman
At 10:27 PM 7/13/2011 -0400, you wrote:
One difference between RR modeling and military modeling is that often theMilitary modelers generally don't operate their models prototypically either. Perhaps we railroad modelers don't have to worry about brake shoe wear, but military modelers generally don't have to make sure their wheels are in gauge... nor do they have to worry about gun barrel recoil. Imagine model contests where the loser is blown up! Railroad modelers are really the only "serious" modelers who play with our toys, although this is certainly expanding now to RC cars, boats, and aircraft - but I'm guessing that their compromises for operation have more impact on prototypical fidelity than they usually do for us. I don't completely grasp why so many military modeling groups thrive on contests. There are also some RR historical societies that have some fairly serious model contests - I believe ATSF and UP both are highly competitive in this regard, although I have not been to any of their events. The last time I entered a contest of any type was at the 1988 N&W historical society convention. Even then, I would rather have just displayed but it wasn't really presented as an opportunity to do that. I brought my three newest (at the time, best) models - whereas at an RPM meet (which I had not yet been to), I bring a lot more models, including unfinished ones. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the unfinished aspect of RPM. Unfinished models generally don't have a place in a model contest, but they are a welcome and in fact a very important part of RPM meets. If everyone left their unfinished projects home, I would feel like I was missing out on a lot. I bring my own unfinished models... sometimes the same ones in the same state of (in)completion, year after year... LOL. I may have mentioned it before but I owe my clarity on contests to a professional photographer and WWII veteran I met on line some 20 years ago. When he was prodded to enter something into the forum's contest, he declined with a rather decisive finality. When I met him face to face some time later, I asked him why because the contest thing had always bugged me but I couldn't put my finger on it. He said two words: "It's demeaning". It just all clicked for me at that point. If this man, who could have easily won the contest he declined to participate in, believed having his artistic work judged at all - for good for for bad - was demeaning, well - it just made perfect sense to me. Up to that point I shied away from contests, and had never exhibited a model outside of the local NMRA show in years. And at that show, I dealt with this line all the time: "You're not entering these in a contest? And they aren't for sale? Then why are you here?" Since I discovered RPM, I haven't had to field any questions quite that stupid. I do occasionally get quizzed - pressured even - as to why my models aren't in the contest (when I used to go to the NMRA conventions). The most polite response I could give was, "that's not why I build them". Andy |
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mike brock <brockm@...>
Kurt Laughlin asks:
That's true Mike, but how does that relate to liking or disliking modelI'm not sure the issue is like or dislike but obviously from the messages some like them, some don't. I can take them or leave them although my experiences as a judge and contest "worker" indicate negative results. There are several reasons why we don't conduct conduct contests at Prototype Rails and the negative result is only one. What has [ I think ] not been mentioned is the significant amount of work involved in conducting a contest. At the last NMRA SSR convention there were about 15 models entered. Judging began at about 1 PM and was not completed until about 5PM. The contest management people could handle that number of models but not 100. At Prototype Rails 2011 we had over 1000 models displayed. Obviously 1000 would not have been entered in a contest but what if 300 had been? First, we could never have even got them entered. Contests IMO are simply impractical for an RPM meet. The bottom line, however, is that a contest generates competition....some compare such a contest to scoring as in football or baseball. I have not noted that players or fans of such teams are great friends of fans and players of other teams. Contests tend to separate rather than join. Mike Brock |
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On Jul 14, 2011, at 11:22 AM, mike brock wrote:
I have notI cannot speak from personal experience having avoided the NMRA contest arena and not knowing how Bob Hamm's reforms have worked, but one of my other objections (in addition to those stated so eloquently by others) is that for "fairness" the identity of the modeler is concealed at least until judging is complete. In my mind, this significantly reduces the amount of time available to talk about that model with the modeler, one of the huge advantages of meets like Prototype Rails. As for the concept often advanced that "you are competing against yourself, not others" baloney! If that were the case, then you wouldn't give out ribbons... and actually I can envision a world in which those who need that form of validation can still get Merit Judging and their MMRs if they want that... As for me, I see a room full of masters when I go to Cocoa or Naperville. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield." __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 |
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Andy Harman
Another detrimental aspect of contests that may not have been mentioned are the indirect
effects of "so-and-so always wins" syndrome. At the aforementioned 1988 N&WHS convention, Dean Freytag brought some massive structure for the model contest. There was a lot of good natured commentary that nobody else bothers to bring a structure because Freytag always wins. Nothing against the late Mr. Freytag in this regard - if that's his thing, so be it. And the commentary, good natured or otherwise, reflected one unfortunate side effect: I didn't get to see anybody else's structure models. When you eliminate the prizes, eliminate the judging, eliminate "Dean Freytag always wins structures", eliminate points, eliminate finish requirements, eliminate documentation requirements... an amazing thing happens. People who would bring 1-2 models bring dozens, and people who would not normally bring models at all bring many. One year at a national, a well known modeler showed up in the RPM room and put out four very nice models that I was interested in. While he was unpacking, I asked a few questions about the details, and he went into a 5 minute speech about which contests these models had won, contests he had one in the past, and mentioning some H.S. contest with a final harrumph proclaimed, "I guess I OWN that contest!" I didn't say another word, or ask another question, and I received exactly zero information about the models, details, how they were constructed, etc. The following year same guy showed up in RPM with more models. He asked me which table for his category, and I said there's no contest this year. He harrumphed again, packed up his stuff and left - presumably headed for the NMRA contest room but not really sure if he made it there. I think that's the one and only example I've come into contact with in 16 years with RPM where somebody refused to participate in RPM because he couldn't win anything. I did make the grave mistake of asking the esteemed Mr. Freytag at the start of the 2005 convention if he would be bringing anything for RPM. Boy was that a mistake. I got a loud chewing out and an earful of old school NMRA, as if he had been waiting for someone to mention those evil three letters so he could unload. I basically just got up and walked away... what else could I do? Some trains are never meant to meet I guess. That's precisely why I don't bother trying to recruit RPMers from the ranks of the NMRA or anywhere else. The RPMers seem to have no problem finding each other. Andy |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Andy Harman wrote:
Another detrimental aspect of contests that may not have been mentioned are the indirect effects of "so-and-so always wins" syndrome. At the aforementioned 1988 N&WHS convention, Dean Freytag brought some massive structure for the model contest. There was a lot of good natured commentary that nobody else bothers to bring a structure because Freytag always wins.Reminds me of a PCR contest a few years back when there was a Yosemite Valley log car in the contest. Naturally one's first thought is, "Jack Burgess," but it was S scale, so of course it couldn't be Jack. Turned out that it WAS Jack, just experimenting in another scale (he said), but I think he was trying to mess with everyone's head. Worked, too. I did make the grave mistake of asking the esteemed Mr. Freytag at the start of the 2005 convention if he would be bringing anything for RPM. Boy was that a mistake. I got a loud chewing out and an earful of old school NMRA, as if he had been waiting for someone to mention those evil three letters so he could unload.Yep, that was Dean. I knew him well when we both lived in MCR, and he was a great guy in many ways, but what Andy describes is exactly Dean's take on RPM. I never understood why. Maybe it's that "old school" NMRA mentality, which Dean certainly had in spades. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Mike Fleming
I have done my best to stay out of this one but sadly here goes. The model contests and AP program were created to to help model railroaders inprove their skills. Has it been perverted or distorted, yes to a certain extent. Has it accomplished its goals, for many including me the answer would be yes. I am a better modeler than I was before I started participating in the AP program, that would be yes. Will I ever achieve MMR, no, I don't have the skills and don't have the time to develop them. I am not as familiar with the RPM movement but what is its goal, to encourage the modeler to improve his skills. Does it to that, I think to a certain extent yes. Does it have issues and problems, yes. A similar discussion can occur with Free-mo, is it good for the hobby yes, does it have issues and problems, yes.
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In some of this discussion I have observed an almost visceral hatred for the NMRA model contests and in extension the NMRA. Do I like everything the NMRA does, is, and stands for, no. But as another group member stated where would the hobby be without it. I don't think we should be so anxious to throw the baby out with the bath water. The NMRA model contests have had and still have a purpose, and I find it very distasteful that many of you are trashing it. I would also find it distasteful on an NMRA group if they were trashing an RPM model displays. My apologies to Mr. Brock if this is out of line. Mike Fleming Superintendent, Bluff City Div. SER, NMRA President Emeritus, Memphis Society of Model Railroaders Vice President, Memphis Railroad and Trolley Museum Model Railroad Club, a 100% NMRA Member Club ---------- Original Message ----------
From: "mike brock" <brockm@...> To: <STMFC@...> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Contests (was: NMRA Sacramento) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 12:22:58 -0400 Kurt Laughlin asks: That's true Mike, but how does that relate to liking or disliking modelI'm not sure the issue is like or dislike but obviously from the messages some like them, some don't. I can take them or leave them although my experiences as a judge and contest "worker" indicate negative results. There are several reasons why we don't conduct conduct contests at Prototype Rails and the negative result is only one. What has [ I think ] not been mentioned is the significant amount of work involved in conducting a contest. At the last NMRA SSR convention there were about 15 models entered. Judging began at about 1 PM and was not completed until about 5PM. The contest management people could handle that number of models but not 100. At Prototype Rails 2011 we had over 1000 models displayed. Obviously 1000 would not have been entered in a contest but what if 300 had been? First, we could never have even got them entered. Contests IMO are simply impractical for an RPM meet. The bottom line, however, is that a contest generates competition....some compare such a contest to scoring as in football or baseball. I have not noted that players or fans of such teams are great friends of fans and players of other teams. Contests tend to separate rather than join. Mike Brock |
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Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
Andy,
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How does one get judged for NMRA achievement programs? Joel Holmes Another detrimental aspect of contests that may not have been mentioned |
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Pierre <pierre.oliver@...>
Well said, Mike.
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That pretty well covers it, perhaps we can move on now to Steam Era Freight Car Issues and concerns. Pierre Oliver --- In STMFC@..., "Mike Fleming" <mrfleming@...> wrote:
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Benjamin Hom
Mike Fleming wrote:
"The NMRA model contests have had and still have a purpose, and I find it very distasteful that many of you are trashing it. I would also find it distasteful on an NMRA group if they were trashing an RPM model displays." Just as many of us in the Prototype Modelers movement found it distasteful to be treated as the enemy during the late 1980s, or to be accused of runing the hobby multiple times since then (as they were buying quality RTR by the armload), or to have shouted in my face "DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH" during an NMRA national. Point a finger, and four point back at you. Ben Hom |
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Andy Harman
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 10:35:02 -0700, Anthony Thompson wrote
Reminds me of a PCR contest a few years back when there was aJimmy Booth prodded me back in the roaring 90s to give Sn3 a try, even took me on some really fabulous layout tours at Madison in 97. I ended up with a few kits. Maybe I should build up that drop-bottom gondola and bring it to an RPM meet. Maybe credit it to Barry Sachs. I do love all drop bottom gondolas and the PBL is one of the most interesting of all to me. Yep, that was Dean. I knew him well when we both lived in MCR,That's what caught me off guard... when I met him in 88 he was a great guy, but I guess having seen him at many conventions but never in RPM should have tipped me off. Andy |
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Andy Harman
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 12:46:35 -0500 (CDT), Joel Holmes wrote
I have no idea. Well actually I have some idea, I presume it would have to be at an NMRA event of some sort. Most RPM meets are not. Andy |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Mike Fleming wrote:
The NMRA model contests have had and still have a purpose, and I find it very distasteful that many of you are trashing it. I would also find it distasteful on an NMRA group if they were trashing an RPM model displays.Mike, you may not know this, but NMRA officials repeatedly treated RPM with great disdain and even hostility at NMRA National after National in the 1990s and in some cases even after 2000. Several convention committees deliberately placed RPM rooms in out-of-the-way places, and then visited said rooms to declaim on how "wrong" RPM was. That's the reason so many RPM folks have a pretty negative view of NMRA. Treat us like trash, and surprise, we view you the same way. Don't misunderstand me. I'm a Life Member of NMRA and have served in several division and region offices (including five years as PCR contest chair), as well as attending probably 15 or so Nationals. But I have also helped organize a number of RPM exhibits, and the ill treatment of RPM still rankles. I'm not about to forget it, particularly since one still encounters the same attitude from "old school" NMRA members. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
Joel,
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There are two ways to have your work merit judged, NMRA contests, and Regional or Division merit judging. Each Division has an Achievement Chair and each Region has an Achievement Program Chair. Merit judging is frequently conducted at division meets, but you can contact the division chair to request judging at other, e.g. scenery, etc. You must be an NMRA member to participate in the Achievement Program. Nelson -----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Joel Holmes Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:47 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Contests (was: NMRA Sacramento) Andy, How does one get judged for NMRA achievement programs? Joel Holmes Another detrimental aspect of contests that may not have been mentioned |
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Marty McGuirk
And be aware - you'll find little or no consitency amongst the various AP chairpersons. Like the one who told me that "kit built cars don't qualify for the AP Merit award for rolling stock - you need to show 12 cars - 6 need merit awards (basically, 87.5 points out of 125) - and those six MUST be scratchbuilt."
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That of course, doesn't align with the NMRA AP requirements, but I've lost interest in fighting with these guys about their own rules. Marty --- In STMFC@..., "Nelson Moyer" <ku0a@...> wrote:
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Andy Harman
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 10:59:13 -0700 (PDT), Benjamin Hom wrote
This is certainly true. I don't speak for all RPMers nor do I have any control over their behavior individually or collectively. However, I can say with certainly I've never chewed out an NMRA member for not being a prototype modeler, I've never accused an NMRA member (or the NMRA as a whole) of ruining the hobby, and I've never tried to exert any influence on the NMRA, other than my brief and embattled tenure trying to procure RPM space at several nationals. On the other hand, I have been loudly chewed out by NMRA members (including the national contest chair, on line - it's still in the usenet archives), regularly accused of ruining the hobby, and have been leaned on in general by NMRA people, although this is largely in the past. I've had sort of an ongoing dialogue with Brestel and Koester about RPM's role in the NMRA. I have to agree that the NMRA - as a whole, at a national level - has extended the olive branch and as far as I can tell since 2005 have willingly provided separate space for RPM at nationals. Depending on the locale, RPM has participated to varying degrees. Nice to hear PCR does have a presence, but as I mentioned the turnout in 2002 and 2005 (the last two I attended) was very poor for RPM, and near as I can tell RPM was nonexistent at the 2003 and 2004 conventions. While I'm good with what the NMRA has done, far too many RPMers have moved on without looking back, and I can't bring them back - it's not my job. And at the same time, with RPM participation so slim, I have no incentive to attend a national. I realize there are clinics, tours, and all that stuff, none of which I'm really into - even at RPM meets, I attend few if any clinics and as Mike Brock and Jeff Aley can tell you, I generally have to be dragged out of the model room when it's time to give my OWN clinic. So the NMRA nat is not a good deal for me, unless I can bundle it with a California vacation, and do a day at the NTS on the side. I can't see ever buying a full fare convention pass again. I just realized I'm currently expired (again) as an NMRA member. It's not really intentional but my renewal comes during the holidays when I have lots and lots of bills and renewals to deal with, and I tend to overlook it and 6 months down the road I start to think, how long has it been since I got a Bully in the mail? I think they send one reminder notice out after 30 days, and after that... silencio. The local show committee keeps me on their mailing list forever though, I always get a registration packet whether I can be there or not - in recent years, 50% of the time it conflicts with Naperville. Not sure about this year yet. Andy |
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Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
There are four requirements for individual success in the Achievement
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Program: A. An interest in participating B. NMRA membership C. Decent modeling skills, including the ability to scratchbuild D. The ability to produce supporting documentation for the models that require merit judging, e.g. 6 of twelve structures and 4 of 8 cars, etc. Anyone who can scratchbuild and/or superdetail models is capable of becoming an MMR, however there are many excellent modelers who have no interest whatsoever in the Achievement Program, for whatever reason. Having just completed the requirements for MMR in just under two years, I can attest to the fact that learning new skills is a major part of the process, as it was intended to be. Another benefit of participation is the new friendships with like-minded individuals made along the way. You don't even have to have a layout at home, since work on a friends layout or a club layout counts. MMR requirements aren't all about building models. Some service, technical, and operational elements are required in addition to the ability to build models. The Achievement Program serves a valid function within the NMRA, and you can participate all the way to MMR without entering a single contest if you're turned off by contest judges. Typically, merit judges have more time to study you documentation, and look at your model. That can be good or bad, depending upon how well you built the model and how well you prepared your documentation. If you're interested in the Achievement Program, join NMRA and start with merit judging, then enter some contests if you choose to as you gain confidence. Most of the modelers on this list are probably already MMRs or good enough to be MMRs if they wanted to participate, however some on the list may be waiting for a nudge to get their feet wet. Bottom line, have fun. Nelson -----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Mike Fleming Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:39 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Contests (was: NMRA Sacramento) I have done my best to stay out of this one but sadly here goes. The model contests and AP program were created to to help model railroaders inprove their skills. Has it been perverted or distorted, yes to a certain extent. Has it accomplished its goals, for many including me the answer would be yes. I am a better modeler than I was before I started participating in the AP program, that would be yes. Will I ever achieve MMR, no, I don't have the skills and don't have the time to develop them. I am not as familiar with the RPM movement but what is its goal, to encourage the modeler to improve his skills. Does it to that, I think to a certain extent yes. Does it have issues and problems, yes. A similar discussion can occur with Free-mo, is it good for the hobby yes, does it have issues and problems, yes. In some of this discussion I have observed an almost visceral hatred for the NMRA model contests and in extension the NMRA. Do I like everything the NMRA does, is, and stands for, no. But as another group member stated where would the hobby be without it. I don't think we should be so anxious to throw the baby out with the bath water. The NMRA model contests have had and still have a purpose, and I find it very distasteful that many of you are trashing it. I would also find it distasteful on an NMRA group if they were trashing an RPM model displays. My apologies to Mr. Brock if this is out of line. Mike Fleming Superintendent, Bluff City Div. SER, NMRA President Emeritus, Memphis Society of Model Railroaders Vice President, Memphis Railroad and Trolley Museum Model Railroad Club, a 100% NMRA Member Club ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "mike brock" <brockm@...> To: <STMFC@...> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Contests (was: NMRA Sacramento) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 12:22:58 -0400 Kurt Laughlin asks: That's true Mike, but how does that relate to liking or dislikingI'm not sure the issue is like or dislike but obviously from the messages some like them, some don't. I can take them or leave them although my experiences as a judge and contest "worker" indicate negative results. There are several reasons why we don't conduct conduct contests at Prototype Rails and the negative result is only one. What has [ I think ] not been mentioned is the significant amount of work involved in conducting a contest. At the last NMRA SSR convention there were about 15 models entered. Judging began at about 1 PM and was not completed until about 5PM. The contest management people could handle that number of models but not 100. At Prototype Rails 2011 we had over 1000 models displayed. Obviously 1000 would not have been entered in a contest but what if 300 had been? First, we could never have even got them entered. Contests IMO are simply impractical for an RPM meet. The bottom line, however, is that a contest generates competition....some compare such a contest to scoring as in football or baseball. I have not noted that players or fans of such teams are great friends of fans and players of other teams. Contests tend to separate rather than join. Mike Brock ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Mike Fleming
Jason,
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I would add a link to the AP section of the NMRA Website http://www.nmra.org/education/achievement/ There is a wealth of information here. There is also a yahoo group for anyone in the AP program it is NMRAAP Mike Fleming Superintendent, Bluff City Div. SER, NMRA President Emeritus, Memphis Society of Model Railroaders Vice President, Memphis Railroad and Trolley Museum Model Railroad Club, a 100% NMRA Member Club ---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Nelson Moyer" <ku0a@...> To: <STMFC@...> Subject: RE: [STMFC] Contests (was: NMRA Sacramento) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:44:21 -0500 There are four requirements for individual success in the Achievement Program: A. An interest in participating B. NMRA membership C. Decent modeling skills, including the ability to scratchbuild D. The ability to produce supporting documentation for the models that require merit judging, e.g. 6 of twelve structures and 4 of 8 cars, etc. Anyone who can scratchbuild and/or superdetail models is capable of becoming an MMR, however there are many excellent modelers who have no interest whatsoever in the Achievement Program, for whatever reason. Having just completed the requirements for MMR in just under two years, I can attest to the fact that learning new skills is a major part of the process, as it was intended to be. Another benefit of participation is the new friendships with like-minded individuals made along the way. You don't even have to have a layout at home, since work on a friends layout or a club layout counts. MMR requirements aren't all about building models. Some service, technical, and operational elements are required in addition to the ability to build models. The Achievement Program serves a valid function within the NMRA, and you can participate all the way to MMR without entering a single contest if you're turned off by contest judges. Typically, merit judges have more time to study you documentation, and look at your model. That can be good or bad, depending upon how well you built the model and how well you prepared your documentation. If you're interested in the Achievement Program, join NMRA and start with merit judging, then enter some contests if you choose to as you gain confidence. Most of the modelers on this list are probably already MMRs or good enough to be MMRs if they wanted to participate, however some on the list may be waiting for a nudge to get their feet wet. Bottom line, have fun. Nelson -----Original Message----- From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Mike Fleming Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:39 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Contests (was: NMRA Sacramento) I have done my best to stay out of this one but sadly here goes. The model contests and AP program were created to to help model railroaders inprove their skills. Has it been perverted or distorted, yes to a certain extent. Has it accomplished its goals, for many including me the answer would be yes. I am a better modeler than I was before I started participating in the AP program, that would be yes. Will I ever achieve MMR, no, I don't have the skills and don't have the time to develop them. I am not as familiar with the RPM movement but what is its goal, to encourage the modeler to improve his skills. Does it to that, I think to a certain extent yes. Does it have issues and problems, yes. A similar discussion can occur with Free-mo, is it good for the hobby yes, does it have issues and problems, yes. In some of this discussion I have observed an almost visceral hatred for the NMRA model contests and in extension the NMRA. Do I like everything the NMRA does, is, and stands for, no. But as another group member stated where would the hobby be without it. I don't think we should be so anxious to throw the baby out with the bath water. The NMRA model contests have had and still have a purpose, and I find it very distasteful that many of you are trashing it. I would also find it distasteful on an NMRA group if they were trashing an RPM model displays. My apologies to Mr. Brock if this is out of line. Mike Fleming Superintendent, Bluff City Div. SER, NMRA President Emeritus, Memphis Society of Model Railroaders Vice President, Memphis Railroad and Trolley Museum Model Railroad Club, a 100% NMRA Member Club ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "mike brock" <brockm@...> To: <STMFC@...> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Contests (was: NMRA Sacramento) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 12:22:58 -0400 Kurt Laughlin asks: That's true Mike, but how does that relate to liking or dislikingI'm not sure the issue is like or dislike but obviously from the messages some like them, some don't. I can take them or leave them although my experiences as a judge and contest "worker" indicate negative results. There are several reasons why we don't conduct conduct contests at Prototype Rails and the negative result is only one. What has [ I think ] not been mentioned is the significant amount of work involved in conducting a contest. At the last NMRA SSR convention there were about 15 models entered. Judging began at about 1 PM and was not completed until about 5PM. The contest management people could handle that number of models but not 100. At Prototype Rails 2011 we had over 1000 models displayed. Obviously 1000 would not have been entered in a contest but what if 300 had been? First, we could never have even got them entered. Contests IMO are simply impractical for an RPM meet. The bottom line, however, is that a contest generates competition....some compare such a contest to scoring as in football or baseball. I have not noted that players or fans of such teams are great friends of fans and players of other teams. Contests tend to separate rather than join. Mike Brock [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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