Gondolas with scrap loads


Jim Betz
 

Hi,

My instincts tell me that a gondola with a scrap metal load was
not highly likely to be moved long distances. That they were - most
of the time/usually - routed to a local facility that was probably
in a relatively nearby 'large city/town'.
And I'm guessing that they would be more likely to be found on or
near their home road.

Do I have this right?
- Jim


Clark Propst
 

Depends on the railroad Jim. My railraod didn't own any gons they'd want used to haul scrap, so they'd 'barrow' other roads cars.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@..., "Jim" <jimbetz@...> wrote:

Hi,

My instincts tell me that a gondola with a scrap metal load was
not highly likely to be moved long distances. That they were - most
of the time/usually - routed to a local facility that was probably
in a relatively nearby 'large city/town'.
And I'm guessing that they would be more likely to be found on or
near their home road.

Do I have this right?
- Jim


Jim Gates
 

Why would scrap go to a "large city or town"? Steel scrap is really only used by steel mills.  So I would think it would frequently travel a long distance.  Some is even shipped overseas.

Jim Gates




________________________________
From: "cepropst@q.com" <cepropst@q.com>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:50 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Gondolas with scrap loads


 
Depends on the railroad Jim. My railraod didn't own any gons they'd want used to haul scrap, so they'd 'barrow' other roads cars.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@..., "Jim" <jimbetz@...> wrote:

Hi,

My instincts tell me that a gondola with a scrap metal load was
not highly likely to be moved long distances. That they were - most
of the time/usually - routed to a local facility that was probably
in a relatively nearby 'large city/town'.
And I'm guessing that they would be more likely to be found on or
near their home road.

Do I have this right?
- Jim



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
 

Scrap gons also went from big city salvage yards to small towns with big
steel plants, e.g. Nucor in Norfolk, NE.



Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Jim
Gates
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:57 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Gondolas with scrap loads





Why would scrap go to a "large city or town"? Steel scrap is really only
used by steel mills. So I would think it would frequently travel a long
distance. Some is even shipped overseas.

Jim Gates

________________________________
From: "cepropst@q.com <mailto:cepropst%40q.com> " <cepropst@q.com
<mailto:cepropst%40q.com> >
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:50 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Gondolas with scrap loads



Depends on the railroad Jim. My railraod didn't own any gons they'd want
used to haul scrap, so they'd 'barrow' other roads cars.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jim"
<jimbetz@...> wrote:

Hi,

My instincts tell me that a gondola with a scrap metal load was
not highly likely to be moved long distances. That they were - most
of the time/usually - routed to a local facility that was probably
in a relatively nearby 'large city/town'.
And I'm guessing that they would be more likely to be found on or
near their home road.

Do I have this right?
- Jim




Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Nelson Moyer wrote:
Scrap gons also went from big city salvage yards to small towns with big steel plants, e.g. Nucor in Norfolk, NE.
But wasn't Nucor a "mini-mll" from the days long after this list?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Mike Fleming
 

That is not necessarily true. in NE Ohio, the Ohio Central hauls scrap from a scrap yard about 1/4 mile to the mill, but that is definitely the exception to the rule. I read that in a discussion on another group a couple years ago about the shortest haul for regular shipments.


Mike Fleming
Superintendent, Bluff City Div. SER, NMRA
President Emeritus, Memphis Society of Model Railroaders
Vice President, Memphis Railroad and Trolley Museum Model Railroad Club, a 100% NMRA Member Club

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Jim Gates <jim.gates@...>
To: "STMFC@..." <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Gondolas with scrap loads
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 21:56:55 -0800 (PST)

Why would scrap go to a "large city or town"? Steel scrap is really only used by steel mills. So I would think it would frequently travel a long distance. Some is even shipped overseas.

Jim Gates

________________________________
From: "cepropst@q.com" <cepropst@q.com>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:50 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Gondolas with scrap loads



Depends on the railroad Jim. My railraod didn't own any gons they'd want used to haul scrap, so they'd 'barrow' other roads cars.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@..., "Jim" <jimbetz@...> wrote:

Hi,

My instincts tell me that a gondola with a scrap metal load was
not highly likely to be moved long distances. That they were - most
of the time/usually - routed to a local facility that was probably
in a relatively nearby 'large city/town'.
And I'm guessing that they would be more likely to be found on or
near their home road.

Do I have this right?
- Jim



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


twsicrr
 

The late Ben Roberts (who worked at SR Hayne shops near Greenville, SC where old SR locomotives were scrapped), told me much of the scrap metal generated at Hayne in the late 1930's from cutting up old, obsolete SR steam locos idled by the depression was exported to Japan (before the U.S. embargoed scrap and petroleum exports to Japan.

I don't know if the scrap was shipped from Savannah - or perhaps Charleston - or if it was sent to California for export from a west coast port.

Tom Sinks


John Hile
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Jim" <jimbetz@...> wrote:

My instincts tell me that a gondola with a scrap metal load was
not highly likely to be moved long distances. That they were - most
of the time/usually - routed to a local facility that was probably
in a relatively nearby 'large city/town'.
And I'm guessing that they would be more likely to be found on or
near their home road.











Hello Jim,

Here are loads of scrap listed on trains in a 1948 NYC conductor's book I recently stumbled upon. It appears to be from the Indianapolis to E. St. Louis line.

9/21/48 wb, NYC 706635, scrap iron, So Chgo
9/25/48 eb, ??? 177636, scrap iron, Massillon, O
9/29/48 eb, IC 89996, scrap stl, Lackawana NY
10/9/48 eb, SLSF 53636, scrap stl, Lackawana, NY
10/9/48 eb, MILW 88574, scrap iron, Monessen, Pa
10/27/48 eb, Pa 348656, scrap stl, Fremont, O

There are a two others, but the destinations are numbers, and I have yet to determine what the numbers refer to...

9/23/48 wb, SAL 23397, scrap metal, 478
9/29/48 eb, BO 259993, scrap angle bars, 0 (zero?)

Typical runs were from "279" to "412" for 135 miles. I believe 279 could be Brightwood, IN as there is often a time noted for "Belt Jct" that coordinates well with start or end times at 279, and it is actually at mp 279.

As for 412, I am not sure...135 miles from Brightwood seems to fall near Mattoon, IL, but the CCC&StL track charts I found at railsandtrails.com show mileposts starting again at zero on the west side of Indianapolis. Mattoon is shown as mp 128.2 on those charts.

Any NYC guys out there who can help?


John Hile


np328
 

While doing some research this afternoon at the MHS on NP records I was going through some letters on "shippers complaints". This is an avenue to find traffic trends on a local rather than global scale. I'll state again that I do believe in the G-N traffic trends however at a global or regional scale. I have found much through these and other letters to provide much nuance on the local level.
While reading this letter (below) I thought of the conversations regarding the length of haul of scrap here in the prior weeks.

A letter from 1953 (my era) concerned an agent in Duluth, MN who relayed that "In addition to our own fleet, we look to our interchange partners in the Twin cities to supply us with suitable open top cars (gons) that are used in carrying ignots from the Duluth steel mills to Beliot, WI. These partners are the M&StL, CGW, Q, IC, and the RI."

Could have cars been captured at the Twin Cities, taken to Duluth and still be in the Car Service Rules? As presented by Dan Holbrook I would think they could have. (Again thanks Dan Holbrook, Jerry Stewart, and Matt Sugarman for your fine presentation at Lilse. Dare we hope for part 2? I have some car service orders I could send your way and you could address.)

BTW, The steel mills in Duluth operated past the the time frame of the STMFC.

From other letters I am also aware that the steel mills shipped over the various other lines that served the Twin Ports area. This from a letter where the NP solicitor was told by US Steel that "taking into account your railroad receives more than an equal division among the all railroads serving the port area, the current levels shipped via your line should be viewed as sufficent and not open to current revision." Which would mean this ignot traffic could have also gone via the SOO, the Omaha, in addition to the GN, and the MILW via NP trackage rights from Duluth. Even the DSS&A.

Most of us here are aware of the generous backhaul rates quoted on clean lading for reefers. Perhaps in areas where gons were needed in numbers, like steel mills, the railroad could quote a low rate on hauling the scrap, as long as in at the end it provided a much needed empty.

One last thing: I have googled up photos on ignots and found...not much US content, and not from the STMFC era. Would some one have access to some photos of gons with ignot loads they could post. Also searching HO scale ignots brings up a dogs breakfast of sorts. I realize due to the density the load of ignots would weigh out quit fast. Any one care to comment on a typical gon load?

For my application, I could send scrap north to the ports and then have the same cars come back with various steel loads.
Thanks, Jim Dick St. Paul


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Dick wrote:
Could have cars been captured at the Twin Cities, taken to Duluth and still be in the Car Service Rules? As presented by Dan Holbrook I would think they could have. (Again thanks Dan Holbrook, Jerry Stewart, and Matt Sugarman for your fine presentation at Lilse. Dare we hope for part 2?
I second Jim's appreciation of the fine LIsle talk by Holbrook et al., but just for clarity, it should read "Perry Sugarman." And by all means, let's have a Part 2 next year!

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Kevin McConnell
 

John, according to the CCC&St.L Ry Co Form C.A. 33 (Station Numbers and Junction
Points...) for 9/1/1923:
Station #279: Brightwood Yard
Station #412: Mattoon Shops
Station #478: Hillsboro R 79, Illinois (not sure what the R 79 means)
Station #0: Cleveland

Kevin McConnell

--- In STMFC@..., "John Hile" <john66h@...> wrote:


Hello Jim,

Here are loads of scrap listed on trains in a 1948 NYC conductor's book I recently stumbled upon. It appears to be from the Indianapolis to E. St. Louis line.

9/21/48 wb, NYC 706635, scrap iron, So Chgo
9/25/48 eb, ??? 177636, scrap iron, Massillon, O
9/29/48 eb, IC 89996, scrap stl, Lackawana NY
10/9/48 eb, SLSF 53636, scrap stl, Lackawana, NY
10/9/48 eb, MILW 88574, scrap iron, Monessen, Pa
10/27/48 eb, Pa 348656, scrap stl, Fremont, O

There are a two others, but the destinations are numbers, and I have yet to determine what the numbers refer to...

9/23/48 wb, SAL 23397, scrap metal, 478
9/29/48 eb, BO 259993, scrap angle bars, 0 (zero?)

Typical runs were from "279" to "412" for 135 miles. I believe 279 could be Brightwood, IN as there is often a time noted for "Belt Jct" that coordinates well with start or end times at 279, and it is actually at mp 279.

As for 412, I am not sure...135 miles from Brightwood seems to fall near Mattoon, IL, but the CCC&StL track charts I found at railsandtrails.com show mileposts starting again at zero on the west side of Indianapolis. Mattoon is shown as mp 128.2 on those charts.

Any NYC guys out there who can help?


John Hile


np328
 

Tony is correct, I was thinking of Matt's photography as I was typing. It was indeed Perry who presented in concert with Dans presentation.
Of the Special Service orders I had referenced earlier, one example is Car Service order 59 of 1950 which covers the 17,000 Canadian cars in the US in the 1950's. Find this in the photo section : Canadian Cars in the US. Jim Dick

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
Jim Dick wrote:
Could have cars been captured at the Twin Cities, taken to
Duluth and still be in the Car Service Rules? As presented by Dan
Holbrook I would think they could have. (Again thanks Dan Holbrook,
Jerry Stewart, and Matt Sugarman for your fine presentation at
Lilse. Dare we hope for part 2?

I second Jim's appreciation of the fine LIsle talk by Holbrook et al.,
but just for clarity, it should read "Perry Sugarman." And by all
means, let's have a Part 2 next year!

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


richard haave
 

The car service rules were such that in times of a shortage other
roads could be directed to move mtys to certain locatings even
for another carrier to use for an entire offline move.

Dick Haave
****************************

--- In STMFC@..., "np328" <jcdworkingonthenp@...> wrote:

While doing some research this afternoon at the MHS on NP records I was going through some letters on "shippers complaints". This is an avenue to find traffic trends on a local rather than global scale. I'll state again that I do believe in the G-N traffic trends however at a global or regional scale. I have found much through these and other letters to provide much nuance on the local level.
While reading this letter (below) I thought of the conversations regarding the length of haul of scrap here in the prior weeks.

A letter from 1953 (my era) concerned an agent in Duluth, MN who relayed that "In addition to our own fleet, we look to our interchange partners in the Twin cities to supply us with suitable open top cars (gons) that are used in carrying ignots from the Duluth steel mills to Beliot, WI. These partners are the M&StL, CGW, Q, IC, and the RI."

Could have cars been captured at the Twin Cities, taken to Duluth and still be in the Car Service Rules? As presented by Dan Holbrook I would think they could have. (Again thanks Dan Holbrook, Jerry Stewart, and Matt Sugarman for your fine presentation at Lilse. Dare we hope for part 2? I have some car service orders I could send your way and you could address.)

BTW, The steel mills in Duluth operated past the the time frame of the STMFC.

From other letters I am also aware that the steel mills shipped over the various other lines that served the Twin Ports area. This from a letter where the NP solicitor was told by US Steel that "taking into account your railroad receives more than an equal division among the all railroads serving the port area, the current levels shipped via your line should be viewed as sufficent and not open to current revision." Which would mean this ignot traffic could have also gone via the SOO, the Omaha, in addition to the GN, and the MILW via NP trackage rights from Duluth. Even the DSS&A.

Most of us here are aware of the generous backhaul rates quoted on clean lading for reefers. Perhaps in areas where gons were needed in numbers, like steel mills, the railroad could quote a low rate on hauling the scrap, as long as in at the end it provided a much needed empty.

One last thing: I have googled up photos on ignots and found...not much US content, and not from the STMFC era. Would some one have access to some photos of gons with ignot loads they could post. Also searching HO scale ignots brings up a dogs breakfast of sorts. I realize due to the density the load of ignots would weigh out quit fast. Any one care to comment on a typical gon load?

For my application, I could send scrap north to the ports and then have the same cars come back with various steel loads.
Thanks, Jim Dick St. Paul


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

The Jaunary 1953 ORER shows CN as having 70,441 box and automobile cars. When 17,000 CN cars were offline, this represents almost 25% of that fleet unavailable to CN. This was a bone of contention at CN, with crews specifically told to keep CN cars for loading to Canadian destinations. Keep in mind that a large portion of Canadian cars into the mid-50's had K brakes, and some even had archbar trucks. Both were acceptable as long as the car stayed within Canada.

In CN's case, this meant that cars sent to the US with a load were newer and more desirable cars with AB rakes and cast-steel trucks. And often were felt by CN to be kept captive in the US once sent there. It's well known that there was a perennial car shortage in North America until about the 1958 recession.

But in all fairness, it's said that the Pennsy supplied the US rail system with freight cars. Having fewer route miles than CN and almost twice the cars, this must have been an even bigger issue to the PRR. I imagine that the Pennsy must have continually fought with other roads to get their cars back. The capital cost of supplying its own cars to other roads probably did not help the PRR's finances. Maybe this led to the PRR's desire to merge with NYC? I recall that this was proposed late in the STMFC era.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "np328" <jcdworkingonthenp@...> wrote:

Tony is correct, I was thinking of Matt's photography as I was typing. It was indeed Perry who presented in concert with Dans presentation.
Of the Special Service orders I had referenced earlier, one example is Car Service order 59 of 1950 which covers the 17,000 Canadian cars in the US in the 1950's. Find this in the photo section : Canadian Cars in the US. Jim Dick

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@> wrote:
Jim Dick wrote:
Could have cars been captured at the Twin Cities, taken to
Duluth and still be in the Car Service Rules? As presented by Dan
Holbrook I would think they could have. (Again thanks Dan Holbrook,
Jerry Stewart, and Matt Sugarman for your fine presentation at
Lilse. Dare we hope for part 2?

I second Jim's appreciation of the fine LIsle talk by Holbrook et al.,
but just for clarity, it should read "Perry Sugarman." And by all
means, let's have a Part 2 next year!

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@
Publishers of books on railroad history


lstt100
 

Gondola car supply at Duluth was always short and thus, GN, NP, SOO, CNW, MILW, DSSA were all capturing cars for prospective loading.

Three sources of revenue were high on the loading list: Pulpwood from northern Minnesota, scrap iron from Duluth and Superior and steel products from American Steel & Wire at Steelton (suburban Duluth). The carriers at Duluth never had a sufficient car supply to cover the loading requests.

Car Service rules provided for the movement, in the opposite direction of the owner, for cars that orders, when filled, would place the cars in a loaded state, moving towards the owner. Because the DM&IR did not have the advantage of bridge traffic, empty gondolas were always in short supply for pulpwood loading.

I'll admit, a pulpwood load from Ely, MN to Wisconsin Rapids, WI was not a high speed route to get a car home, but because of the seasonal needs of the shippers in the Iron Range and Duluth area's, this was the easiest way to get sufficient cars to protect shippers orders.

Part II? I'm willing, but I'll allow list members to direct me to their areas of interest concerning this years Car Service presentation. More detailed? Tank car use in WWII? I'm listening!

Dan Holbrook


Aley, Jeff A
 

Dan,

My area of interest would be to have you give your presentation at Prototype Rails '13 in Cocoa Beach, Florida!

Regards,

-Jeff Aley
Clinic Chairman, PR'13

P.S. I'm not kidding.


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of lstt100@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:05 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Gondolas with scrap loads


Part II? I'm willing, but I'll allow list members to direct me to their areas of interest concerning this years Car Service presentation. More detailed? Tank car use in WWII? I'm listening!

Dan Holbrook


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Aley, Jeff A wrote:
Dan,
My area of interest would be to have you give your presentation at Prototype Rails '13 in Cocoa Beach, Florida!
Heck, how about both? Rails '13 as well as Naperville.


Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Aley, Jeff A
 

Of course; Dan (and any other presenter) can give his clinic in as many places as he likes; I'd just like to have one of those places be Cocoa Beach.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Anthony Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Gondolas with scrap loads



Aley, Jeff A wrote:
Dan,
My area of interest would be to have you give your
presentation at Prototype Rails '13 in Cocoa Beach, Florida!
Heck, how about both? Rails '13 as well as Naperville.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history