Patch panels, was: In praise of 0.005 styrene


Jim Mischke
 

When I was building ship and airplane models as a kid, they came with the thickest rankest baddest decals imaginable. Monogram and Revell. Decal film was thicker than baseball card bubblegum. Worse than early Walthers, but not by much. I still have some around, for just this purpose.

Consider such garage sale model decals for HO scale boxcar and hopper patchwork.

- This would work best on unpainted models, even the clear sections are only translucent at best.

- Use decal solvent lightly. You do NOT want to dissolve these bad boys, only apply dilute solvent for positioning, settling, and adherance.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Todd Horton <toddchorton@...> wrote:

Has anyone tred to use this for patch panels on X29's? Sound like if this is available in clear then you  might be able to "fix" an early decorated Red Caboose model without repainting.  Todd Horton

From: Andy Carlson <midcentury@...>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] In praise of 0.005 styrene


 
Jack Spencer gets great results with varying thicknesses of Mylar. .003" -.006"
sheets are commonly used by him.

Myself, I like using the RC item self-adhesive "Monocote Trim", not to be
confused with heat-shrinking Monokote. The trim is .003" plastic film with a
peel-off paper backing, and is very good at taking rivet impressions. Comes in
almost any color imagined, except light gray was not available when I made my
last purchase-I settled for white.

I have had excellent results bonding .005" styrene to styrene by applying small
amounts of Testors solvent glue to the area of the field with which you intend
to place the .005" overlay. Wait for the solvent to flash off, then place your
thin .005" plastic piece in place. The amount of residual solvent makes an
excellent bond. Doesn't fall off, even when used for patterns and removed from
the mold.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 22, 2011 10:52:44 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] In praise of 0.005 styrene

I only wish we could get .003 sheet, in BLACK styrene. :-)

But I am a huge fan of Evergreen including the .005 sheet.

Ever use aluminum foil for parts? I made some door stops for
a stock car from HVAC 'sticky' aluminum foil. I didn't have
to glue the base to the car, just used the stick-um that came
with it. They've never failed, and the car is over 10 yrs old.
One nice thing about the foil is it that it can be cut very
precisely with scissors, or a paper cutter.

Tim O'Connor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Bill Welch
 

Actually I was thinking of using clear Champ scraps.

Bill

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "jim_mischke" <jmischke@...> wrote:



When I was building ship and airplane models as a kid, they came with the thickest rankest baddest decals imaginable. Monogram and Revell. Decal film was thicker than baseball card bubblegum. Worse than early Walthers, but not by much. I still have some around, for just this purpose.

Consider such garage sale model decals for HO scale boxcar and hopper patchwork.

- This would work best on unpainted models, even the clear sections are only translucent at best.

- Use decal solvent lightly. You do NOT want to dissolve these bad boys, only apply dilute solvent for positioning, settling, and adherance.










--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Todd Horton <toddchorton@> wrote:

Has anyone tred to use this for patch panels on X29's? Sound like if this is available in clear then you  might be able to "fix" an early decorated Red Caboose model without repainting.  Todd Horton

From: Andy Carlson <midcentury@>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] In praise of 0.005 styrene


 
Jack Spencer gets great results with varying thicknesses of Mylar. .003" -.006"
sheets are commonly used by him.

Myself, I like using the RC item self-adhesive "Monocote Trim", not to be
confused with heat-shrinking Monokote. The trim is .003" plastic film with a
peel-off paper backing, and is very good at taking rivet impressions. Comes in
almost any color imagined, except light gray was not available when I made my
last purchase-I settled for white.

I have had excellent results bonding .005" styrene to styrene by applying small
amounts of Testors solvent glue to the area of the field with which you intend
to place the .005" overlay. Wait for the solvent to flash off, then place your
thin .005" plastic piece in place. The amount of residual solvent makes an
excellent bond. Doesn't fall off, even when used for patterns and removed from
the mold.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 22, 2011 10:52:44 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] In praise of 0.005 styrene

I only wish we could get .003 sheet, in BLACK styrene. :-)

But I am a huge fan of Evergreen including the .005 sheet.

Ever use aluminum foil for parts? I made some door stops for
a stock car from HVAC 'sticky' aluminum foil. I didn't have
to glue the base to the car, just used the stick-um that came
with it. They've never failed, and the car is over 10 yrs old.
One nice thing about the foil is it that it can be cut very
precisely with scissors, or a paper cutter.

Tim O'Connor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tim O'Connor
 

Using Champ decal paper for patches is a brilliant idea! I never
thought of it. It would work great for truck trailer roof patches!

Tim "wishing I'd some extra blank decal sheets" O'Connor

At 12/23/2011 05:48 PM Friday, you wrote:
Actually I was thinking of using clear Champ scraps.
Bill


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Using Champ decal paper for patches is a brilliant idea! I never
thought of it. It would work great for truck trailer roof patches!
Tim "wishing I'd some extra blank decal sheets" O'Connor
Many hobby shops have sale bins with solid color decal sheets for $0.99 or
so, and if you go to an IPMS plastic model show and swap meet you can
usually find people selling decals for cheap.

KL


Barrybennetttoo@...
 

All this discussion by various of you misses one significant point.

The repaired body panels overlap the patch panels at the bottom, as the
patches are inserted UNDER the repaired body panel, not attached over them.
Consequently, the panel edge faces DOWN, using decal patches etc would give
the effect of them facing UP.

To get the correct effect using decal paper etc you would have to decal the
body panel leaving the repair patch undecalled.

I just draw a fine line with a pencil, take a sharp blade and straight edge
and cut a fine line with the blade angled away from the bottom of the car
side. This causes a raised edge at the bottom of the panel which after
painting and weathering gives the impression of the overlapping panel edge.

Barry Bennett
Coventry, England


jerryglow2
 

I agree with Barry's recommendation. If Greg Martin and others who followed his advice for simulating weld seams works, this should too.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Barrybennetttoo@... wrote:

All this discussion by various of you misses one significant point.

The repaired body panels overlap the patch panels at the bottom, as the
patches are inserted UNDER the repaired body panel, not attached over them.
Consequently, the panel edge faces DOWN, using decal patches etc would give
the effect of them facing UP.

To get the correct effect using decal paper etc you would have to decal the
body panel leaving the repair patch undecalled.

I just draw a fine line with a pencil, take a sharp blade and straight edge
and cut a fine line with the blade angled away from the bottom of the car
side. This causes a raised edge at the bottom of the panel which after
painting and weathering gives the impression of the overlapping panel edge.

Barry Bennett
Coventry, England







Bruce Smith
 

Jerry, Barry,

I do not know about other railroad's practices, but patch panels on the
PRR's cars were most definitely NOT applied under the regular side
panels. They were applied over the existing panels and stood proud of
those panels. Yes, I realize that this creates a ledge which can catch
water, but that is the way it was done. So at least for my PRR cars,
the decal/foil approach is absolutely appropriate and in my experience
creates a slightly more realistic look than the pencil line.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

<jerryglow@comcast.net> 12/24/11 8:00 AM >>>
I agree with Barry's recommendation. If Greg Martin and others who
followed his advice for simulating weld seams works, this should too.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Barrybennetttoo@... wrote:

All this discussion by various of you misses one significant point.

The repaired body panels overlap the patch panels at the bottom, as
the
patches are inserted UNDER the repaired body panel, not attached over
them.
Consequently, the panel edge faces DOWN, using decal patches etc
would give
the effect of them facing UP.

To get the correct effect using decal paper etc you would have to
decal the
body panel leaving the repair patch undecalled.

I just draw a fine line with a pencil, take a sharp blade and straight
edge
and cut a fine line with the blade angled away from the bottom of the
car
side. This causes a raised edge at the bottom of the panel which
after
painting and weathering gives the impression of the overlapping panel
edge.

Barry Bennett
Coventry, England









------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Ray Breyer
 

Jerry, Barry, Bruce and list,

Please be careful with any of this information, especially once it gets into the archives. It's wrong.

More specifically, it's INACCURATE.

The Pennsy certainly DID put their patch panels under the existing side sheets.........about half the time, on X29's only. The one body "preserved" in North Judson, IN has them this way. I also have a great wreck photo from the Baltimore Sun collection (online; Flickr) showing an X25 with a patch panel done this way. HOWEVER, I also have a lot of photos of X29's with the patch panels on TOP of the side sheets, and it appears that ALL of the X31's were also done this way.

I spot checked other roads that had 1923 ARA boxcars: all of them patched the rotting car sides with the patch on TOP. The NYC only patched this way, even on their large fleet of USRA steel boxcars. About the only other car that I found that got patches UNDER the side sheets were some B&O M-15's.

It took me less that half an hour plowing through my digitized image collection to find all of this out.


Happy modeling!

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


________________________________
From: Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@auburn.edu>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Patch panels, was: In praise of 0.005 styrene

Jerry, Barry,

I do not know about other railroad's practices, but patch panels on the
PRR's cars were most definitely NOT applied under the regular side
panels.  They were applied over the existing panels and stood proud of
those panels. Yes, I realize that this creates a ledge which can catch
water, but that is the way it was done.  So at least for my PRR cars,
the decal/foil approach is absolutely appropriate and in my experience
creates a slightly more realistic look than the pencil line.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

<jerryglow@comcast.net> 12/24/11 8:00 AM >>>
I agree with Barry's recommendation. If Greg Martin and others who
followed his advice for simulating weld seams works, this should too.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Barrybennetttoo@... wrote:

All this discussion by various of you misses one significant point.
 
The repaired body panels overlap the patch panels at the bottom, as
the
patches are inserted UNDER the repaired body panel, not attached  over
them.
Consequently, the panel edge faces DOWN, using decal patches etc
would give
the effect of them facing UP.
 
To get the correct effect using decal paper etc you would have to
decal the
  body panel leaving the repair patch undecalled.
 
I just draw a fine line with a pencil, take a sharp blade and straight
edge
  and cut a fine line with the blade angled away from the bottom of the
car
side.  This causes a raised edge at the bottom of the panel which
after
painting and  weathering gives the impression of the overlapping panel
edge.
 
Barry Bennett
Coventry, England





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Tim O'Connor
 

Jerry

Since I have an extreme close up shot of a repaired B&O M-26 that
shows the horizontal patch clearly OVER THE TOP of the existing panels,
and since I have personally seen many patched freight cars with panels
over existing sides, I just can't agree 100% with what Barry said. On
-some- cars the repair is as he described, but certainly not on all
cars.

Tim O'Connor

I agree with Barry's recommendation. If Greg Martin and others who followed his advice for simulating weld seams works, this should too.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Barrybennetttoo@... wrote:

All this discussion by various of you misses one significant point.

The repaired body panels overlap the patch panels at the bottom, as the
patches are inserted UNDER the repaired body panel, not attached over them.
Consequently, the panel edge faces DOWN, using decal patches etc would give
the effect of them facing UP.

To get the correct effect using decal paper etc you would have to decal the
body panel leaving the repair patch undecalled.

I just draw a fine line with a pencil, take a sharp blade and straight edge
and cut a fine line with the blade angled away from the bottom of the car
side. This causes a raised edge at the bottom of the panel which after
painting and weathering gives the impression of the overlapping panel edge.

Barry Bennett
Coventry, England


Todd Horton
 

I have to agree with Bruce. There's an X29 in Altoona at the museum. The patches were added over the existing car sides. Todd Horton
 
 
From: Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@auburn.edu>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Patch panels, was: In praise of 0.005 styrene


 
Jerry, Barry,

I do not know about other railroad's practices, but patch panels on the
PRR's cars were most definitely NOT applied under the regular side
panels. They were applied over the existing panels and stood proud of
those panels. Yes, I realize that this creates a ledge which can catch
water, but that is the way it was done. So at least for my PRR cars,
the decal/foil approach is absolutely appropriate and in my experience
creates a slightly more realistic look than the pencil line.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

<jerryglow@comcast.net> 12/24/11 8:00 AM >>>
I agree with Barry's recommendation. If Greg Martin and others who
followed his advice for simulating weld seams works, this should too.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Barrybennetttoo@... wrote:

All this discussion by various of you misses one significant point.

The repaired body panels overlap the patch panels at the bottom, as
the
patches are inserted UNDER the repaired body panel, not attached over
them.
Consequently, the panel edge faces DOWN, using decal patches etc
would give
the effect of them facing UP.

To get the correct effect using decal paper etc you would have to
decal the
body panel leaving the repair patch undecalled.

I just draw a fine line with a pencil, take a sharp blade and straight
edge
and cut a fine line with the blade angled away from the bottom of the
car
side. This causes a raised edge at the bottom of the panel which
after
painting and weathering gives the impression of the overlapping panel
edge.

Barry Bennett
Coventry, England






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tim O'Connor
 

Water on the outside of the cars was never an issue. The rusting
of the panels along the sill was the result of the ARA/X29 design
that placed wood directly in contact with steel sides, and when
this wood got wet, it stayed wet (no airflow around it) and corroded
the steel. I suspect when the cars were patched that they also did
something about this design, but we can't see it from the side of
the car.

Tim O'Connor

Jerry, Barry,

I do not know about other railroad's practices, but patch panels on the
PRR's cars were most definitely NOT applied under the regular side
panels. They were applied over the existing panels and stood proud of
those panels. Yes, I realize that this creates a ledge which can catch
water, but that is the way it was done. So at least for my PRR cars,
the decal/foil approach is absolutely appropriate and in my experience
creates a slightly more realistic look than the pencil line.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


jerryglow2
 

either way simulating the line could be done the same way.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Jerry

Since I have an extreme close up shot of a repaired B&O M-26 that
shows the horizontal patch clearly OVER THE TOP of the existing panels,
and since I have personally seen many patched freight cars with panels
over existing sides, I just can't agree 100% with what Barry said. On
-some- cars the repair is as he described, but certainly not on all
cars.

Tim O'Connor




I agree with Barry's recommendation. If Greg Martin and others who followed his advice for simulating weld seams works, this should too.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Barrybennetttoo@ wrote:

All this discussion by various of you misses one significant point.

The repaired body panels overlap the patch panels at the bottom, as the
patches are inserted UNDER the repaired body panel, not attached over them.
Consequently, the panel edge faces DOWN, using decal patches etc would give
the effect of them facing UP.

To get the correct effect using decal paper etc you would have to decal the
body panel leaving the repair patch undecalled.

I just draw a fine line with a pencil, take a sharp blade and straight edge
and cut a fine line with the blade angled away from the bottom of the car
side. This causes a raised edge at the bottom of the panel which after
painting and weathering gives the impression of the overlapping panel edge.

Barry Bennett
Coventry, England


Andy Carlson
 

I have found that the thin, self-adhesive material surrounding peel and stick
postage stamps (Selvage) works well for laminating to styrene. Much thinner than
the Advery self-sticking address labels, but with similar properties. Takes
paint and rivet impressions, also.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Bruce Smith
 

Ray,

2 things...

First, I agree that a number of X29s did have patch panels positions
behind the side sheets, but I am curious as to where you get your 50%.
In my photographic surveys, these are a minority of cars and are almost
exclusively completely riveted repairs.

Second, lumping together people who have expressed opposing viewpoint in
the salutation and then issuing a statement about their information
being wrong certainly creates more confusion than clarity, especially
since you then go on to generally agree that the information I provided
was accurate.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@yahoo.com> 12/24/11 9:02 AM >>>
Jerry, Barry, Bruce and list,

Please be careful with any of this information, especially once it gets
into the archives. It's wrong.

More specifically, it's INACCURATE.

The Pennsy certainly DID put their patch panels under the existing side
sheets.........about half the time, on X29's only. The one body
"preserved" in North Judson, IN has them this way. I also have a great
wreck photo from the Baltimore Sun collection (online; Flickr) showing
an X25 with a patch panel done this way. HOWEVER, I also have a lot of
photos of X29's with the patch panels on TOP of the side sheets, and it
appears that ALL of the X31's were also done this way.

I spot checked other roads that had 1923 ARA boxcars: all of them
patched the rotting car sides with the patch on TOP. The NYC only
patched this way, even on their large fleet of USRA steel boxcars. About
the only other car that I found that got patches UNDER the side sheets
were some B&O M-15's.

It took me less that half an hour plowing through my digitized image
collection to find all of this out.


Happy modeling!

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


________________________________
From: Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@auburn.edu>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Patch panels, was: In praise of 0.005 styrene

Jerry, Barry,

I do not know about other railroad's practices, but patch panels on the
PRR's cars were most definitely NOT applied under the regular side
panels. They were applied over the existing panels and stood proud of
those panels. Yes, I realize that this creates a ledge which can catch
water, but that is the way it was done. So at least for my PRR cars,
the decal/foil approach is absolutely appropriate and in my experience
creates a slightly more realistic look than the pencil line.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

<jerryglow@comcast.net> 12/24/11 8:00 AM >>>
I agree with Barry's recommendation. If Greg Martin and others who
followed his advice for simulating weld seams works, this should too.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Barrybennetttoo@... wrote:

All this discussion by various of you misses one significant point.

The repaired body panels overlap the patch panels at the bottom, as
the
patches are inserted UNDER the repaired body panel, not attached over
them.
Consequently, the panel edge faces DOWN, using decal patches etc
would give
the effect of them facing UP.

To get the correct effect using decal paper etc you would have to
decal the
body panel leaving the repair patch undecalled.

I just draw a fine line with a pencil, take a sharp blade and straight
edge
and cut a fine line with the blade angled away from the bottom of the
car
side. This causes a raised edge at the bottom of the panel which
after
painting and weathering gives the impression of the overlapping panel
edge.

Barry Bennett
Coventry, England









------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links







------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Ray Breyer
 

Hi Bruce!


First, I agree that a number of X29s did have patch panels positions
behind the side sheets, but I am curious as to where you get your 50%. 
Well, to me "about half" isn't QUITE the same as "50 percent", since it's a hedge statement, rather than a definitive quantity. But....

Of the images that I have that are good enough to tell which direction the patch panels were applied, these are the ones that are UNDER the side sheets: 538598, 569356, 571827, 573029, unidentifiable wrecked PCC&StL X25a. The cars with the patches OVER the side panels include: 38482, 9495, 92419, 100305, 100688. That's a 50/50 break. I did notice that the UNDER panels were basically all on riveted cars too, leading me to suspect that they were pre-WWII patches; postwar patches were more often welded (LOTS of welding rigs and trained welders in the workforce after the war!); that would also coincide with postwar railroads taking shortcuts in repairs to 20-odd year old cars (it's faster & easier to slap a patch on top and weld the sucker in place than it is to slide one under and rivet it)

 
Second, lumping together people who have expressed opposing viewpoint in
the salutation and then issuing a statement about their information
being wrong certainly creates more confusion than clarity, especially
since you then go on to generally agree that the information I provided
was accurate.
True, but remember this: you and Ben Hom are basically THE definitive Pennsy freight car references. As such you sort of have to be a bit more careful as to what you say about their equipment, as it's going to be taken by a very large number of people as THE correct answer (heck, I do!). In this one rare case your information was "less than perfect", and that would have really muddied up the waters, especially since other well respected individuals were giving information counter to yours. Not that it matters here a whole lot, since virtually everyone on this list is here for modeling information, not scholarly MCBA minutiae. But coupled with Barry's modeling technique things REALLY got confused, which is why I decided to look through my files in the first place.

Ultimately, the correct answer is always: study and model from the photographs. In the case of patched cars from any railroad, find a decent photo from your time period, study it, and replicate the patches for ONE MODEL exactly, no matter if the car has them over, under, or woven!

Regards, and Merry Christmas!

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


________________________________
From: Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@auburn.edu>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Patch panels, was: In praise of 0.005 styrene

Ray,

2 things...

First, I agree that a number of X29s did have patch panels positions
behind the side sheets, but I am curious as to where you get your 50%.
In my photographic surveys, these are a minority of cars and are almost
exclusively completely riveted repairs.

Second, lumping together people who have expressed opposing viewpoint in
the salutation and then issuing a statement about their information
being wrong certainly creates more confusion than clarity, especially
since you then go on to generally agree that the information I provided
was accurate.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]