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GS Gondolas

Andy Harman
 

The GS style gondola is one of my favorite steam era freight cars. No
particular logic, I just never met a drop bottom gondola I didn't like and
the GS classes are the definitive drop bottom, at least in standard gauge.

Is there a good reference source for the various SP GS classes? I know
Challenger did some in brass - I have two, I don't remember exactly what
they are but neither are the same as the two Red Caboose models. The old
Ulrich die cast model also seems to be reasonably accurate for 55 years
ago. I also have a couple of the Detail Associates kits.

I'm also curious as to what other roads had GS type drop bottoms besides SP
- I think UP and D&RGW had similar if not identical cars. I've also seen
them depicted in Santa Fe and NP, but I have no idea if there's any truth
to that.

Like I said, no logic here - I never saw a GS in person and they didn't
live in my "official" modeling era or local which is OT for this forum.
But I do think they are among the most interesting and versatile freight
cars of their time.

I also have a PBL Sn3 800 class kit... and I've been tempted by the
Blackstone HOn3 model of same, although I'd have to buy a piece of track to
put either of them on.

Andy
Benjamin Hom
 

Andy Harman asked:
"Is there a good reference source for the various SP GS classes?"

Southern Pacific Freight Cars Volume 1: Gondolas and Stock Cars by Anthony W.
Thompson.
http://www.signaturepress.com/SPF1.html


Ben Hom
Aley, Jeff A
 

Andy,

Perhaps you should model the Utah Coal Route (UCR). Their roster was entirely GS gons!

The UP had many classes of GS gons, totalling somewhere around 11,000 cars.
Available models include the Ulrich, which is a UP G-50-7 (1,960 cars), Detail Associates 200 (UP G-50-11), Red Caboose 5103 (also UP G-50-11 (996 cars)), DA 220 (UP G-50-13), and RC 5002 (UP G-50-13 (1,799 cars)).

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Andy Harman
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:39 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] GS Gondolas



The GS style gondola is one of my favorite steam era freight cars. No
particular logic, I just never met a drop bottom gondola I didn't like and
the GS classes are the definitive drop bottom, at least in standard gauge.

Is there a good reference source for the various SP GS classes? I know
Challenger did some in brass - I have two, I don't remember exactly what
they are but neither are the same as the two Red Caboose models. The old
Ulrich die cast model also seems to be reasonably accurate for 55 years
ago. I also have a couple of the Detail Associates kits.

I'm also curious as to what other roads had GS type drop bottoms besides SP
- I think UP and D&RGW had similar if not identical cars. I've also seen
them depicted in Santa Fe and NP, but I have no idea if there's any truth
to that.

Like I said, no logic here - I never saw a GS in person and they didn't
live in my "official" modeling era or local which is OT for this forum.
But I do think they are among the most interesting and versatile freight
cars of their time.

I also have a PBL Sn3 800 class kit... and I've been tempted by the
Blackstone HOn3 model of same, although I'd have to buy a piece of track to
put either of them on.

Andy
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Andy Harman wrote:
Is there a good reference source for the various SP GS classes? I know Challenger did some in brass - I have two, I don't remember exactly what they are but neither are the same as the two Red Caboose models. The old Ulrich die cast model also seems to be reasonably accurate for 55 years ago. I also have a couple of the Detail Associates kits.
Yes, Andy, there's a whole book <g>. The Ulrich model can do classes G-50-9 through -12 with minor changes. Detail Associates and Red Caboose and Challenger all did the "1940s" Enterprise design. Red Caboose chose to do the Improved Dreadnaught end, which limits the kit to G-50-22 (steel) and G-50-23 (composite) classes. The brass ones are the same. Detail Associates includes a flat panel end, so that you can do G-50-15, along with the same -22 and -23 classes.

I'm also curious as to what other roads had GS type drop bottoms besides SP - I think UP and D&RGW had similar if not identical cars. I've also seen them depicted in Santa Fe and NP, but I have no idea if there's any truth to that.
Santa Fe GS cars were mostly Caswells, done beautifully in an InterMountain model. UP had almost identical cars to SP. Both NP and GN had some similar cars too, as did CN. The D&RGW cars were 46 feet long, as were WP's GS cars, so the models you mentioned would be stand- ins. However, W&R did the D&RGW car in brass, and very nicely too. Other roads such as IC also had GS cars, but I don't know much about them.
Maybe Richard Hendrickson will chime in on this as I think he has good photo coverage of such cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 15, 2012, at 7:47 AM, Aley, Jeff A wrote:

Andy,

Perhaps you should model the Utah Coal Route (UCR). Their roster
was entirely GS gons!
Yeah, but there are NO GS gon models that are even remotely accurate
for the UCR cars (or their UP counterparts).

The UP had many classes of GS gons, totalling somewhere around
11,000 cars.
Available models include the Ulrich, which is a UP G-50-7 (1,960
cars)....
Well, more or less. The UP cars had corrugated ends, which the
Ulrich models do not.

Richard Hendrickson
Bill Welch
 

Andy

The Illinois Central had several thousand "GS" gons equipped w/Dreadnaught ends. To model one of these I am in the process of grafting the ends from the Accurail AAR gon kit to a Detail Assoc. kit. The Improved Dreadnaught ends from the DA kit are being glued (this morning) to the Accurail gon kit to model one of the 100 cars the Georgia received.

The two ends are basically interchangeable dimensionally.

There are many photos of the IC gons and one of the Car Builders CYCs had very good coverage.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Andy Harman wrote:
Is there a good reference source for the various SP GS classes? I
know Challenger did some in brass - I have two, I don't remember
exactly what they are but neither are the same as the two Red
Caboose models. The old Ulrich die cast model also seems to be
reasonably accurate for 55 years ago. I also have a couple of the
Detail Associates kits.
Yes, Andy, there's a whole book <g>. The Ulrich model can do
classes G-50-9 through -12 with minor changes. Detail Associates and
Red Caboose and Challenger all did the "1940s" Enterprise design. Red
Caboose chose to do the Improved Dreadnaught end, which limits the kit
to G-50-22 (steel) and G-50-23 (composite) classes. The brass ones are
the same. Detail Associates includes a flat panel end, so that you can
do G-50-15, along with the same -22 and -23 classes.

I'm also curious as to what other roads had GS type drop bottoms
besides SP - I think UP and D&RGW had similar if not identical
cars. I've also seen them depicted in Santa Fe and NP, but I have
no idea if there's any truth to that.
Santa Fe GS cars were mostly Caswells, done beautifully in an
InterMountain model. UP had almost identical cars to SP. Both NP and
GN had some similar cars too, as did CN. The D&RGW cars were 46 feet
long, as were WP's GS cars, so the models you mentioned would be stand-
ins. However, W&R did the D&RGW car in brass, and very nicely too.
Other roads such as IC also had GS cars, but I don't know much about
them.
Maybe Richard Hendrickson will chime in on this as I think he
has good photo coverage of such cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Richard Remiarz
 

Bill,

What are you doing for decals on the IC car? I am also workng on a model of the car based on a Red Caboose kit. Champ had a decal set, but it was discontinued some time again (before they shut down), and I haven't had any luck finding one. Does anyone else make appropriate decals?

Rich Remiarz

To: STMFC@...
From: fgexbill@...
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:15:28 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Re: GS Gondolas

Andy

The Illinois Central had several thousand "GS" gons equipped w/Dreadnaught ends. To model one of these I am in the process of grafting the ends from the Accurail AAR gon kit to a Detail Assoc. kit. The Improved Dreadnaught ends from the DA kit are being glued (this morning) to the Accurail gon kit to model one of the 100 cars the Georgia received.

The two ends are basically interchangeable dimensionally.

There are many photos of the IC gons and one of the Car Builders CYCs had very good coverage.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Andy Harman wrote:
Is there a good reference source for the various SP GS classes? I
know Challenger did some in brass - I have two, I don't remember
exactly what they are but neither are the same as the two Red
Caboose models. The old Ulrich die cast model also seems to be
reasonably accurate for 55 years ago. I also have a couple of the
Detail Associates kits.
Yes, Andy, there's a whole book <g>. The Ulrich model can do
classes G-50-9 through -12 with minor changes. Detail Associates and
Red Caboose and Challenger all did the "1940s" Enterprise design. Red
Caboose chose to do the Improved Dreadnaught end, which limits the kit
to G-50-22 (steel) and G-50-23 (composite) classes. The brass ones are
the same. Detail Associates includes a flat panel end, so that you can
do G-50-15, along with the same -22 and -23 classes.

I'm also curious as to what other roads had GS type drop bottoms
besides SP - I think UP and D&RGW had similar if not identical
cars. I've also seen them depicted in Santa Fe and NP, but I have
no idea if there's any truth to that.
Santa Fe GS cars were mostly Caswells, done beautifully in an
InterMountain model. UP had almost identical cars to SP. Both NP and
GN had some similar cars too, as did CN. The D&RGW cars were 46 feet
long, as were WP's GS cars, so the models you mentioned would be stand-
ins. However, W&R did the D&RGW car in brass, and very nicely too.
Other roads such as IC also had GS cars, but I don't know much about
them.
Maybe Richard Hendrickson will chime in on this as I think he
has good photo coverage of such cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
Bill Welch
 

Rich

I am probably going to use whatever Champ decals I have. I know i have the roadname set and will probably end slicing together weight and dimensional stenciling. Surely there are some dealers that still have Champ sets.

Bill

--- In STMFC@..., Rich Remiarz <rremiarz@...> wrote:


Bill,

What are you doing for decals on the IC car? I am also workng on a model of the car based on a Red Caboose kit. Champ had a decal set, but it was discontinued some time again (before they shut down), and I haven't had any luck finding one. Does anyone else make appropriate decals?

Rich Remiarz


To: STMFC@...
From: fgexbill@...
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:15:28 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Re: GS Gondolas

Andy

The Illinois Central had several thousand "GS" gons equipped w/Dreadnaught ends. To model one of these I am in the process of grafting the ends from the Accurail AAR gon kit to a Detail Assoc. kit. The Improved Dreadnaught ends from the DA kit are being glued (this morning) to the Accurail gon kit to model one of the 100 cars the Georgia received.

The two ends are basically interchangeable dimensionally.

There are many photos of the IC gons and one of the Car Builders CYCs had very good coverage.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@> wrote:

Andy Harman wrote:
Is there a good reference source for the various SP GS classes? I
know Challenger did some in brass - I have two, I don't remember
exactly what they are but neither are the same as the two Red
Caboose models. The old Ulrich die cast model also seems to be
reasonably accurate for 55 years ago. I also have a couple of the
Detail Associates kits.
Yes, Andy, there's a whole book <g>. The Ulrich model can do
classes G-50-9 through -12 with minor changes. Detail Associates and
Red Caboose and Challenger all did the "1940s" Enterprise design. Red
Caboose chose to do the Improved Dreadnaught end, which limits the kit
to G-50-22 (steel) and G-50-23 (composite) classes. The brass ones are
the same. Detail Associates includes a flat panel end, so that you can
do G-50-15, along with the same -22 and -23 classes.

I'm also curious as to what other roads had GS type drop bottoms
besides SP - I think UP and D&RGW had similar if not identical
cars. I've also seen them depicted in Santa Fe and NP, but I have
no idea if there's any truth to that.
Santa Fe GS cars were mostly Caswells, done beautifully in an
InterMountain model. UP had almost identical cars to SP. Both NP and
GN had some similar cars too, as did CN. The D&RGW cars were 46 feet
long, as were WP's GS cars, so the models you mentioned would be stand-
ins. However, W&R did the D&RGW car in brass, and very nicely too.
Other roads such as IC also had GS cars, but I don't know much about
them.
Maybe Richard Hendrickson will chime in on this as I think he
has good photo coverage of such cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@
Publishers of books on railroad history



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 15, 2012, at 9:55 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

....Santa Fe GS cars were mostly Caswells, done beautifully in an
InterMountain model. UP had almost identical cars to SP. Both NP and
GN had some similar cars too, as did CN. The D&RGW cars were 46 feet
long, as were WP's GS cars, so the models you mentioned would be
stand-
ins. However, W&R did the D&RGW car in brass, and very nicely too.
Other roads such as IC also had GS cars, but I don't know much about
them.
Maybe Richard Hendrickson will chime in on this as I think he
has good photo coverage of such cars.
There's already been some discussion on the list about the IC cars
and how to model them accurately with the DA and RC plastic models.

As Tony says, IM's Santa Fe Caswell gondolas are nice models and, as
there were more than 10,000 of them, did go off-line fairly
frequently (I have documentation of them in New England and the
Atlantic seaboard states). Sunshine has also produced resin kits for
the later Santa Fe 40' and 50' composite gons. Tony's comments about
the Rio Grande and WP cars are also accurate.

UP's GS gons can be modeled, with some modifications, using the old
Ulrich die cast metal kits for the G-50-7 class (if you change the
ends to corrugated ends) and the Detail Associates and Red Caboose
styrene models for the G-50-11 war emergency composite cars and the
postwar G-50-13s and G-50-14s.

In general, the problem for modelers is that not many other railroads
had Enterprise GS gons, and (apart from some rare and costly brass
models) other GS gons - early UP, Rio Grande, Utah Coal Route, GN,
NP, etc. - aren't easily modeled because their side framing and
sheathing, ends, and drop door operating mechanisms are different.
Some CN cars can be modeled reasonably accurately with the old Ulrich
kit, but many of CN's early Enterprise gons were 36' cars, not
41'6". A few eastern and midwestern RRs (e.g. B&M, C&EI, Monon) had
GS gons, but they weren't Enterprise cars and in most cases were
converted in the '30s and '40s to solid bottom cars.

So modeling GS gondolas other than the Enterprise cars is still a
largely unexplored frontier.

Richard Hendrickson
Andy Harman
 

At 12:15 PM 3/16/2012 +0000, you wrote:

The Illinois Central had several thousand "GS" gons equipped w/Dreadnaught ends.
That's something I didn't know... did they ever run east of Chicago? And how long did they last?

Andy
Andy Harman
 

At 10:53 AM 3/16/2012 -0700, you wrote:

As Tony says, IM's Santa Fe Caswell gondolas are nice models and, as
there were more than 10,000 of them, did go off-line fairly
frequently
I thought I had one of these but I can't find it. But undec kits are in stock at IM. I also have some of the USRA composites but they lack the appeal of the others - their profile is too similar to an ordinary gondola. I also see IM has announced 8 different variants of the Caswell in RTR form...

Sunshine has also produced resin kits for the later Santa Fe 40' and 50'
composite gons.
I also have at least one of these maybe both. There was a time when I bought one of everything, before I decided to focus more on the 70s. I am still interested in steam era freight cars, but not to build a massive fleet. I still have mumble-mumble steam locomotives, and quite a few of them are western prototypes.

UP's GS gons can be modeled, with some modifications, using the old
Ulrich die cast metal kits for the G-50-7 class
The Ulrich is what started it for me. My dad had a modest selection of metal freight cars from Athearn, MDC, and Ulrich. The Ulrich gondola was impressive to me at the time with its crisp detail and working hatches - although it was done up in a very loud, and I'm sure bogus green M&STL scheme.
http://www.gp30.com/vintage/dadstrain/dadstrain06.jpg - I haven't tried to bring one up to semi-current standards but I have accumulated some unbuilt kits cheaply over the past several years.

41'6". A few eastern and midwestern RRs (e.g. B&M, C&EI, Monon) had
GS gons, but they weren't Enterprise cars and in most cases were
converted in the '30s and '40s to solid bottom cars.
The Monon car sounds vaguely familiar.

So modeling GS gondolas other than the Enterprise cars is still a
largely unexplored frontier.
I feel I'm ready to take a crack at some fairly major scratch-bashing, but good data is a must. I like to take a break now and then from my main interests and it would be fun just to model some of the SP variants to start with. I first need to take inventory of what I have. I know I have two DA kits, but I never even realized there were more than one variant so I don't even know what I have there.

Andy
Andy Harman
 

At 03:46 AM 3/15/2012 -0700, you wrote:

Southern Pacific Freight Cars Volume 1: Gondolas and Stock Cars by Anthony W. Thompson.
http://www.signaturepress.com/SPF1.html
I'm reading my email backwards but now I see you beat Tony to the punch plugging his own book. I often don't know what I have and I thought hmm, maybe I already have it. But I guess not - I have Tony's PFE book and his Morning Sun SP book, but that's mostly diesel era. There is one shot of some GS gondolas in wood chip service.

I guess I need to buy another book. I only bought one at the WGH show this past weekend but I could have bought 15 easily.

Andy
Ray Breyer
 

The Illinois Central had several thousand "GS" gons equipped
w/Dreadnaught ends.
That's something I didn't know... did they ever run east of Chicago? And
how long did they last?
Andy

Roughly? All-steel GS gons lasted on the IC from 1912 to about 1985. The last time I saw one with shiny wheels was in 2006 (part of the KB&S' MOW fleet). They were renumbered numerous times, and rebuilt bunches of times as well (solid bottom, container, woodchip service, etc).

To be a bit more precise, the IC started using Dreadnaught ends on composite GS gons in 1927, and on all-steel cars in 1940.

The IC was the 10th largest railroad in the United States in the 1950s, one of the most profitable, hauled as much coal as the L&N, and served the third largest city/industrial area in the country. Think their cars might have gotten around a bit?

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
Andy Harman
 

At 09:55 AM 3/15/2012 -0700, you wrote:

Yes, Andy, there's a whole book <g>. T
I just placed my order....

Santa Fe GS cars were mostly Caswells, done beautifully in an
InterMountain model.
That's probably going to be my next order in a few minutes. Undec kits in stock.

long, as were WP's GS cars, so the models you mentioned would be stand-
ins. However, W&R did the D&RGW car in brass, and very nicely too.
Other roads such as IC also had GS cars, but I don't know much about
them.
The Challenger cars I have are a G50-9 and -12.

Andy
Andy Harman
 

At 11:42 AM 3/15/2012 -0700, you wrote:
Well, more or less. The UP cars had corrugated ends, which the
Ulrich models do not.
The Ulrich has the ends and floor as a one piece casting but the sides are separate, which should make it easier to make modifications. IMO the Ulrich's biggest weakness is the thick and flat looking hatch shaft - but that could also be replaced with a little effort. I just pulled out an Ulrich SP kit from the 70s production... the lettering on it is just plain awful, I can't even read the class lettering it is so smudged. Oh well, with the other mods it will need a repaint anyway.

Andy
Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 16, 2012, at 9:29 PM, Andy Harman wrote:

The Ulrich has the ends and floor as a one piece casting but the
sides are
separate, which should make it easier to make modifications. IMO the
Ulrich's biggest weakness is the thick and flat looking hatch shaft
- but
that could also be replaced with a little effort....
Careful! The shafts on the Ulrich sides ARE too large, though they
can be filed down (tedious, but it doesn't really take all that
long). However, they're supposed to be flat, because the shafts for
the Enterprise door operating mechanisms were square.

Richard Hendrickson
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Andy Harman wrote:
IMO the Ulrich's biggest weakness is the thick and flat looking hatch shaft - but that could also be replaced with a little effort.
As you will see in Vol. 1, the prototype had a square operating shaft. The Ulrich is indeed oversize, but Challenger using a round rod was wrong also. I would recommend reducing the thickness of the cast Ulrich shaft, not necessarily replacing it.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Andy Harman
 

At 10:11 PM 3/16/2012 -0700, you wrote:
long). However, they're supposed to be flat, because the shafts for
the Enterprise door operating mechanisms were square.
Hmm... file down or just replace with some square styrene?

Andy
Andy Harman
 

I dug out of both of my Detail Associates kits... both are #200 composite side. Looks like it's ebay to shop for a steel side. Are the DA cars OOP now? Red Caboose kind of rained on their parade but as Tony pointed out the DA cars have extra parts for other fun stuff.

Andy
Andy Harman
 

I also found my Intermountain Caswell. I was looking for a kit... that's why I couldn't find it yesterday. I found an RTR car that I had never even taken out of the box. Definitely one of IM's best, on par with the 1958 hopper. I have no idea where I'm headed with this, other than I might be buying some more of that lovely red oak from Lowes to build a display case for a bunch of drop bottom gondolas.

Andy
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