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Walthers Troop Sleeper

Paul Hillman
 

I wanted to get a Walthers undec Troop Sleeper but couldn't find one, so I wound up with a blue B&O version, #932-4169.

I want to paint it for the C&EI, in their blue with orange striping.

The questions is; how to remove the lettering without affecting the overall blue paint scheme.

What solvent will remove only the lettering? Or, will the whole car have to be paint-removed?

Thanks,

Paul Hillman
hacketet <hacketet@...>
 

The only way I've heard of that will remove only the lettering is to abrade it with baking soda and a Q-tip moistened in alcohol. In my opoinion, this is very tedious practice, but for a single car it may be OK. I usually do a bunch of cars at once so I've never tried it.

As for using a stripper, it all depends on what paint was used. The base color was spray painted, the lettering is applied with pad printing ink - basically a rubber stamp. They usually respond differently to different strippers, but there is no way to predict which will go first. Even if the lettering does come off first there is a good chance that the paint will be unacceptably damaged. It's better to remove everything and start over.

Here are some strippers that have been discussed in other lists:

Isopropanol (75% to 97% depending on personal preferance)
Brake fluid (no mention of the brands)
Chamelion (a propritary paint stripper)
10% sodium hydroxide (the only thing that works on old Athern models)

Unless someone has stripped this particular model, which would work best is just a guess.

--- In STMFC@..., "Bernice" <chris_hillman@...> wrote:

The questions is; how to remove the lettering without affecting the overall blue paint scheme.

What solvent will remove only the lettering? Or, will the whole car have to be paint-removed?

Thanks,

Paul Hillman
Pierre <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Paul,
You might want to try Scalecoat paint remover.
I've used it to remove factory lettering on a finished locomotive. It worked quite well for me. Didn't really have any effect on the paint job. I used cotton swaps to apply the solution and just rubbed for a bit.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "Bernice" <chris_hillman@...> wrote:

I wanted to get a Walthers undec Troop Sleeper but couldn't find one, so I wound up with a blue B&O version, #932-4169.

I want to paint it for the C&EI, in their blue with orange striping.

The questions is; how to remove the lettering without affecting the overall blue paint scheme.

What solvent will remove only the lettering? Or, will the whole car have to be paint-removed?

Thanks,

Paul Hillman
derrell
 

I'd like to add to the comments here;

First of all I've found that original flavored Pinesol removes paint from plastic quite well. Once the paint is loosened use a stiff bristle brush to whisk as much of it off the model as you can submersed in the Pinesol because it seems to smear back onto the model once the Pinesol is washed way under warm water. Then I put the parts in my ultra sonic cleaner filled with Windex (again original flavor). While plastic doesn't clean up in an Ultrasonic cleaner quite as well as metal it does help remove loose particles. Finally rinse everything in warm water (soapy is optional). This is a long-term job, which can take a few days to complete.

Naturally test your plastic in the Pinesol and Windex first! I've stripped Athearn and Life-Like in this manner.

As a professional painter I'd like to debunk a bit of the mythology about Air Honing (sand blasting) plastic; we seem to have this kid glove mentality about it. I Air Honed 4 plastic diesel shells yesterday (right along with a couple of brass pieces) in my Harbor Freight blasting cabinet. I used 220 grit silicon at between 80 and 140 psi (depending on how far down the air use pulled it)! The shells came out clean with NO damage to any of the plastic or detail. I think we either don't understand or we forget that silicon cuts rather than beats and the harder the surface the better it cuts (up to a point, of course). The softer a material is (again up to a point) the more the particles tend to bounce rather than cut.

You are all quite welcome to continue to use messy, ineffective, and long term baking soda if you wish but I tell you from hard experience that it is a waste of time when the silicon at a rather high pressure works great. Again I have not air honed every type of plastic so I would encourage you to test it first - but I say that more as a disclaimer. Athearn and Proto-2000 I've found to be quite safe!

As far as removing lettering I think the tool Jack Burgess mentions in his RMC article would be perfect with the silicon for this. Or the Paache Air Eraser. But if you use the baking soda prepare to be there "alllllllll daaaaaaay long"! Grrrrr.

Derrell

--- In STMFC@..., "Pierre" <pierre.oliver@...> wrote:

Paul,
You might want to try Scalecoat paint remover.
I've used it to remove factory lettering on a finished locomotive. It worked quite well for me. Didn't really have any effect on the paint job. I used cotton swaps to apply the solution and just rubbed for a bit.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "Bernice" <chris_hillman@> wrote:

I wanted to get a Walthers undec Troop Sleeper but couldn't find one, so I wound up with a blue B&O version, #932-4169.

I want to paint it for the C&EI, in their blue with orange striping.

The questions is; how to remove the lettering without affecting the overall blue paint scheme.

What solvent will remove only the lettering? Or, will the whole car have to be paint-removed?

Thanks,

Paul Hillman
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

derrell (not signing his full name) wrote:
As a professional painter I'd like to debunk a bit of the mythology about Air Honing (sand blasting) plastic; we seem to have this kid glove mentality about it. I Air Honed 4 plastic diesel shells yesterday (right along with a couple of brass pieces) in my Harbor Freight blasting cabinet. I used 220 grit silicon . . .
Do you mean silicon? or silicon carbide? pretty large difference.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
derrell
 

Tony,

my apology for being so careless. It is actually 220 grit Corundum (Al2O3) Aluminum Oxide - you know the stuff Safires and Rubies are made out of - really hard stuff (only Diamonds are naturally harder). I got it in 5lb tubs at Harbor Freight.

Derrell Poole
golden1014
 

Paul,

If you run out of options, send it to me and I'll sandblast the lettering off and clean it up for you. Will only take a few minutes.

John

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL

--- In STMFC@..., "derrell" <onagerla@...> wrote:

I'd like to add to the comments here;

First of all I've found that original flavored Pinesol removes paint from plastic quite well. Once the paint is loosened use a stiff bristle brush to whisk as much of it off the model as you can submersed in the Pinesol because it seems to smear back onto the model once the Pinesol is washed way under warm water. Then I put the parts in my ultra sonic cleaner filled with Windex (again original flavor). While plastic doesn't clean up in an Ultrasonic cleaner quite as well as metal it does help remove loose particles. Finally rinse everything in warm water (soapy is optional). This is a long-term job, which can take a few days to complete.

Naturally test your plastic in the Pinesol and Windex first! I've stripped Athearn and Life-Like in this manner.

As a professional painter I'd like to debunk a bit of the mythology about Air Honing (sand blasting) plastic; we seem to have this kid glove mentality about it. I Air Honed 4 plastic diesel shells yesterday (right along with a couple of brass pieces) in my Harbor Freight blasting cabinet. I used 220 grit silicon at between 80 and 140 psi (depending on how far down the air use pulled it)! The shells came out clean with NO damage to any of the plastic or detail. I think we either don't understand or we forget that silicon cuts rather than beats and the harder the surface the better it cuts (up to a point, of course). The softer a material is (again up to a point) the more the particles tend to bounce rather than cut.

You are all quite welcome to continue to use messy, ineffective, and long term baking soda if you wish but I tell you from hard experience that it is a waste of time when the silicon at a rather high pressure works great. Again I have not air honed every type of plastic so I would encourage you to test it first - but I say that more as a disclaimer. Athearn and Proto-2000 I've found to be quite safe!

As far as removing lettering I think the tool Jack Burgess mentions in his RMC article would be perfect with the silicon for this. Or the Paache Air Eraser. But if you use the baking soda prepare to be there "alllllllll daaaaaaay long"! Grrrrr.

Derrell

--- In STMFC@..., "Pierre" <pierre.oliver@> wrote:

Paul,
You might want to try Scalecoat paint remover.
I've used it to remove factory lettering on a finished locomotive. It worked quite well for me. Didn't really have any effect on the paint job. I used cotton swaps to apply the solution and just rubbed for a bit.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "Bernice" <chris_hillman@> wrote:

I wanted to get a Walthers undec Troop Sleeper but couldn't find one, so I wound up with a blue B&O version, #932-4169.

I want to paint it for the C&EI, in their blue with orange striping.

The questions is; how to remove the lettering without affecting the overall blue paint scheme.

What solvent will remove only the lettering? Or, will the whole car have to be paint-removed?

Thanks,

Paul Hillman
Paul Hillman
 

Thanks John, and all for your suggestions.

I have a Paasche air-eraser and have used aluminum-oxide & baking soda for paint removal and etching resin and brass.

I was first wondering if through you-all's experiences that the lettering paint-type was found to be different than the Walther's car's paint-type, and that lettering removal could be done by a "mild" method that would not disturb the car's main paint-type.

I've seen your discussions before about different manufacturer's plastic-types and paint-types, and using different removers as per the materials involved.

Instead of trying to use a "mystery" solvent that might melt the plastic, air-erasing might just be the best modern method.

Thanks,

Paul Hillman

----- Original Message -----
From: John<mailto:golden1014@...>
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 2:17 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Walthers Troop Sleeper



Paul,

If you run out of options, send it to me and I'll sandblast the lettering off and clean it up for you. Will only take a few minutes.

John

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL
derrell
 

The Air Eraser would be my vote, Paul. Even if the paint takes a hit it will be feathered out by the abrasive and if you know the color the model is painted a lttle air brush work will fix that.

Derrell POole
jonnyo55 <jonnyo55@...>
 

If you only want to remove the lettering, a very lo-tech method that's worked well for me is to wet the lettering with Solvaset, then literally erase the lettering with a new pencil eraser. Works great!

John O'Connell

--- In STMFC@..., "John" <golden1014@...> wrote:

Paul,

If you run out of options, send it to me and I'll sandblast the lettering off and clean it up for you. Will only take a few minutes.

John

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL



--- In STMFC@..., "derrell" <onagerla@> wrote:

I'd like to add to the comments here;

First of all I've found that original flavored Pinesol removes paint from plastic quite well. Once the paint is loosened use a stiff bristle brush to whisk as much of it off the model as you can submersed in the Pinesol because it seems to smear back onto the model once the Pinesol is washed way under warm water. Then I put the parts in my ultra sonic cleaner filled with Windex (again original flavor). While plastic doesn't clean up in an Ultrasonic cleaner quite as well as metal it does help remove loose particles. Finally rinse everything in warm water (soapy is optional). This is a long-term job, which can take a few days to complete.

Naturally test your plastic in the Pinesol and Windex first! I've stripped Athearn and Life-Like in this manner.

As a professional painter I'd like to debunk a bit of the mythology about Air Honing (sand blasting) plastic; we seem to have this kid glove mentality about it. I Air Honed 4 plastic diesel shells yesterday (right along with a couple of brass pieces) in my Harbor Freight blasting cabinet. I used 220 grit silicon at between 80 and 140 psi (depending on how far down the air use pulled it)! The shells came out clean with NO damage to any of the plastic or detail. I think we either don't understand or we forget that silicon cuts rather than beats and the harder the surface the better it cuts (up to a point, of course). The softer a material is (again up to a point) the more the particles tend to bounce rather than cut.

You are all quite welcome to continue to use messy, ineffective, and long term baking soda if you wish but I tell you from hard experience that it is a waste of time when the silicon at a rather high pressure works great. Again I have not air honed every type of plastic so I would encourage you to test it first - but I say that more as a disclaimer. Athearn and Proto-2000 I've found to be quite safe!

As far as removing lettering I think the tool Jack Burgess mentions in his RMC article would be perfect with the silicon for this. Or the Paache Air Eraser. But if you use the baking soda prepare to be there "alllllllll daaaaaaay long"! Grrrrr.

Derrell

--- In STMFC@..., "Pierre" <pierre.oliver@> wrote:

Paul,
You might want to try Scalecoat paint remover.
I've used it to remove factory lettering on a finished locomotive. It worked quite well for me. Didn't really have any effect on the paint job. I used cotton swaps to apply the solution and just rubbed for a bit.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "Bernice" <chris_hillman@> wrote:

I wanted to get a Walthers undec Troop Sleeper but couldn't find one, so I wound up with a blue B&O version, #932-4169.

I want to paint it for the C&EI, in their blue with orange striping.

The questions is; how to remove the lettering without affecting the overall blue paint scheme.

What solvent will remove only the lettering? Or, will the whole car have to be paint-removed?

Thanks,

Paul Hillman
mt19a <LarrynLynnHanlon@...>
 

Guys,

Alumina (aluminum oxide) is pretty hard stuff, but actually it is not second only to diamonds in hardness. Boron nitride, boron carbide, and silicon carbide, among others, can surpass the hardness of alumina, which is why you can find cutting tools coated with those materials. They have been available for quite some time. To add to the possibilities, it is not only the chemical composition of a material but also the physical arrangement of the atoms, and therefore how it was made, that is crucial in determining the hardness.

And in the 2 decades since I've been involved in such things, people have developed new manufacturing techniques that enable some materials, especially nanomaterials, to rival and probably surpass diamond in hardness. (There are also extremely rare forms of diamond (hexagonal) and boron nitride that appear to be substantially harder than "regular" crystalline diamond.)

A long while ago I used boron nitride films for Xray lithography mask substrates (think extremely fine lines for ICs), as well as for windows for electron sources and Xray flourescence measurements. Very hard and tough stuff.

So there are a lot of materials harder than aluminum oxide. Just google "material hardness" or "superhard materials"; Wikipedia has a useful overview.

Steam era content: Silicon carbide grit has been produced commercially for abrasives since 1893, so lots of bearing surfaces have been ground to size with it. Commercially viable industrial diamonds were first synthesized at GE in December 1954, announced 2 months later, and very possibly were used in the manufacture of roller bearings by the end of our time period. :)

Thanks,

Larry Hanlon.
Bend, OR

--- In STMFC@..., "derrell" <onagerla@...> wrote:

Tony,

my apology for being so careless. It is actually 220 grit Corundum (Al2O3) Aluminum Oxide - you know the stuff Safires and Rubies are made out of - really hard stuff (only Diamonds are naturally harder). I got it in 5lb tubs at Harbor Freight.

Derrell Poole
derrell
 

Good gawd. Whaddaya guys live for this kinda stuff? Note my feeble attempt to be concise in trying to underscore that I am smacking plastic diesel shell with really hard stuff at high velocity. Now we are discussing mineralogy?

"...really hard stuff (only Diamonds are naturally harder)." "Naturally" should have sufficiently conveyed that I am aware synthesized stuff can be harder but nooooo…

….I forgot moissanite. Still (and heavens if I'm wrong) I would expect that most of the silicone carbide we use is synthisised. Are there any others? (Don't answer that because I don't care!)

Isn't model railroading fun enough of itself that you must diverge into these poindexteresque trivial dead ends?

All I wanted to do was share with all of you my personal experiences in the hope of freeing us from the ridiculous fetters of Baking Soda. (Argh that stuff is worthless!)

And now we are off topic!!! Yikes!

(I swear this has something to do with being "potty trained" tooooo young!)

Derrell Poole

--- In STMFC@..., "mt19a" <LarrynLynnHanlon@...> wrote:


Guys,

Alumina (aluminum oxide) is pretty hard stuff, but actually it is not second only to diamonds in hardness. Boron nitride, boron carbide, and silicon carbide, among others, can surpass the hardness of alumina, which is why you can find cutting tools coated with those materials. They have been available for quite some time. To add to the possibilities, it is not only the chemical composition of a material but also the physical arrangement of the atoms, and therefore how it was made, that is crucial in determining the hardness.

And in the 2 decades since I've been involved in such things, people have developed new manufacturing techniques that enable some materials, especially nanomaterials, to rival and probably surpass diamond in hardness. (There are also extremely rare forms of diamond (hexagonal) and boron nitride that appear to be substantially harder than "regular" crystalline diamond.)

A long while ago I used boron nitride films for Xray lithography mask substrates (think extremely fine lines for ICs), as well as for windows for electron sources and Xray flourescence measurements. Very hard and tough stuff.

So there are a lot of materials harder than aluminum oxide. Just google "material hardness" or "superhard materials"; Wikipedia has a useful overview.

Steam era content: Silicon carbide grit has been produced commercially for abrasives since 1893, so lots of bearing surfaces have been ground to size with it. Commercially viable industrial diamonds were first synthesized at GE in December 1954, announced 2 months later, and very possibly were used in the manufacture of roller bearings by the end of our time period. :)

Thanks,

Larry Hanlon.
Bend, OR


--- In STMFC@..., "derrell" <onagerla@> wrote:

Tony,

my apology for being so careless. It is actually 220 grit Corundum (Al2O3) Aluminum Oxide - you know the stuff Safires and Rubies are made out of - really hard stuff (only Diamonds are naturally harder). I got it in 5lb tubs at Harbor Freight.

Derrell Poole
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