Decal water wet?


dennyanspach <danspach@...>
 

To reduce surface tension, how many of you use any form of "wet" water for decaling; and if so, just what methods do you use to wet the water? I have long been tempted to go this route, but have been deterred by ignorance of just how successful it is, or would be, and- whether or not there would be some permanent visible effect on the decals.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


O Fenton Wells
 

I don't know about anyone else but I use the distilled wated and it stopped
the white water residue marks on the model. It's cheap and it works for me.
Fenton Wells

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 4:21 PM, dennyanspach <danspach@macnexus.org> wrote:

**


To reduce surface tension, how many of you use any form of "wet" water for
decaling; and if so, just what methods do you use to wet the water? I have
long been tempted to go this route, but have been deterred by ignorance of
just how successful it is, or would be, and- whether or not there would be
some permanent visible effect on the decals.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@gmail.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

I've never had the need when using setting solution, but a drop or two of
dish detergent would probably do as much as anything.



KL



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
dennyanspach
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:21 PM
To: Era Freight Car List Steam
Subject: [STMFC] Decal water wet?





To reduce surface tension, how many of you use any form of "wet" water for
decaling; and if so, just what methods do you use to wet the water? I have
long been tempted to go this route, but have been deterred by ignorance of
just how successful it is, or would be, and- whether or not there would be
some permanent visible effect on the decals.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Tom Houle <thoule@...>
 

I use distilled water and Micro Scale Blue decal setting formula. Works
great. Why reduce surface tension?
Tom Houle


On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 4:21 PM, dennyanspach <danspach@macnexus.org> wrote:

**


To reduce surface tension, how many of you use any form of "wet" water
for decaling; and if so, just what methods do you use to wet the
water? I have long been tempted to go this route, but have been
deterred by ignorance of just how successful it is, or would be, and-
whether or not there would be some permanent visible effect on the decals.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento






--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@gmail.com






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Denny Anspach wrote:
To reduce surface tension, how many of you use any form of "wet" water for decaling; and if so, just what methods do you use to wet the water? I have long been tempted to go this route, but have been deterred by ignorance of just how successful it is, or would be, and- whether or not there would be some permanent visible effect on the decals.
I've never had any problem decaling with tap water. Maybe our domestic water is just clean.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Charles Hladik
 

Well there goes my theory, I was hoping it was the water around Berkeley,
but..........
Chuck Hladik

In a message dated 11/26/2011 6:44:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
thompson@signaturepress.com writes:




Denny Anspach wrote:
To reduce surface tension, how many of you use any form of "wet"
water for decaling; and if so, just what methods do you use to wet
the water? I have long been tempted to go this route, but have been
deterred by ignorance of just how successful it is, or would be,
and- whether or not there would be some permanent visible effect on
the decals.
I've never had any problem decaling with tap water. Maybe our
domestic water is just clean.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, _thompson@signaturepress.com_
(mailto:thompson@signaturepress.com)
Publishers of books on railroad history


Schuyler Larrabee
 

For larger decals I've not bothered with wetting the water. But for little
lettering I have done this with a brushfull or two of Kodak Photo-flo. A
brushfull does enough for a saucer of water, maybe a half cup. There does
not appear to be any effect on the decals themselves, nor is there any
"salting" after the water dries. I find it helpful when trying to marshal
something into just the . . . . right . . . . place.



Distilled water, of course.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
dennyanspach
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:21 PM
To: Era Freight Car List Steam
Subject: [STMFC] Decal water wet?





To reduce surface tension, how many of you use any form of "wet" water for
decaling; and if so, just what methods do you use to wet the water? I have
long been tempted to go this route, but have been deterred by ignorance of
just how successful it is, or would be, and- whether or not there would be
some permanent visible effect on the decals.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento










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jerryglow2
 

Sounds like your trying to apply the over a dull or not slick enough surface. In ten years as a full time custom painter, I never faced this situation and I applied a LOT of decals.

Jerry Glow
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/decals/

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

For larger decals I've not bothered with wetting the water. But for little
lettering I have done this with a brushfull or two of Kodak Photo-flo. A
brushfull does enough for a saucer of water, maybe a half cup. There does
not appear to be any effect on the decals themselves, nor is there any
"salting" after the water dries. I find it helpful when trying to marshal
something into just the . . . . right . . . . place.



Distilled water, of course.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
dennyanspach
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:21 PM
To: Era Freight Car List Steam
Subject: [STMFC] Decal water wet?





To reduce surface tension, how many of you use any form of "wet" water for
decaling; and if so, just what methods do you use to wet the water? I have
long been tempted to go this route, but have been deterred by ignorance of
just how successful it is, or would be, and- whether or not there would be
some permanent visible effect on the decals.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tim O'Connor
 

I use pure distilled water, but I guess 1 drop of dish detergent
in a bowl of water would break up any surface tension and probably
would not have ill effects on the decal. But it's never occurred to
me that surface tension is a problem...

I've never had any problem decaling with tap water. Maybe our
domestic water is just clean.

Tony Thompson


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Not so sure about detergent, since there are other things in it besides
whatever it is that breaks surface tension. That's what drew me to
Photo-flo, since it's used for photographic printing, where you don't want
anything screwing up your chemicals.



Of course, I do have some concerns about whether Photo-flo will continue to
be available, given what is happening with photographic processes.



Schuyler



I use pure distilled water, but I guess 1 drop of dish detergent
in a bowl of water would break up any surface tension and probably
would not have ill effects on the decal. But it's never occurred to
me that surface tension is a problem...

I've never had any problem decaling with tap water. Maybe our
domestic water is just clean.

Tony Thompson




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Jim Betz
 

Denny,

I have used a drop of Kodak Photo Flo in the past and it worked
well. What I do now is to

1) Use tap water. The water at my house is -very- hard.

2) Use small 1" squares of paper napkin (hard surface, no
fuzz on edge) to wick as much water off the model as
possible - by holding them in a pair of tweezers and
touching just the corner of the square in the edge
of the water (well away from the decal).

3) During this phase - perhaps two to 4 different wettings
(floating more tap water over the decal) - I will use
a long pin with a ball shaped end on it to prick areas
that are 'bubbled up off the model'.
4) After I have the decal 'setttled down' then I use
... sorry, but it is what I do ... Testor's Solvaset
for the final setting. I do -not- use a pin on a wet
decal that has Solvaset on it - too easy to drag the
pin sideways and destroy a part of the decal.

5) After the decal is fully set and has fully dried one
time after the Solvaset ... I inspect carefully for
"white lines around the outside of the decal" ... if
there are any I wash, usually only one time, with
distilled water.
- Jim


John H <sprinthag@...>
 

I use distilled water and have no problems with any crud needing clean-up. I have tried both detergent and Photo-Flo with no appreciable difference from straight water. And yes. I only will try to prick any bubbles once the decal is dried after applying setting fluid.

John Hagen

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:

Denny,

I have used a drop of Kodak Photo Flo in the past and it worked
well. What I do now is to

1) Use tap water. The water at my house is -very- hard.

2) Use small 1" squares of paper napkin (hard surface, no
fuzz on edge) to wick as much water off the model as
possible - by holding them in a pair of tweezers and
touching just the corner of the square in the edge
of the water (well away from the decal).

3) During this phase - perhaps two to 4 different wettings
(floating more tap water over the decal) - I will use
a long pin with a ball shaped end on it to prick areas
that are 'bubbled up off the model'.
4) After I have the decal 'setttled down' then I use
... sorry, but it is what I do ... Testor's Solvaset
for the final setting. I do -not- use a pin on a wet
decal that has Solvaset on it - too easy to drag the
pin sideways and destroy a part of the decal.

5) After the decal is fully set and has fully dried one
time after the Solvaset ... I inspect carefully for
"white lines around the outside of the decal" ... if
there are any I wash, usually only one time, with
distilled water.
- Jim


Schuyler Larrabee
 

No, the surface is fine. What works for me may not be what works for you.
And I've been painting and decaling models for >35 years.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
jerryglow@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 10:20 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Decal water wet?





Sounds like your trying to apply the over a dull or not slick enough
surface. In ten years as a full time custom painter, I never faced this
situation and I applied a LOT of decals.

Jerry Glow
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/decals/

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Schuyler
Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

For larger decals I've not bothered with wetting the water. But for little
lettering I have done this with a brushfull or two of Kodak Photo-flo. A
brushfull does enough for a saucer of water, maybe a half cup. There does
not appear to be any effect on the decals themselves, nor is there any
"salting" after the water dries. I find it helpful when trying to marshal
something into just the . . . . right . . . . place.



Distilled water, of course.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of
dennyanspach
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:21 PM
To: Era Freight Car List Steam
Subject: [STMFC] Decal water wet?





To reduce surface tension, how many of you use any form of "wet" water for
decaling; and if so, just what methods do you use to wet the water? I have
long been tempted to go this route, but have been deterred by ignorance of
just how successful it is, or would be, and- whether or not there would be
some permanent visible effect on the decals.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento










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Andy Sperandeo
 

I'm with John Hagen on this: I use distilled water, no wetting agent, and generally have no white deposits to clean up.

I also use the "float-off method that Champ Decals used to recommend. For most decals other than MicroScale's, I place the dry decal on the surface of the water and wait for the paper to drop to the bottom and leave the decal floating. Champ's instructions said this allowed the decal adhesive to dissolve, so that it can't form any residue on the model.

So long,

Andy


dennyanspach <danspach@...>
 

A lot of interesting and critical replies:

My question arose from a recent experience with some relatively ancient, but otherwise still very fine Champ decals whose decal paper simply would not "wet" in any kind of timely fashion, forcing me to eventually "push" the decal off- hazarding the decal in the process (the paper was still almost dry underneath the film). Also, increasingly, I am placing my decal water in very shallow jar lids, etc. with the water only about 1/8"-3/16" deep. In this circumstance, of course the effects of surface tension are closer at hand. I use the shallow pan/dish so that tiny decals do not sink out of sight when I am futilely chasing them around the surface (surface tension effect), and there is much less water through which I must futilely fish around to at last find the little @#$%^&* (if I find it at all) when they sink.

I have always used tap water and never, ever had residue problems, but using distilled water would also also seem a no-brainer (is there an expected difference in surface tension between distilled water -no minerals-, and tap water -varying amounts and kinds of minerals?.

I like the PhotoFlo idea. I would expect one bottle to last both me, my children, and my grandchildren at the rate I would use it, however.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


jerryglow2
 

Didn't mean it to sound like a criticism but I'll admit to trying to settle for a less than idea surface at times and had problems with decals. There's so many variables sometimes it's hard to pin down a cause other than just bad luck.

JErry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

No, the surface is fine. What works for me may not be what works for you.
And I've been painting and decaling models for >35 years.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
jerryglow@...
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 10:20 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Decal water wet?





Sounds like your trying to apply the over a dull or not slick enough
surface. In ten years as a full time custom painter, I never faced this
situation and I applied a LOT of decals.

Jerry Glow
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/decals/

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Schuyler
Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@> wrote:

For larger decals I've not bothered with wetting the water. But for little
lettering I have done this with a brushfull or two of Kodak Photo-flo. A
brushfull does enough for a saucer of water, maybe a half cup. There does
not appear to be any effect on the decals themselves, nor is there any
"salting" after the water dries. I find it helpful when trying to marshal
something into just the . . . . right . . . . place.



Distilled water, of course.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of
dennyanspach
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:21 PM
To: Era Freight Car List Steam
Subject: [STMFC] Decal water wet?





To reduce surface tension, how many of you use any form of "wet" water for
decaling; and if so, just what methods do you use to wet the water? I have
long been tempted to go this route, but have been deterred by ignorance of
just how successful it is, or would be, and- whether or not there would be
some permanent visible effect on the decals.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


sctry
 

Denny,

I, too, have had similar experience with older Champ decals. I have just left them to absorb water through the backing paper until it falls way. Some times this may take as much as forty five minutes.

Chasing the tiny white lettering on the decal film is made easier if you use a glass ashtray paited BLACK on the outside as your vessel to soak in.

J. Greedy

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, dennyanspach <danspach@...> wrote:

A lot of interesting and critical replies:

My question arose from a recent experience with some relatively ancient, but otherwise still very fine Champ decals whose decal paper simply would not "wet" in any kind of timely fashion, forcing me to eventually "push" the decal off- hazarding the decal in the process (the paper was still almost dry underneath the film). Also, increasingly, I am placing my decal water in very shallow jar lids, etc. with the water only about 1/8"-3/16" deep. In this circumstance, of course the effects of surface tension are closer at hand. I use the shallow pan/dish so that tiny decals do not sink out of sight when I am futilely chasing them around the surface (surface tension effect), and there is much less water through which I must futilely fish around to at last find the little @#$%^&* (if I find it at all) when they sink.

I have always used tap water and never, ever had residue problems, but using distilled water would also also seem a no-brainer (is there an expected difference in surface tension between distilled water -no minerals-, and tap water -varying amounts and kinds of minerals?.

I like the PhotoFlo idea. I would expect one bottle to last both me, my children, and my grandchildren at the rate I would use it, however.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento









james murrie
 

I've started putting my dish of tap water in the microwave for a minute or so before I toss in the decals. Using this "hot" water (more like hot shower temperature) cuts the time to float off the backing to seconds instead of minutes. In most cases I keep the decals secured in tweezers to make sure I don't have to immediately start chasing the decals around the water. New Microscale decals seem to slide off in seconds, older Champ ones only slightly longer.
FWIW
Jim Murrie


Kenneth Montero
 

Denny,

I have used a black plastic watermark detector tray (from my stamp collecting supplies) for use with white and other light color decals in removing the backing. They are inexpensive ($2-$3) and pretty much unbreakable if dropped (unlike glass containers). Even the smallest decal shows up if it floats off the paper, even if it settles to the bottom. (Of course, if one finds a black plastic lid, it will have the same results for free).

Ken Montero

----- Original Message -----
From: "sctry" <JGreedy@insight.rr.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 8:51:03 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Decal water wet?






Denny,

I, too, have had similar experience with older Champ decals. I have just left them to absorb water through the backing paper until it falls way. Some times this may take as much as forty five minutes.

Chasing the tiny white lettering on the decal film is made easier if you use a glass ashtray paited BLACK on the outside as your vessel to soak in.

J. Greedy

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com , dennyanspach <danspach@...> wrote:

A lot of interesting and critical replies:

My question arose from a recent experience with some relatively ancient, but otherwise still very fine Champ decals whose decal paper simply would not "wet" in any kind of timely fashion, forcing me to eventually "push" the decal off- hazarding the decal in the process (the paper was still almost dry underneath the film). Also, increasingly, I am placing my decal water in very shallow jar lids, etc. with the water only about 1/8"-3/16" deep. In this circumstance, of course the effects of surface tension are closer at hand. I use the shallow pan/dish so that tiny decals do not sink out of sight when I am futilely chasing them around the surface (surface tension effect), and there is much less water through which I must futilely fish around to at last find the little @#$%^&* (if I find it at all) when they sink.

I have always used tap water and never, ever had residue problems, but using distilled water would also also seem a no-brainer (is there an expected difference in surface tension between distilled water -no minerals-, and tap water -varying amounts and kinds of minerals?.

I like the PhotoFlo idea. I would expect one bottle to last both me, my children, and my grandchildren at the rate I would use it, however.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


John H <sprinthag@...>
 

I purchased my bottle of Photo Flo at least twenty years ago (probably more and quite possbilly many more) for use in the then new water based paints. I was conserned about the cost until I went to a photo shop and inquired. The bottle was like three bucks, cheap enough even back then.

I didn't find it to be all that big improvement for painting so I tried it on decals. I did do several trials with painting a a fedw with decaling and still have still have a third of the bottle remaining. So give it a try. It just may work with your method of application. It should definitely help those old Champ decal paper absorb water but then, so should a drop of dish detergent.

John Hagen

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, dennyanspach <danspach@...> wrote:

A lot of interesting and critical replies:

My question arose from a recent experience with some relatively ancient, but otherwise still very fine Champ decals whose decal paper simply would not "wet" in any kind of timely fashion, forcing me to eventually "push" the decal off- hazarding the decal in the process (the paper was still almost dry underneath the film). Also, increasingly, I am placing my decal water in very shallow jar lids, etc. with the water only about 1/8"-3/16" deep. In this circumstance, of course the effects of surface tension are closer at hand. I use the shallow pan/dish so that tiny decals do not sink out of sight when I am futilely chasing them around the surface (surface tension effect), and there is much less water through which I must futilely fish around to at last find the little @#$%^&* (if I find it at all) when they sink.

I have always used tap water and never, ever had residue problems, but using distilled water would also also seem a no-brainer (is there an expected difference in surface tension between distilled water -no minerals-, and tap water -varying amounts and kinds of minerals?.

I like the PhotoFlo idea. I would expect one bottle to last both me, my children, and my grandchildren at the rate I would use it, however.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]