Stock car reloading


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Don Valentine wrote:
Your comment raises and interesting point, Bruce, which I have not considered before. The rules for unloading and resting livestock are fairly well known but I do not recall having seen anything on one aspect of such mocvements. Is there anything that dictates what cars the stock must be reloaded into??? In this case, could the CN stock car be unloaded for a rest stop, returned home empty and the stock be reloaded into another stock car to continue their trip????
We've been told in previous discussions that it was very COMMON to reload stock into the cars of the home road doing the resting, and send the foreign empties home. Either way, the reloading cars had to be well CLEANED and with fresh bedding. I would think this might be especially commonplace with Canadian empties in the U.S., unless there was a local car shortage.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

That would make a very interesting addition to a model railroad
layout, a stock layover area in a large classification yard where
foreign cars come in loaded, and leave empty, and home road stock
cars do the opposite...

Tim O'Connor

We've been told in previous discussions that it was very COMMON
to reload stock into the cars of the home road doing the resting, and
send the foreign empties home. Either way, the reloading cars had to
be well CLEANED and with fresh bedding. I would think this might be
especially commonplace with Canadian empties in the U.S., unless there
was a local car shortage.

Tony Thompson


Steve SANDIFER
 

The only detailed information I have on shipping out sheep after resting comes from 1939, Purcell, OK.
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm

Normally stock was reloaded into the same car they arrived in. The major exception was stock that arrived in foreign cars. 82 foreign cars were unloaded at Purcell and 51 of those were sent home empty as the stock was transferred to ATSF cars. In at least one case, two TNO cars of sheep were reloaded into one double deck ATSF car. In another case, a TNO car was unloaded and the stock moved to ATSF, but they evidently ran out of ATSF cars or needed to forward the TNO to a specific place so that a later shipment went out in the TNO car.


Railroad Loads in Loads out
ATSF 199 250
ESLJ 1 0
MP 4 4
PRR 1 1
SP 29 9
TNO 29 9
TP 18 8

______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading



Don Valentine wrote:
> Your comment raises and interesting point, Bruce, which I have not
> considered before. The rules for unloading and resting livestock are
> fairly well known but I do not recall having seen anything on one
> aspect of such mocvements. Is there anything that dictates what cars
> the stock must be reloaded into??? In this case, could the CN stock
> car be unloaded for a rest stop, returned home empty and the stock
> be reloaded into another stock car to continue their trip????

We've been told in previous discussions that it was very COMMON
to reload stock into the cars of the home road doing the resting, and
send the foreign empties home. Either way, the reloading cars had to
be well CLEANED and with fresh bedding. I would think this might be
especially commonplace with Canadian empties in the U.S., unless there
was a local car shortage.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Armand Premo
 

Canadian Stock cars were also used to carry hay to areas with draught conditions.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Sandifer
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading



The only detailed information I have on shipping out sheep after resting comes from 1939, Purcell, OK.
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm

Normally stock was reloaded into the same car they arrived in. The major exception was stock that arrived in foreign cars. 82 foreign cars were unloaded at Purcell and 51 of those were sent home empty as the stock was transferred to ATSF cars. In at least one case, two TNO cars of sheep were reloaded into one double deck ATSF car. In another case, a TNO car was unloaded and the stock moved to ATSF, but they evidently ran out of ATSF cars or needed to forward the TNO to a specific place so that a later shipment went out in the TNO car.

Railroad Loads in Loads out
ATSF 199 250
ESLJ 1 0
MP 4 4
PRR 1 1
SP 29 9
TNO 29 9
TP 18 8

______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

Don Valentine wrote:
> Your comment raises and interesting point, Bruce, which I have not
> considered before. The rules for unloading and resting livestock are
> fairly well known but I do not recall having seen anything on one
> aspect of such mocvements. Is there anything that dictates what cars
> the stock must be reloaded into??? In this case, could the CN stock
> car be unloaded for a rest stop, returned home empty and the stock
> be reloaded into another stock car to continue their trip????

We've been told in previous discussions that it was very COMMON
to reload stock into the cars of the home road doing the resting, and
send the foreign empties home. Either way, the reloading cars had to
be well CLEANED and with fresh bedding. I would think this might be
especially commonplace with Canadian empties in the U.S., unless there
was a local car shortage.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Aley, Jeff A
 

Hi Steve,

Is it likely that the operation that you describe (stock in foreign cars transloaded to home-road cars) was due to a special car service order? Or is it more likely that what you describe was "typical"?

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Steve Sandifer
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 6:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading



The only detailed information I have on shipping out sheep after resting comes from 1939, Purcell, OK.
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm

Normally stock was reloaded into the same car they arrived in. The major exception was stock that arrived in foreign cars. 82 foreign cars were unloaded at Purcell and 51 of those were sent home empty as the stock was transferred to ATSF cars. In at least one case, two TNO cars of sheep were reloaded into one double deck ATSF car. In another case, a TNO car was unloaded and the stock moved to ATSF, but they evidently ran out of ATSF cars or needed to forward the TNO to a specific place so that a later shipment went out in the TNO car.

Railroad Loads in Loads out
ATSF 199 250
ESLJ 1 0
MP 4 4
PRR 1 1
SP 29 9
TNO 29 9
TP 18 8

______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...<mailto:steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net>
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

Don Valentine wrote:
Your comment raises and interesting point, Bruce, which I have not
considered before. The rules for unloading and resting livestock are
fairly well known but I do not recall having seen anything on one
aspect of such mocvements. Is there anything that dictates what cars
the stock must be reloaded into??? In this case, could the CN stock
car be unloaded for a rest stop, returned home empty and the stock
be reloaded into another stock car to continue their trip????
We've been told in previous discussions that it was very COMMON
to reload stock into the cars of the home road doing the resting, and
send the foreign empties home. Either way, the reloading cars had to
be well CLEANED and with fresh bedding. I would think this might be
especially commonplace with Canadian empties in the U.S., unless there
was a local car shortage.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

Steve

Were some of these "resting places" for stock also used by
stock brokers to auction the animals? Obviously large cities
like Denver, Kansas City, Omaha, Chicago, etc had large stock
markets for the livestock trade, but could this also have
been done at smaller locations? I'm asking because if the
animals were reloaded into another car, could it be because
the load was reconsigned and given a new waybill?

Tim O'Connor

The only detailed information I have on shipping out sheep after resting comes from 1939, Purcell, OK.
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm

Normally stock was reloaded into the same car they arrived in. The major exception was stock that arrived in foreign cars. 82 foreign cars were unloaded at Purcell and 51 of those were sent home empty as the stock was transferred to ATSF cars. In at least one case, two TNO cars of sheep were reloaded into one double deck ATSF car. In another case, a TNO car was unloaded and the stock moved to ATSF, but they evidently ran out of ATSF cars or needed to forward the TNO to a specific place so that a later shipment went out in the TNO car.

Railroad Loads in Loads out
ATSF 199 250
ESLJ 1 0
MP 4 4
PRR 1 1
SP 29 9
TNO 29 9
TP 18 8

J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer


Steve SANDIFER
 

I think it was typical to transfer stock to a home road car if they were available. There is nothing on the paperwork to indicate special instructions.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Aley, Jeff A
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 12:45 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading



Hi Steve,

Is it likely that the operation that you describe (stock in foreign cars transloaded to home-road cars) was due to a special car service order? Or is it more likely that what you describe was "typical"?

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Steve Sandifer
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 6:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

The only detailed information I have on shipping out sheep after resting comes from 1939, Purcell, OK.
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm

Normally stock was reloaded into the same car they arrived in. The major exception was stock that arrived in foreign cars. 82 foreign cars were unloaded at Purcell and 51 of those were sent home empty as the stock was transferred to ATSF cars. In at least one case, two TNO cars of sheep were reloaded into one double deck ATSF car. In another case, a TNO car was unloaded and the stock moved to ATSF, but they evidently ran out of ATSF cars or needed to forward the TNO to a specific place so that a later shipment went out in the TNO car.

Railroad Loads in Loads out
ATSF 199 250
ESLJ 1 0
MP 4 4
PRR 1 1
SP 29 9
TNO 29 9
TP 18 8

______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...<mailto:steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net>
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

Don Valentine wrote:
> Your comment raises and interesting point, Bruce, which I have not
> considered before. The rules for unloading and resting livestock are
> fairly well known but I do not recall having seen anything on one
> aspect of such mocvements. Is there anything that dictates what cars
> the stock must be reloaded into??? In this case, could the CN stock
> car be unloaded for a rest stop, returned home empty and the stock
> be reloaded into another stock car to continue their trip????

We've been told in previous discussions that it was very COMMON
to reload stock into the cars of the home road doing the resting, and
send the foreign empties home. Either way, the reloading cars had to
be well CLEANED and with fresh bedding. I would think this might be
especially commonplace with Canadian empties in the U.S., unless there
was a local car shortage.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history


Greg Martin
 

Changing cars in route for stock doesn't make sense to me as you would have
to create a completely new waybill for the move. This would be an agents
nightmare. I would think the stock would be loaded right back into the same
car once it was cleaned and serviced. We may not see stock as precious
cargo but the consignee sure would and certainly the railroads did until a
point in time.

Greg

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean

In a message dated 12/31/2011 2:53:19 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
steve.sandifer@... writes:




I think it was typical to transfer stock to a home road car if they were
available. There is nothing on the paperwork to indicate special
instructions.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:_steve.sandifer@... (mailto:steve.sandifer@...)
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Aley, Jeff A
To: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 12:45 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

Hi Steve,

Is it likely that the operation that you describe (stock in foreign cars
transloaded to home-road cars) was due to a special car service order? Or is
it more likely that what you describe was "typical"?

Regards,

-Jeff

From: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
[mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ] On Behalf Of Steve
Sandifer
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 6:48 PM
To: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

The only detailed information I have on shipping out sheep after resting
comes from 1939, Purcell, OK.
_http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm_
(http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm)

Normally stock was reloaded into the same car they arrived in. The major
exception was stock that arrived in foreign cars. 82 foreign cars were
unloaded at Purcell and 51 of those were sent home empty as the stock was
transferred to ATSF cars. In at least one case, two TNO cars of sheep were
reloaded into one double deck ATSF car. In another case, a TNO car was unloaded
and the stock moved to ATSF, but they evidently ran out of ATSF cars or
needed to forward the TNO to a specific place so that a later shipment went out
in the TNO car.

Railroad Loads in Loads out
ATSF 199 250
ESLJ 1 0
MP 4 4
PRR 1 1
SP 29 9
TNO 29 9
TP 18 8

______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:_steve.sandifer@... (mailto:steve.sandifer@...)
<mailto:steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net>
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

Don Valentine wrote:
Your comment raises and interesting point, Bruce, which I have not
considered before. The rules for unloading and resting livestock are
fairly well known but I do not recall having seen anything on one
aspect of such mocvements. Is there anything that dictates what cars
the stock must be reloaded into??? In this case, could the CN stock
car be unloaded for a rest stop, returned home empty and the stock
be reloaded into another stock car to continue their trip????
We've been told in previous discussions that it was very COMMON
to reload stock into the cars of the home road doing the resting, and
send the foreign empties home. Either way, the reloading cars had to
be well CLEANED and with fresh bedding. I would think this might be
especially commonplace with Canadian empties in the U.S., unless there
was a local car shortage.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, _thompson@...
(mailto:thompson@...) <mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Greg Martin wrote:
Changing cars in route for stock doesn't make sense to me as you would have to create a completely new waybill for the move. This would be an agents
nightmare.
Not true at all. Waybills were often altered and corrected. Jerry Stewart, who worked for years as a car clerk, stated to me that only a minority of waybills, probably less than a fourth, went to destination uncorrected or unchanged. The agent only has to insert the new reporting marks and number. A similar process occurred when perishable shipments were diverted: the waybill instructions were simply added to or changed. No need for a new waybill. I have a few in my collection with additions of various kinds typed onto the bill.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Earlier in this thread, someone said that we'd discussed this and had
determined that the usual procedure was to transfer stock car loads to a
home road car, and send the off-line car back home empty.



That's odd, because my recollection was that at the conclusion of that
thread, which I followed to the end because I'm interested in freight car
movements more than interested in stock particularly, we had come to the
opposite conclusion: As Greg says below, that the stock were moved out of
the car, fed and watered and rested, and meanwhile the car was cleaned and
new bedding provided, after which the stock were reloaded into the SAME car
and sent onwards.



Schuyler

Changing cars in route for stock doesn't make sense to me as you would have
to create a completely new waybill for the move. This would be an agents
nightmare. I would think the stock would be loaded right back into the same
car once it was cleaned and serviced. We may not see stock as precious
cargo but the consignee sure would and certainly the railroads did until a
point in time.

Greg

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean

In a message dated 12/31/2011 2:53:19 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
steve.sandifer@... <mailto:steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net>
writes:

I think it was typical to transfer stock to a home road car if they were
available. There is nothing on the paperwork to indicate special
instructions.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:_steve.sandifer@...
<mailto:_steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net> _
(mailto:steve.sandifer@... <mailto:steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net>
)
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Aley, Jeff A
To: _STMFC@... <mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> _
(mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> )
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 12:45 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

Hi Steve,

Is it likely that the operation that you describe (stock in foreign cars
transloaded to home-road cars) was due to a special car service order? Or is

it more likely that what you describe was "typical"?

Regards,

-Jeff

From: _STMFC@... <mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> _
(mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> )
[mailto:_STMFC@... <mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> _
(mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ) ] On Behalf
Of Steve
Sandifer
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 6:48 PM
To: _STMFC@... <mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> _
(mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> )
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

The only detailed information I have on shipping out sheep after resting
comes from 1939, Purcell, OK.
_http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm_
(http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm)

Normally stock was reloaded into the same car they arrived in. The major
exception was stock that arrived in foreign cars. 82 foreign cars were
unloaded at Purcell and 51 of those were sent home empty as the stock was
transferred to ATSF cars. In at least one case, two TNO cars of sheep were
reloaded into one double deck ATSF car. In another case, a TNO car was
unloaded
and the stock moved to ATSF, but they evidently ran out of ATSF cars or
needed to forward the TNO to a specific place so that a later shipment went
out
in the TNO car.

Railroad Loads in Loads out
ATSF 199 250
ESLJ 1 0
MP 4 4
PRR 1 1
SP 29 9
TNO 29 9
TP 18 8

______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:_steve.sandifer@...
<mailto:_steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net> _
(mailto:steve.sandifer@... <mailto:steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net>
)
<mailto:steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net>
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: _STMFC@... <mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> _
(mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

Don Valentine wrote:
Your comment raises and interesting point, Bruce, which I have not
considered before. The rules for unloading and resting livestock are
fairly well known but I do not recall having seen anything on one
aspect of such mocvements. Is there anything that dictates what cars
the stock must be reloaded into??? In this case, could the CN stock
car be unloaded for a rest stop, returned home empty and the stock
be reloaded into another stock car to continue their trip????
We've been told in previous discussions that it was very COMMON
to reload stock into the cars of the home road doing the resting, and
send the foreign empties home. Either way, the reloading cars had to
be well CLEANED and with fresh bedding. I would think this might be
especially commonplace with Canadian empties in the U.S., unless there
was a local car shortage.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, _thompson@...
<mailto:_thompson%40signaturepress.com> _
(mailto:thompson@... <mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> )
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history
















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Don Strack
 

To add to the discussion, back in 1989, a co-worker overheard me
talking about my interest in railroads, and shared the following.

(Information from Glen D. Lowe, July 12, 1989. Glen worked in the Salt
Lake Union Stockyards during the summers of 1952 and 1953.)

Glen's uncle Joe Magelby, with his son "Bud" (real name Gale?) had a
contract for cleaning and sanding of stock cars at Salt Lake Union
Stockyards until the stockyards were closed in 1976. Then Bud Magelby
moved to Las Vegas and took the contract for watering at Dry Lake,
Nevada.

- 15 to 20 cars were sanded per day.
- One to three cars per day were cleaned and disinfected.
- Two to three inches of sand was added each time until six to eight
inches had accumulated, then the car was cleaned.
- Two tracks were used as sand tracks, with piles of sand between them
- Most cars were two decks, the three deck cars were just starting to be used

Also, Glen's dad worked for UP at Salt Lake City as a hostler helper
from about 1941/1942 to his death in 1962.

Don Strack
http://utahrails.net/


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Earlier in this thread, someone said that we'd discussed this and had determined that the usual procedure was to transfer stock car loads to a home road car, and send the off-line car back home empty.
The prototype examples appeared to show that on Santa Fe, home road cars were substituted for foreigns for onward movements, and on UP the original cars were used for onward movements. I would conclude that it seems to depend on the particular railroad.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


dmamfahr <mamfahr@...>
 

Earlier in this thread, someone said that we'd discussed this and had determined that the usual procedure was to transfer stock car loads to a home road car, and send the off-line car back home empty.
That's odd, because my recollection was that at the conclusion of that thread ... we had come to the opposite conclusion:

Hello all,

I didn't review the previous discussion on this topic, but the material presented this time around has shown that practices varied from place to place, year to year.

I commented that I'd noticed that most stock shipments on the UP in the '40s & '50s continued on through Nebraska & Wyoming reload points in the same cars (they didn't tend to change to home-road cars).

Doug mentioned that most cars arriving at resting locations along the CNW & the Q in Illinois were turned back west.

A sample of NYC train lists from 1956 shows a very high % of "western road" stock cars vs. a relatively small % of NYC cars, indicating that the western cars did (in that month at least...) run through Illinois/Chicago onto eastern roads.

The info covering the resting / reloading operation in OK in 1939 showed that more than 1/2 of shipments were transferred from foreign cars into home road cars after rest.

As with most operational issues in railroading, it doesn't seem that were going to arrive at a single "unified theory" here that will cover all stock loading / reloading practices at all locations in all years. I can tell you from my own experiences working as a car distributor (grain equipment in the 1980s) that fleet management practices vary quite often, driven by issues such as: type and characteristics of product being shipped, availability of cars, demand for cars, condition of home & foreign cars, suitability of certain cartypes, cost of cars, per-diem cost / earnings of cars, shipment movement patterns (% by direction), car cycle times to each destination, unloading tendencies at destination, etc. Often the supply of cars is customer-specific, even for something as generic as grain, based upon each customer's preferences and tendencies.

I imagine that livestock cars would have been managed in a similar manner in the steam era, with practices at each particular location changing month-to-month, even week-to-week at times, based upon similar issues. Car distributors would have been managing things on each RR, trying to optimize things as much as possible, but on top of that there was also the issue of decentralized management in those days...

In the steam era, we need to keep in mind that most things were managed at the "local" / "divisional" level rather than at the "system" level as they tend to be in the modern era. In the old days, agents at many stations could "squirrel away" empty cars to supply their local customers needs. They could grab the better cars and send the cruddy ones on down the line. This to keep the local customers - the guys they saw face-to-face each day - happy.

As you'd guess, in an environment like that you'd see practices differing significantly from place to place, even on the same RR around the same time, and especially on different RRs in different years. I think this probably accounts for at least some of the (seemingly) contradictory information we've been seeing on the livestock re-loading topic.

Take care,

Mark


Tim O'Connor
 

It could also depend on the season, locality, and year (e.g. was
there a drought? was there a car shortage on the east coast?) Stock
car supply was notoriously too much, and then too little, and too
much again, thanks to the highly seasonal traffic peaks and troughs.

Tim O'

The prototype examples appeared to show that on Santa Fe, home
road cars were substituted for foreigns for onward movements, and on
UP the original cars were used for onward movements. I would conclude
that it seems to depend on the particular railroad.
Tony Thompson


lstt100
 

Waybills could have many notations and changes made to them, including weighing, diversion, icing, new instructions, rates, special requests etc....however, when lading was transfered from one car to another car a new waybill was required to be issued at the transfering location. Thus, if the stock was reloaded into a different car, it would have created a "new" waybill move.

Shippers could, and did specify, on waybill, when feeding and watering occured enroute, that carloads could not be mixed, in pens and if it was a double deck car, could not have the 2 deck intermixed while feeding and watering occured.

Livestock shippers could, apply their own bedding/sanding, request the railroad to provide the service, or accept the bedding that was already in the car, thus it was possible to use a car with old bedding, however the railroad had to abide by whatever bedding request was made by the shipper.

I've looked through almost 800 livestock waybills in my collection the last few days that date from 1954 to 1976 and can find none that shows loading being transfered from one car to another. These are from RI, UP, CBQ, MILW, and GN shipping locations and most are from feeding and watering locations or destination terminals and none have waybill references, which were required when lading was transfered to another car. Changing the initials and number of equipment on a revenue waybill was frowned upon. I never did it and I do not have any waybills in my collection that show the car initial and number crossed out on loaded waybill movements.

Post dating this list, I did unload and reload livestock on the BN from 1973 thru 1978 and I only recall one instance when I had a bad order car and had to request a new car for reloading when livestock was being rested enroute.

Livestock could be shipped on transit rates and it was possible when this occured that a car could be unloaded at a feedlot from one car and reloaded into a different car. If this occured there would have been a notation on the waybill showing the previous waybill reference.

Dan Holbrook


Greg Martin
 

Tony writes in reply:


"Not true at all. Waybills were often altered and corrected. Jerry
Stewart, who worked for years as a car clerk, stated to me that only a minority of
waybills, probably less than a fourth, went to destination uncorrected or
unchanged. The agent only has to insert the
new reporting marks and number. A similar process occurred when perishable
shipments were diverted: the waybill instructions were simply added to or
changed. No need for a new waybill. I have a few in my collection with
additions of various kinds typed onto the bill."


I agree completely with what Tony is saying regarding waybills changing,
that I have no issue with, diversions and reconsignments are a fairly common
and straightforward process. Commodities don't change, car numbers don't
change, ~ destination do change, legal owners change, you ass section 7,
that is simple and common. You're allowed a specific amount before if begins
to even cost you money. However; it is my experience that once a car number
assigned to a waybill it is not easily changed, especially if the car is
pulled from it's origin spot, not saying it can't be done. If you find a
friendly clerk ~ you might ~ get it done without "busting" the bill that person
may correct it for you and if you're lucky, real lucky, you won't get a
charge...

It would be my understanding that once the car number was changed on a
revenue move would be viewed as complete; moving the same commodity on another
car would constitute a new revenue move, thus a new waybill to move the
commodity. Suspending the waybill at that point doesn't seem to make sense.
This is very much like "milling in transit" (in reverse) with the grain
shipments you drop off grain~ reload flour~ same car, same waybill, simply a
commodity exchange. Key here is same car ~ same waybill... AND this intend
was specified ON THE ORIGINAL waybill prior to arrival at destination. This
way the revenue stream is all very well understood in the billing. Remember
in our era much of the commodities moving were doing so over bridge routes
and revenue sharing was involved so the more transparent the intend the
better for all.

There are provisions on all waybills, even in today's highly automated
rail~world, to stop cars for various reasons; trying to change a car number on
a waybilled shipment causes a lot of grief if the car has moved, if it has
not "bust" the bill and start over. I would love to talk to some retired
revenue clerk from the accounting department on this subjects and a couple
of more. Suspended bills do exist, but to what extent in our modeling era I
would love to discover from a retired billing clerk from say, St. Paul or
San Francisco...

Greg Martin


Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dan Holbrook wrote:
Waybills could have many notations and changes made to them, including weighing, diversion, icing, new instructions, rates, special requests etc....however, when lading was transfered from one car to another car a new waybill was required to be issued at the transfering location. Thus, if the stock was reloaded into a different car, it would have created a "new" waybill move.
I've looked through almost 800 livestock waybills in my collection the last few days that date from 1954 to 1976 and can find none that shows loading being transfered from one car to another. These are from RI, UP, CBQ, MILW, and GN shipping locations and most are from feeding and watering locations or destination terminals and none have waybill references, which were required when lading was transfered to another car. Changing the initials and number of equipment on a revenue waybill was frowned upon. I never did it and I do not have any waybills in my collection that show the car initial and number crossed out on loaded waybill movements.
Dan is the expert, and I stand corrected.

Livestock could be shipped on transit rates and it was possible when this occured that a car could be unloaded at a feedlot from one car and reloaded into a different car. If this occured there would have been a notation on the waybill showing the previous waybill reference.
I have seen waybills with reference to a previous waybill but none I have seen explained why the change.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Steve SANDIFER
 

You missed some of the thread which stated that updating Waybills was common.

What I do know comes from actual "feeding station" records. Looking at 281 cars loads at Purcell, OK, in Aug-Sept 1939, http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm

82 foreign cars were unloaded at Purcell and 51 of those were sent home empty as the stock was transferred to ATSF cars. In at least one case, two TNO cars of sheep were reloaded into one double deck ATSF car. In another case, a TNO car was unloaded and the stock moved to ATSF, but they evidently ran out of ATSF cars or needed to forward the TNO to a specific place so that a later shipment went out in the TNO car.


______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler Larrabee
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 10:59 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading



Earlier in this thread, someone said that we'd discussed this and had
determined that the usual procedure was to transfer stock car loads to a
home road car, and send the off-line car back home empty.

That's odd, because my recollection was that at the conclusion of that
thread, which I followed to the end because I'm interested in freight car
movements more than interested in stock particularly, we had come to the
opposite conclusion: As Greg says below, that the stock were moved out of
the car, fed and watered and rested, and meanwhile the car was cleaned and
new bedding provided, after which the stock were reloaded into the SAME car
and sent onwards.

Schuyler

Changing cars in route for stock doesn't make sense to me as you would have
to create a completely new waybill for the move. This would be an agents
nightmare. I would think the stock would be loaded right back into the same
car once it was cleaned and serviced. We may not see stock as precious
cargo but the consignee sure would and certainly the railroads did until a
point in time.

Greg

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean

In a message dated 12/31/2011 2:53:19 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
steve.sandifer@... <mailto:steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net>
writes:

I think it was typical to transfer stock to a home road car if they were
available. There is nothing on the paperwork to indicate special
instructions.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:_steve.sandifer@...
<mailto:_steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net> _
(mailto:steve.sandifer@... <mailto:steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net>
)
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Aley, Jeff A
To: _STMFC@... <mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> _
(mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> )
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 12:45 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

Hi Steve,

Is it likely that the operation that you describe (stock in foreign cars
transloaded to home-road cars) was due to a special car service order? Or is

it more likely that what you describe was "typical"?

Regards,

-Jeff

From: _STMFC@... <mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> _
(mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> )
[mailto:_STMFC@... <mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> _
(mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ) ] On Behalf
Of Steve
Sandifer
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 6:48 PM
To: _STMFC@... <mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> _
(mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> )
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

The only detailed information I have on shipping out sheep after resting
comes from 1939, Purcell, OK.
_http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm_
(http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Purcell.htm)

Normally stock was reloaded into the same car they arrived in. The major
exception was stock that arrived in foreign cars. 82 foreign cars were
unloaded at Purcell and 51 of those were sent home empty as the stock was
transferred to ATSF cars. In at least one case, two TNO cars of sheep were
reloaded into one double deck ATSF car. In another case, a TNO car was
unloaded
and the stock moved to ATSF, but they evidently ran out of ATSF cars or
needed to forward the TNO to a specific place so that a later shipment went
out
in the TNO car.

Railroad Loads in Loads out
ATSF 199 250
ESLJ 1 0
MP 4 4
PRR 1 1
SP 29 9
TNO 29 9
TP 18 8

______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:_steve.sandifer@...
<mailto:_steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net> _
(mailto:steve.sandifer@... <mailto:steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net>
)
<mailto:steve.sandifer%40sbcglobal.net>
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: _STMFC@... <mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> _
(mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Stock car reloading

Don Valentine wrote:
> Your comment raises and interesting point, Bruce, which I have not
> considered before. The rules for unloading and resting livestock are
> fairly well known but I do not recall having seen anything on one
> aspect of such mocvements. Is there anything that dictates what cars
> the stock must be reloaded into??? In this case, could the CN stock
> car be unloaded for a rest stop, returned home empty and the stock
> be reloaded into another stock car to continue their trip????

We've been told in previous discussions that it was very COMMON
to reload stock into the cars of the home road doing the resting, and
send the foreign empties home. Either way, the reloading cars had to
be well CLEANED and with fresh bedding. I would think this might be
especially commonplace with Canadian empties in the U.S., unless there
was a local car shortage.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, _thompson@...
<mailto:_thompson%40signaturepress.com> _
(mailto:thompson@... <mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> )
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history









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