main@RealSTMFC.groups.io | Flatcar Load for You PRR and Wide Gauge Connoissuers

Home Messages Hashtags Subgroups

Date Date 1 - 10 of 10

Flatcar Load for You PRR and Wide Gauge Connoissuers

gary laakso

For all you connoissuers of PRR flatcars and wide gauge equipment, here are pictures from a posting on the Northern Pacific yahoo group showing Nixon pictures from Missoula, MT on October 25, 1943.  It appears the routing did not use the  Bruceton detour for PRR equipement, though the flatcars may have been supplied as empties from there.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

"USSR 24-25 Baldwin Builder # 69932-69933 for export to Russia, passing through Missoula on a revenue freight train."
Date: October 25, 1943 
Location: Missoula, MT

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07753

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07746

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07752

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07749

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07747

Bruce Smith

#107644

Gary,

I love these photos.  There are several more in the collection that show the tenders.  The locomotives are Baldwin built USA class S160 2-8-0s headed for the Soviet Union via the Pacific.  We've actually talked about these a few time here, as they are such neat loads.  I'd love to model these loads, and an HO S160 model is available from DJH
http://www.djhengineering.co.uk/loco/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3073
but OUCH! that's an expensive load (if anyone wants to give me one for my upcoming 0.5 century birthday... I'd be happy to supply a mailing address!!).

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of vasa0vasa@... [vasa0vasa@...]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 5:14 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: [STMFC] Flatcar Load for You PRR and Wide Gauge Connoissuers

For all you connoissuers of PRR flatcars and wide gauge equipment, here are pictures from a posting on the Northern Pacific yahoo group showing Nixon pictures from Missoula, MT on October 25, 1943.  It appears the routing did not use the  Bruceton detour for PRR equipement, though the flatcars may have been supplied as empties from there.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

"USSR 24-25 Baldwin Builder # 69932-69933 for export to Russia, passing through Missoula on a revenue freight train."
Date: October 25, 1943
Location: Missoula, MT

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07753

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07746

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07752

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07749

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07747

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

devansprr

#107664

Anyone care to comment on the possible overload of these flats (140000LB Capacity)?

The 1905 vintage PRR consol (class H6) weighed 170,000 lb empty (locomotive only), and these seem beefier. (The later PRR H8-H10 classes had empty locomotive weights in the 210,000 lb + range.)

A close look at photo 7747 would suggest that the springs are VERY compressed. Yet this load was likely loaded at Baldwin in Eddystone, PA (near Philadelphia) - hardly a location where one would expect freight car capacities to be ignored - except for the war?

Which raises the issue - one often reads about WWII traffic levels wearing out the railroads - but I have always assumed it was because of increased volumes and insufficient maintenance workforce for the traffic levels. Now I am wondering if it could also be that for war time "expediency" equipment was routinely overloaded?

Or is this engine more diminutive than it looks?

I also recently came across some old WWII era coal mine pictures in the Pittsburgh area (from LOC) where the cars are heaped right up the rim. Doubt they were at rated capacity too.

Dave Evans

BTW - Happy Birthday Bruce. Just remember that the hill keeps rising in front of you....

Show quoted text

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

Gary,

I love these photos.  There are several more in the collection that show the tenders.  The locomotives are Baldwin built USA class S160 2-8-0s headed for the Soviet Union via the Pacific.  We've actually talked about these a few time here, as they are such neat loads.  I'd love to model these loads, and an HO S160 model is available from DJH
http://www.djhengineering.co.uk/loco/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3073
but OUCH! that's an expensive load (if anyone wants to give me one for my upcoming 0.5 century birthday... I'd be happy to supply a mailing address!!).

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of vasa0vasa@... [vasa0vasa@...]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 5:14 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: [STMFC] Flatcar Load for You PRR and Wide Gauge Connoissuers

For all you connoissuers of PRR flatcars and wide gauge equipment, here are pictures from a posting on the Northern Pacific yahoo group showing Nixon pictures from Missoula, MT on October 25, 1943.  It appears the routing did not use the  Bruceton detour for PRR equipement, though the flatcars may have been supplied as empties from there.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

"USSR 24-25 Baldwin Builder # 69932-69933 for export to Russia, passing through Missoula on a revenue freight train."
Date: October 25, 1943
Location: Missoula, MT

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07753

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07746

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07752

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07749

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07747

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Steve Stull

#107673

Dave;

ETO (European Theater of Operations) General Arrangement Drawing indicates an empty weight of 65.6 Long Tons,(2200 lbs. I believe) giving an actual weight of 144,320 (calculated) lbs.

Link to the page:

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/steam-locomotives/usatc-s160-1.htm

Steve Stull

Show quoted text

--- On Sun, 3/18/12, Dave Evans <devans1@...> wrote:

Anyone care to comment on the possible overload of these flats (140000LB Capacity)?

Tom Vanwormer

#107666

Dave,
Having read all of the Southern Pacific Lines Bulletins provided to the 
employees, their was very significant stress during the first year (at 
least) of USRA control to fully load all of the cars online.  Freight 
Agents who convinced shippers to double load their assigned cars were 
commended in the Bulletin.

Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

Dave Evans wrote:

Show quoted text

 

Anyone care to comment on the possible overload of these flats 
(140000LB Capacity)?

The 1905 vintage PRR consol (class H6) weighed 170,000 lb empty 
(locomotive only), and these seem beefier. (The later PRR H8-H10 
classes had empty locomotive weights in the 210,000 lb + range.)

A close look at photo 7747 would suggest that the springs are VERY 
compressed. Yet this load was likely loaded at Baldwin in Eddystone, 
PA (near Philadelphia) - hardly a location where one would expect 
freight car capacities to be ignored - except for the war?

Which raises the issue - one often reads about WWII traffic levels 
wearing out the railroads - but I have always assumed it was because 
of increased volumes and insufficient maintenance workforce for the 
traffic levels. Now I am wondering if it could also be that for war 
time "expediency" equipment was routinely overloaded?

Or is this engine more diminutive than it looks?

I also recently came across some old WWII era coal mine pictures in 
the Pittsburgh area (from LOC) where the cars are heaped right up the 
rim. Doubt they were at rated capacity too.

Dave Evans

BTW - Happy Birthday Bruce. Just remember that the hill keeps rising 
in front of you....

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, "Bruce 
F. Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

Bruce Smith

#107669

Dave,

Allowed weight on the rail with the bearings those cars had was 210,000 lbs.  The light weight of the F30a was about 51,000 lbs. resulting in a Ld Lmt stencil  around 159,000 lbs, or just a hair under 80 tons.  The S160 weighed 161,000 lbs with a weight on the drivers of 140,000 lbs and a tender weight of 115,500 lbs.  I'm guessing that either they ignored the slight overweight issue, or removed about a ton of weight.  Is locomotive weight calculated with a boiler full of water?  If so, that would be the difference, right there!

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of Dave Evans [devans1@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:42 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Flatcar Load for You PRR and Wide Gauge Connoissuers

Anyone care to comment on the possible overload of these flats (140000LB Capacity)?

The 1905 vintage PRR consol (class H6) weighed 170,000 lb empty (locomotive only), and these seem beefier. (The later PRR H8-H10 classes had empty locomotive weights in the 210,000 lb + range.)

A close look at photo 7747 would suggest that the springs are VERY compressed. Yet this load was likely loaded at Baldwin in Eddystone, PA (near Philadelphia) - hardly a location where one would expect freight car capacities to be ignored - except for the war?

Which raises the issue - one often reads about WWII traffic levels wearing out the railroads - but I have always assumed it was because of increased volumes and insufficient maintenance workforce for the traffic levels. Now I am wondering if it could also be that for war time "expediency" equipment was routinely overloaded?

Or is this engine more diminutive than it looks?

I also recently came across some old WWII era coal mine pictures in the Pittsburgh area (from LOC) where the cars are heaped right up the rim. Doubt they were at rated capacity too.

Dave Evans

BTW - Happy Birthday Bruce. Just remember that the hill keeps rising in front of you....

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

Gary,

I love these photos.  There are several more in the collection that show the tenders.  The locomotives are Baldwin built USA class S160 2-8-0s headed for the Soviet Union via the Pacific.  We've actually talked about these a few time here, as they are such neat loads.  I'd love to model these loads, and an HO S160 model is available from DJH
http://www.djhengineering.co.uk/loco/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3073
but OUCH! that's an expensive load (if anyone wants to give me one for my upcoming 0.5 century birthday... I'd be happy to supply a mailing address!!).

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of vasa0vasa@... [vasa0vasa@...]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 5:14 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: [STMFC] Flatcar Load for You PRR and Wide Gauge Connoissuers

For all you connoissuers of PRR flatcars and wide gauge equipment, here are pictures from a posting on the Northern Pacific yahoo group showing Nixon pictures from Missoula, MT on October 25, 1943.  It appears the routing did not use the  Bruceton detour for PRR equipement, though the flatcars may have been supplied as empties from there.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

"USSR 24-25 Baldwin Builder # 69932-69933 for export to Russia, passing through Missoula on a revenue freight train."
Date: October 25, 1943
Location: Missoula, MT

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07753

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07746

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07752

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07749

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07747

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

devansprr

#107672

Bruce,

The PRR H6a class (1904 vintage 2-8-0 for the non-SPF's) has an empty weight about 22,000 pounds under the "working order" weight, which should mostly be water in the boiler, full sand dome, and maybe some coal in the firebox.

So if the empty weight of the S160 is 161,000 pounds, then that makes them a little smaller than a PRR H6a. I am curious if S means 2-8-0 and 160 is either empty weight, or working order weight, in pounds.

PRR locomotive drawings that break weight out by axle are working order weights, and if this Baldwin had a working order weight of 161,000, then its empty weight would be well under the flat car's max rating, and it is considerably smaller than a PRR H6a.

So Baldwin didn't overload the F30a (STMFC content).

Thanks,
Dave Evans

Show quoted text

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

Dave,

Allowed weight on the rail with the bearings those cars had was 210,000 lbs.  The light weight of the F30a was about 51,000 lbs. resulting in a Ld Lmt stencil  around 159,000 lbs, or just a hair under 80 tons.  The S160 weighed 161,000 lbs with a weight on the drivers of 140,000 lbs and a tender weight of 115,500 lbs.  I'm guessing that either they ignored the slight overweight issue, or removed about a ton of weight.  Is locomotive weight calculated with a boiler full of water?  If so, that would be the difference, right there!

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of Dave Evans [devans1@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:42 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Flatcar Load for You PRR and Wide Gauge Connoissuers

Anyone care to comment on the possible overload of these flats (140000LB Capacity)?

The 1905 vintage PRR consol (class H6) weighed 170,000 lb empty (locomotive only), and these seem beefier. (The later PRR H8-H10 classes had empty locomotive weights in the 210,000 lb + range.)

A close look at photo 7747 would suggest that the springs are VERY compressed. Yet this load was likely loaded at Baldwin in Eddystone, PA (near Philadelphia) - hardly a location where one would expect freight car capacities to be ignored - except for the war?

Which raises the issue - one often reads about WWII traffic levels wearing out the railroads - but I have always assumed it was because of increased volumes and insufficient maintenance workforce for the traffic levels. Now I am wondering if it could also be that for war time "expediency" equipment was routinely overloaded?

Or is this engine more diminutive than it looks?

I also recently came across some old WWII era coal mine pictures in the Pittsburgh area (from LOC) where the cars are heaped right up the rim. Doubt they were at rated capacity too.

Dave Evans

BTW - Happy Birthday Bruce. Just remember that the hill keeps rising in front of you....

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@> wrote:

Gary,

I love these photos.  There are several more in the collection that show the tenders.  The locomotives are Baldwin built USA class S160 2-8-0s headed for the Soviet Union via the Pacific.  We've actually talked about these a few time here, as they are such neat loads.  I'd love to model these loads, and an HO S160 model is available from DJH
http://www.djhengineering.co.uk/loco/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3073
but OUCH! that's an expensive load (if anyone wants to give me one for my upcoming 0.5 century birthday... I'd be happy to supply a mailing address!!).

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of vasa0vasa@ [vasa0vasa@]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 5:14 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: [STMFC] Flatcar Load for You PRR and Wide Gauge Connoissuers

For all you connoissuers of PRR flatcars and wide gauge equipment, here are pictures from a posting on the Northern Pacific yahoo group showing Nixon pictures from Missoula, MT on October 25, 1943.  It appears the routing did not use the  Bruceton detour for PRR equipement, though the flatcars may have been supplied as empties from there.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@

"USSR 24-25 Baldwin Builder # 69932-69933 for export to Russia, passing through Missoula on a revenue freight train."
Date: October 25, 1943
Location: Missoula, MT

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07753

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07746

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07752

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07749

http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN07747

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

devansprr

#107679

Steve,

Great link - Many Thanks

Diminutive might be appropriate compared to U.S. WWII Steam - max height was 12' 10". But on top of rails set on top of the F30 (3'7" to 3'10" deck height), that puts the load's vertical height up around 17' or so.

Wonder what the routing was...

Dave Evans

Show quoted text

--- In STMFC@..., Steve Stull <winslow7076@...> wrote:

Dave;

ETO (European Theater of Operations) General Arrangement Drawing indicates an empty weight of 65.6 Long Tons,(2200 lbs. I believe) giving an actual weight of 144,320 (calculated) lbs.

Link to the page:

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/steam-locomotives/usatc-s160-1.htm

Steve Stull

--- On Sun, 3/18/12, Dave Evans <devans1@...> wrote:

Anyone care to comment on the possible overload of these flats (140000LB Capacity)?

Steve Stull

#107688

Dave;

Glad to help when I can. 

Probably routed with a minimum of tunnels ;)

Show quoted text

--- On Sun, 3/18/12, Dave Evans <devans1@...> wrote:

Steve,

Great link - Many Thanks

Wonder what the routing was...

Dave Evans

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>

#107706

I'd imagine that at 17' high, these loads would be high-and-wide or "dimensional" loads, receiving special handling.  The high centre of gravity would have created some movement restrictions, too.  The folks working out the routing would have spent some time poring over the latest Railway Line Clearances issue!

Steve Lucas.

Show quoted text

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Evans" <devans1@...> wrote:

Steve,

Great link - Many Thanks

Diminutive might be appropriate compared to U.S. WWII Steam - max height was 12' 10". But on top of rails set on top of the F30 (3'7" to 3'10" deck height), that puts the load's vertical height up around 17' or so.

Wonder what the routing was...

Dave Evans

--- In STMFC@..., Steve Stull <winslow7076@> wrote:

Dave;

ETO (European Theater of Operations) General Arrangement Drawing indicates an empty weight of 65.6 Long Tons,(2200 lbs. I believe) giving an actual weight of 144,320 (calculated) lbs.

Link to the page:

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/steam-locomotives/usatc-s160-1.htm

Steve Stull

--- On Sun, 3/18/12, Dave Evans <devans1@> wrote:

Anyone care to comment on the possible overload of these flats (140000LB Capacity)?

1 - 10 of 10

Previous Topic Next Topic

Home Hashtags Subgroups About Features Pricing Updates Terms Help Twitter