Car door sealing - was True Line new "Fowler" pictures


Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Eric" <eric@...> wrote:

Tim,

Here are a couple of circa 1925 images taken along the Wheeling & Lake Erie in Canton, Ohio. These images are from the W&LE archives in the Michael Schwartz Library of Cleveland State University Library in Cleveland, Ohio. Two Canadian Pacific Fowler box cars and an ERIE double-sheathed box car with an indestructible-type of end are spotted along a siding just north of the W&LE depot. Click on the images for the full version.

This view looks north:
http://www.hansmanns.org/images/canton_industry_1.JPG

This view is pointed south:
http://www.hansmanns.org/images/canton_industry_2.JPG

Does anyone have in-service numbers for the CP and CN Fower fleet in the mid-1950s? The Westerfield Models site has details that note 75,000 of the six-foot wide door were built, while the Canadian Pacific built 33,000 of the five-foot wide door versions. These numbers do not include stock cars or 40-foot versions of the car design.

I cannot thank you enough for posting these two photos, Eric, particularly the view looking northward. A long interest in what are more properly called Dominion Cars, less than 10% of the 75,000 +- of which were construced having used the Fowler patent, not withstanding, what REALLY interests me in the photo is the car door seemingly sealed with some sort of heavy paper. Presumedly this was to keep the lading as clean as possible but other than newsprint what might the lading have been???? I have seen examples of this use of what I presume was a heavy paper for years but never in a photo good enough to post and raise question about. Thus the value of this one to me. In all the carloading manuals I have looked at, or have
acquired, over the years not one bit of documentation of this practice has been found. Blocking for pipes, tractors and such I have plenty of but not doors sealed with paper in this fashion. What do we
(collectively) really know about the practice.

As an aside for both you and Tim O'Connor it must be pointed out
that Armand Premo's postings on the Dominion cars are absolutely correct in all respects. My own photos, however, indicate that the
Dominion cars were much more prevalent on CNR-CV routings through New England by 1950 than on CPR routings with the possible exception of the CPR "Short Line" thorugh Maine. Given a moment after New Year's Day I will try to find a few car numbers for you and leave it to the two of you to look up car groups for accuracy of door widths, end construction and such. A reminder may be in order for this. But that cars were far more common than most seem to realize, with such cars being owned by both the Erie and NC&StL as well.

Happy New Year, Don Valentine


Eric Hansmann
 

I'm glad the images come in handy for you Don.

The cars are spotted at a building that was a brewery. If you scroll up on the larger image you can see the bricks spell out some brewing words. Of course, the image was taken in 1925 so they weren't brewing the usual stuff. Possibly they were making a malt extract there or maybe the facility was converted to a milling operation. I had a PDF of lineside W&LE industries inventoried during a 1940 inspection trip, but I can't seem to find it right now. I suspect the CP cars have shipped a specialized grain to Canton, Ohio.

BTW, I have another period W&LE image with an ERIE Dominion car in the background. It seems to have a shallow fishbelly sidesill, which I assume was applied to strengthen the car.

Eric


Eric Hansmann
New Paltz, NY

--- In STMFC@..., "Don" <riverman_vt@...> wrote:
I cannot thank you enough for posting these two photos, Eric, particularly the view looking northward. A long interest in what are more properly called Dominion Cars, less than 10% of the 75,000 +- of which were construced having used the Fowler patent, not withstanding, what REALLY interests me in the photo is the car door seemingly sealed with some sort of heavy paper. Presumedly this was to keep the lading as clean as possible but other than newsprint what might the lading have been???? I have seen examples of this use of what I presume was a heavy paper for years but never in a photo good enough to post and raise question about. Thus the value of this one to me. In all the carloading manuals I have looked at, or have
acquired, over the years not one bit of documentation of this practice has been found. Blocking for pipes, tractors and such I have plenty of but not doors sealed with paper in this fashion. What do we
(collectively) really know about the practice.

As an aside for both you and Tim O'Connor it must be pointed out
that Armand Premo's postings on the Dominion cars are absolutely correct in all respects. My own photos, however, indicate that the
Dominion cars were much more prevalent on CNR-CV routings through New England by 1950 than on CPR routings with the possible exception of the CPR "Short Line" thorugh Maine. Given a moment after New Year's Day I will try to find a few car numbers for you and leave it to the two of you to look up car groups for accuracy of door widths, end construction and such. A reminder may be in order for this. But that cars were far more common than most seem to realize, with such cars being owned by both the Erie and NC&StL as well.

Happy New Year, Don Valentine


cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

Based on several meetings with the president of Iron City brewery in Pittsburgh, back in the '60s, I learned many facilities (IC included) continued to brew, but extracted the alcohol, leaving legal "near beer" and selling the left over alcohol for medical or medicinal uses. Those with the right connections could purchase both components and inject the alcohol back into the bottles through the corks. They also made root beer, since the facilities were adaptable. None-the-less, many breweries folded in that era.

 
CJ Riley
Bainbridge Island WA


________________________________
From: Eric <eric@...>

  The cars are spotted at a building that was a brewery. If you scroll up on the larger image you can see the bricks spell out some brewing words. Of course, the image was taken in 1925 so they weren't brewing the usual stuff. Possibly they were making a malt extract there or maybe the facility was converted to a milling operation.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tim O'Connor
 

You should watch the PBS show on Prohibition. Very interesting. Some
breweries continued to operate throughout in the US. Seattle was quite
famous for its gentlemanly bootleggers and vast consumption of spirits.
I think imports from Canada probably increased significantly in this
era, albeit not by box car...

Tim O'

Based on several meetings with the president of Iron City brewery in Pittsburgh, back in the '60s, I learned many facilities (IC included) continued to brew, but extracted the alcohol, leaving legal "near beer" and selling the left over alcohol for medical or medicinal uses. Those with the right connections could purchase both components and inject the alcohol back into the bottles through the corks. They also made root beer, since the facilities were adaptable. None-the-less, many breweries folded in that era.

CJ Riley
Bainbridge Island WA


________________________________
From: Eric <eric@...>

The cars are spotted at a building that was a brewery. If you scroll up on the larger image you can see the bricks spell out some brewing words. Of course, the image was taken in 1925 so they weren't brewing the usual stuff. Possibly they were making a malt extract there or maybe the facility was converted to a milling operation.


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
You should watch the PBS show on Prohibition. Very interesting . . . I think imports from Canada probably increased significantly in this era, albeit not by box car...
Tim, you might like the detailed history book on Prohibition, "Last Call." It explains the dominant scam for those Canadian imports: waybill them as sealed freight cars or highway trucks for delivery in Mexico (thus getting them admitted to the U.S. "for transit only"), then "arranging" certificates of delivery in Mexico to hand over to the U.S. authorities--meanwhile the cargo could be delivered wherever desired. This continued until the late 1920s.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Douglas Harding
 

Don, wasn't paper put around doors that like for loads like bulk flour? Ie
loads that could not be contaiminated.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Don" <riverman_vt@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., "Eric" <eric@> wrote:
This view looks north:
http://www.hansmanns.org/images/canton_industry_1.JPG

...what REALLY interests me in the photo is the car door seemingly sealed with some sort of heavy paper. Presumedly this was to keep the lading as clean as possible but other than newsprint what might the lading have been???? I have seen examples of this use of what I presume was a heavy paper for years but never in a photo good enough to post and raise question about. Thus the value of this one to me. In all the carloading manuals I have looked at, or have
acquired, over the years not one bit of documentation of this practice has been found. Blocking for pipes, tractors and such I have plenty of but not doors sealed with paper in this fashion. What do we
(collectively) really know about the practice.
I would have mentioned flour, either bulk or bagged, but since it's been pointed out that the car is at a brewery, most likely malted grain.

Dennis


Guy Wilber
 

Don wrote:

"...what REALLY interests me in the photo is the car door seemingly sealed with some sort of heavy paper. Presumedly this was to keep the lading as clean as possible but other than newsprint what might the lading have been???? I have seen examples of this use of what I presume was a heavy paper for years but never in a photo good enough to post and raise question about. Thus the value of this one to me. In all the carloading manuals I have looked at, or have acquired, over the years not one bit of documentation of this practice has been found. Blocking for pipes, tractors and such I have plenty of but not doors sealed with paper in this fashion. What do we (collectively) really know about the practice.

Don,

You are relying on the Open Top Loading Manuals, the instructions for sealing (battening) doors were contained within the Closed Car Manuals or separate pamphlets published by the ARA and AAR's Transportation Division.

The sealing of doors was part of several loading pamphlets including; bagged commodities, newsprint and commodities shipped in fiberboard containers. The first of these was issued in 1925.

The information was also offered within Pamphlet 10. - Car Doors--Battening, as Protection Against Damage by Weather, Cinders, Etc., first issued in 1937 with a revision in 1941.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada