Santa Fe caboose window color


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

I know there are some Santa Fe modelers on this list, as well as historians with excellent reference sources, and that the moderator considers cabooses to be freight cars, so I'll ask. I picked this up from the Railway Preservation News chat list:


============
I'm ready to paint some new windows for the IRMs ATSF 1400 caboose. We thought they would be the mineral brown/boxcar red color as the rest of the car but found this online.

http://cencalrails.railfan.net/atsf1314dm.JPG

Anyone out there know of a paint diagram that shows green as a window color for the 1400 series cars? There was some dark green on some interior walls.

Buzz Morris
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I am a little appalled that in two days there has not been an answer... railway preservation seems to operate in a vacuum. Does anyone have an authoritative reference so the car is restored correctly? Post it here and I'll pass it on.

Dennis


Andy Sperandeo
 

Hi Dennis,

I responded to Buzz on one of the Santa Fe lists. I don't know of any documentary or photo evidence for way car window sash being anything other than Mineral Brown during the service life of those wood-bodied cars. We all know how dangerous it is to say "never," but certainly painting the sash the same Mineral Brown color as the sides and ends would give the most typical appearance and closest adherence to the Santa Fe's standards.

So long,

Andy


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 2, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Andrew Sperandeo wrote:

Hi Dennis,

I responded to Buzz on one of the Santa Fe lists. I don't know of
any documentary or photo evidence for way car window sash being
anything other than Mineral Brown during the service life of those
wood-bodied cars. We all know how dangerous it is to say "never,"
but certainly painting the sash the same Mineral Brown color as the
sides and ends would give the most typical appearance and closest
adherence to the Santa Fe's standards.
For what it's worth, I'll second Andy on this. The photo Buzz cited
shows a caboose on display at a museum, and some museums are more
responsible than others at replicating colors, etc. of the prototype
cars when in revenue service. I'm not aware of any Santa Fe
documentation for painting window sashes any other color than mineral
brown, nor have I seen any photographic evidence to suggest
otherwise. Santa Fe standard practice was to paint everything on
cabooses mineral brown, including underframe and trucks, except that
some cabooses got the roofs painted with the same gritty black that
was used on box cars and reefers to provide secure footing for
trainmen in case they stepped off the running boards.

Richard Hendrickson


tyesac@...
 

To which one could add view "builder's portraits" with suspicion as well.

Tom Casey

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thu, Feb 2, 2012 3:29 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Santa Fe caboose window color




On Feb 2, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Andrew Sperandeo wrote:

Hi Dennis,

I responded to Buzz on one of the Santa Fe lists. I don't know of
any documentary or photo evidence for way car window sash being
anything other than Mineral Brown during the service life of those
wood-bodied cars. We all know how dangerous it is to say "never,"
but certainly painting the sash the same Mineral Brown color as the
sides and ends would give the most typical appearance and closest
adherence to the Santa Fe's standards.
For what it's worth, I'll second Andy on this. The photo Buzz cited
shows a caboose on display at a museum, and some museums are more
responsible than others at replicating colors, etc. of the prototype
cars when in revenue service. I'm not aware of any Santa Fe
documentation for painting window sashes any other color than mineral
brown, nor have I seen any photographic evidence to suggest
otherwise. Santa Fe standard practice was to paint everything on
cabooses mineral brown, including underframe and trucks, except that
some cabooses got the roofs painted with the same gritty black that
was used on box cars and reefers to provide secure footing for
trainmen in case they stepped off the running boards.

Richard Hendrickson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


John H <sprinthag@...>
 

Builders photos for sure, for sure. Remember, those were advertisements and whatever could be done to enhance them was done. We are talking black and white so whatever colors give the desired contrast is what was used. For steam locos, the photographed side was often painted a flat grey with a fair amount of white striping to make all of the detail visible. After the photos were taken the loco was returned to the paint shop to repaint the photo side to match the normally painted side before shipment.

Museums are another story. The National Railroad Museum in Green Bay has done some God awful things to locos. First they painted an ALCO S-3 as Green Bay & Western S-1 #103. Then they painted an ex-SP S-6 #1201 into CNW #103. CNW never had a S-6. Not satisfied with that they repainted it as GB&W #106. The GB&W did own an S-6, the ex-Sp #1201. But they never painted it for the GB&W nor did they ever have a 106! They leased it to Nekoosa Edwards Paper Co., Nekoosa, WI., and then sold it to the James River Corp, still as #1201 with a fresh, all red paint job. James River donated it to the NRM.

So, painting some window sashes green is well within a museums sphere.

John Hagen

--- In STMFC@..., tyesac@... wrote:


To which one could add view "builder's portraits" with suspicion as well.

Tom Casey


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

John Hagen wrote:
Builders photos for sure, for sure. Remember, those were advertisements and whatever could be done to enhance them was done. We are talking black and white so whatever colors give the desired contrast is what was used. For steam locos, the photographed side was often painted a flat grey with a fair amount of white striping to make all of the detail visible. After the photos were taken the loco was returned to the paint shop to repaint the photo side to match the normally painted side before shipment.
But remember the builder, whether of locomotives or cars, prepared the photographs the buyer wanted. "Builder gray" is just one such option. Whether overhead or 3/4 views were taken, whether truck and other detail photos were made, was up to the buyer. Ed Kaminski described to me some of the many possibilities for AC&F, and Baldwin documents also contain examples of this. I have copies of SP purchase orders which specify which views, and how many prints as well as how many negatives, were to be supplied.
The builder could also take photos for their own use, of course, but to regard all builder views as "advertising" may be misleading.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

Thanks, guys. At least Buzz asked, and I was somewhat concerned that he wasn't getting any response on the RYPN board. Looks like he asked other places, too, so he does have good info.

In defense of museum work (but not particularly NRM in Green Bay)the people who do the work are usually not the people who collect and archive the paper, if the museum even has a collection of paper. IRM, where Buzz is doing this project, has an extensive collection of builders materials, but even those are problematic. Typically, the cars in the collection have been modified to a lesser or greater degree over their life, and unless extensive mechanical work is to be done to take the car back to the original, the builder's information isn't much use... what's needed is railroad information from the period to which the car will be restored. With documentation lacking, the next move is to go with the colors that were found when paint was stripped. Buzz says there is dark green visible inside the car at IRM. Very likely the people who did the work on the car in the linked photo found green on the edges of the sash, and so decided the sash should be green. Once done, it takes years before they'll be repainted, even if the museum has been convinced they are in error.

It's much better to get it right the first time.

Dennis