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Wine traveling on the Overland Route in 1949
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Regarding the transportation of wine from California, here is a reprint of a message I sent on May 15, 2010.
Of the 17 EB frt trains in my Fraley [ April 1949 UP Frt Conductor's book containing consist info on 35 frt trains between Laramie and Rawlins, WY ] there are 31 cars carrying wine. Most are tank cars although 4 PFE reefers show. Of the tank cars, there are 9 SHPX, 12 GATX, and 3 CDLX. All of these wine carrying cars are traveling to the eastern end of the UP Wyoming/Nebraska trunk at Council Bluffs except 2 to Omaha and KC. At first I was somewhat surprised that none were stopping somewhere in Wyoming but, upon reflection, perhaps something stronger might be required there. In fact, 2 box cars carrying whiskey show up in WB's but, alas, both are destined for LA [ not unexpected ]. The three CDLX cars are #318, #904 and #769. 318 and 904 appear to be compartment cars [ 80,000 lbs ]. Mike Brock |
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I think by the mid 1950's wine and beer traffic began to shift to RBL box cars, probably
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due to many economic factors including stronger "brand names" (versus locally bottled jug wines) as well as transportation economics. This traffic is substantial. As a kid in NJ there was a nearby wine/beer distributor and I remember often seeing Santa Fe RBL's there. Tim O' ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 11:24:26 PM Subject: [STMFC] Wine traveling on the Overland Route in 1949 Regarding the transportation of wine from California, here is a reprint of a message I sent on May 15, 2010. Of the 17 EB frt trains in my Fraley [ April 1949 UP Frt Conductor's book containing consist info on 35 frt trains between Laramie and Rawlins, WY ] there are 31 cars carrying wine. Most are tank cars although 4 PFE reefers show. Of the tank cars, there are 9 SHPX, 12 GATX, and 3 CDLX. All of these wine carrying cars are traveling to the eastern end of the UP Wyoming/Nebraska trunk at Council Bluffs except 2 to Omaha and KC. At first I was somewhat surprised that none were stopping somewhere in Wyoming but, upon reflection, perhaps something stronger might be required there. In fact, 2 box cars carrying whiskey show up in WB's but, alas, both are destined for LA [ not unexpected ]. The three CDLX cars are #318, #904 and #769. 318 and 904 appear to be compartment cars [ 80,000 lbs ]. Mike Brock |
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Richard Hendrickson
On Feb 28, 2012, at 7:05 AM, timboconnor@... wrote:
I think by the mid 1950's wine and beer traffic began to shift toTim, that's essentially correct. After WW II, the market for quality table wines east of the Rockies increased while the market for "Thunderbird" style fortified rotgut declined, and quality table wines, as I've pointed out before, weren't shipped in bulk in tank cars. As RBL box cars became increasingly available, they were the freight cars of choice for shipping bottled wines in cases. Richard Hendrickson |
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water.kresse@...
Up thru the 1950s and the 60s the wine producers in say in upper New York State had to fortify their locally grown pressed grapes with full-bodied California red grapes or juices. Local Italian immigrate families here in the Detroit area also purchased California grapes to make their homeland-style wines.
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Al Kresse ----- Original Message -----
From: timboconnor@... To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:05:23 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine traveling on the Overland Route in 1949 I think by the mid 1950's wine and beer traffic began to shift to RBL box cars, probably due to many economic factors including stronger "brand names" (versus locally bottled jug wines) as well as transportation economics. This traffic is substantial. As a kid in NJ there was a nearby wine/beer distributor and I remember often seeing Santa Fe RBL's there. Tim O' ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 11:24:26 PM Subject: [STMFC] Wine traveling on the Overland Route in 1949 Regarding the transportation of wine from California, here is a reprint of a message I sent on May 15, 2010. Of the 17 EB frt trains in my Fraley [ April 1949 UP Frt Conductor's book containing consist info on 35 frt trains between Laramie and Rawlins, WY ] there are 31 cars carrying wine. Most are tank cars although 4 PFE reefers show. Of the tank cars, there are 9 SHPX, 12 GATX, and 3 CDLX. All of these wine carrying cars are traveling to the eastern end of the UP Wyoming/Nebraska trunk at Council Bluffs except 2 to Omaha and KC. At first I was somewhat surprised that none were stopping somewhere in Wyoming but, upon reflection, perhaps something stronger might be required there. In fact, 2 box cars carrying whiskey show up in WB's but, alas, both are destined for LA [ not unexpected ]. The three CDLX cars are #318, #904 and #769. 318 and 904 appear to be compartment cars [ 80,000 lbs ]. Mike Brock [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Al Kresse wrote:
Up thru the 1950s and the 60s the wine producers in say in upper New York State had to fortify their locally grown pressed grapes with full-bodied California red grapes or juices. Local Italian immigrate families here in the Detroit area also purchased California grapes to make their homeland-style wines.For making "economy" wines, juice might have been purchased, but quality wines require prompt processing of freshly-squeezed juice into the fermenting process. Shipping the juice hundreds of miles, at the speed of freight car transport, would definitely NOT be a good idea. There was and is a market in wine-grape juice, but it is highly local for timing reasons. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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water.kresse@...
Tony,
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So attempting to save money over expedited UPS Air by shipping my 2007-2009 Gary Farrell Pinot Noirs from the Russian River area by train won't be a great idea? Al Kresse ----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 2:15:33 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine traveling on the Overland Route in 1949 Al Kresse wrote: Up thru the 1950s and the 60s the wine producers in say in upper NewFor making "economy" wines, juice might have been purchased, but quality wines require prompt processing of freshly-squeezed juice into the fermenting process. Shipping the juice hundreds of miles, at the speed of freight car transport, would definitely NOT be a good idea. There was and is a market in wine-grape juice, but it is highly local for timing reasons. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Is there any reason not to assume that the liquid in tank cars was sometimes just plain
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old grape juice, possibly pasteurized? Grape juice is used nowadays in vast quantities as a substitute for corn syrup and other sugars, or mixed with other juices. Tim O'Connor ----- Original Message -----
For making "economy" wines, juice might have been purchased, but quality wines require prompt processing of freshly-squeezed juice into the fermenting process. Shipping the juice hundreds of miles, at the speed of freight car transport, would definitely NOT be a good idea. There was and is a market in wine-grape juice, but it is highly local for timing reasons. Tony Thompson |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Tim O'Connor wrote:
Is there any reason not to assume that the liquid in tank cars was sometimes just plain old grape juice, possibly pasteurized? Grape juice is used nowadays in vast quantities as a substitute for corn syrup and other sugars, or mixed with other juices.Well, in such a case the cargo would not be waybilled as "wine" so we are wandering away from the subject a bit. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Not necessarily. I wonder how many of those conductor's notes just -assumed- that the
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contents of a loaded tank car with a large "WINE" logo the car was filled with wine, and not something else. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 3:33:29 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine traveling on the Overland Route in 1949 Tim O'Connor wrote: Is there any reason not to assume that the liquid in tank cars wasWell, in such a case the cargo would not be waybilled as "wine" so we are wandering away from the subject a bit. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links |
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dmamfahr <mamfahr@...>
Not necessarily. I wonder how many of those conductor's notes just -assumed- that the contents of a loaded tank car with a large "WINE" logo the car was filled with wine, and not something else. Could be, but I believe in most cases conductors were writing those lists based upon information shown on the cars' waybills. Also, conductors didn't always have the privilige of actually viewing their trains prior to writing up the lists, so they wouldn't have had the chance to see writing on a particlar car. Take care, Mark |
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water.kresse@...
We presume the most interested person would be the receiving end revenue person wanting to insure they got their tax cut? Did these cars have to be bonded like liquor box cars were?
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Al Kresse ----- Original Message -----
From: "dmamfahr" <mamfahr@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 3:53:23 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Wine traveling on the Overland Route in 1949 Not necessarily. I wonder how many of those conductor's notes just -assumed- that the contents of a loaded tank car with a large "WINE" logo the car was filled with wine, and not something else. Could be, but I believe in most cases conductors were writing those lists based upon information shown on the cars' waybills. Also, conductors didn't always have the privilige of actually viewing their trains prior to writing up the lists, so they wouldn't have had the chance to see writing on a particlar car. Take care, Mark |
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Tim,
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Any juice such as grape juice would have to be treated with preservatives to keep it from fermenting, but then yes. Pasteurization would remove organisms in the juice, but the tank itself would be an issue, even if steam cleaned and there is the possibility of wild yeast and bacterial contamination through the open. Without the preservatives to kill the bugs, it would start the trip as grape juice and end the trip as about the nastiest "wine" you could imagine. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield." __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 On Feb 28, 2012, at 2:11 PM, <timboconnor@...<mailto:timboconnor@...>>
wrote: Is there any reason not to assume that the liquid in tank cars was sometimes just plain old grape juice, possibly pasteurized? Grape juice is used nowadays in vast quantities as a substitute for corn syrup and other sugars, or mixed with other juices. Tim O'Connor ----- Original Message ----- For making "economy" wines, juice might have been purchased, but quality wines require prompt processing of freshly-squeezed juice into the fermenting process. Shipping the juice hundreds of miles, at the speed of freight car transport, would definitely NOT be a good idea. There was and is a market in wine-grape juice, but it is highly local for timing reasons. Tony Thompson ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Vinegar, you mean?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> To: "<STMFC@...>" <STMFC@...> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:44:07 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine traveling on the Overland Route in 1949 Tim, Any juice such as grape juice would have to be treated with preservatives to keep it from fermenting, but then yes. Pasteurization would remove organisms in the juice, but the tank itself would be an issue, even if steam cleaned and there is the possibility of wild yeast and bacterial contamination through the open. Without the preservatives to kill the bugs, it would start the trip as grape juice and end the trip as about the nastiest "wine" you could imagine. Regards Bruce |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Tim wrote:
Not necessarily. I wonder how many of those conductor's notes just - assumed- that the contents of a loaded tank car with a large "WINE" logo the car was filled with wine, and not something else.Oh, sure. They just made up the cargoes. Or maybe they looked at the waybills. Oh, yeah, that could make sense. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Aley, Jeff A
Need I remind you of Larry Jackman's carload of "lumber" on the UP in Topeka, KS?
It was a tank car. Regards, -Jeff From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Anthony Thompson Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:15 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine traveling on the Overland Route in 1949 Tim wrote: Not necessarily. I wonder how many of those conductor's notes just -Oh, sure. They just made up the cargoes. Or maybe they looked at the waybills. Oh, yeah, that could make sense. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Aley, Jeff A wrote:
Need I remind you of Larry Jackman's carload of "lumber" on the UP in Topeka, KS?Yes, a favorite story. But as I recall, that wasn't from a conductor's time book nor from a waybill. And even Larry didn't claim it was a common result. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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tbarney2004
I always wondered where "Thunderbird" wine came from. Thanks Bruce.
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Tim Barney On 2/28/2012 5:44 PM, Bruce F. Smith wrote:
Tim, |
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Tony
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Since these documents were unofficial, I see no reason to assume they are 100% accurate. In fact, since I can show you examples of incorrect entries -- non-existent reporting marks, non-existent car numbers, I have no reason to assume that every cargo listing is accurate. But perhaps your powers of divination are greater than everyone else's. Pardon me for being so bold as to question the unquestionable. Tim O'Connor Not necessarily. I wonder how many of those conductor's notes just -Oh, sure. They just made up the cargoes. Or maybe they looked at |
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Jeff, you risk rocking the foundations upon which the tower of all
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truth and wisdom rests. Tim O'Connor At 2/28/2012 08:24 PM Tuesday, you wrote:
Need I remind you of Larry Jackman's carload of "lumber" on the UP in Topeka, KS? |
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dmamfahr <mamfahr@...>
Need I remind you of Larry Jackman's carload of "lumber" on the UP in Topeka, KS? It was a tank car. Hello all, After analyzing many thousands of entries in various UP conductor's time books (source of the hand-written train consist records), I can tell you that they're surprisingly accurate. I've entered many records into Excel spreadsheets, then cross-checked the reporting marks, car numbers, car types, contents, destination codes, icing instructions, etc and I'll say that I've noted relatively few obvious errors. Sure there are mistakes, but after reviewing a typical book containing 2500 or so car records (total of ~13,000 data entries) I'll note something on the order of 50 errors, < 1/2 %. The most common entry error I find is the car type code, such as entering a "B" for boxcar when the car was actually a flatcar. We don't have a way to cross-check the contents of the cars, but very few obvious ones pop up, such as the one Jeff mentioned above. Car initial / number errors show themselves quickly when you check them against ORER records; very few of those appear. On the whole, I'd say the UP conductor's books are an excellent source of information and have been surprised at how accurate they are considering that many were written at night, by lantern light, in a jiggling caboose, looking at documents created using worn carbon paper, written by sleep deprived conductors, etc. For what it's worth, I tend to find more errors while looking through the computer-based information that's typically provided by present-day RRs as I carry out my RR consulting work... Take care, Mark |
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