I'm very surprised to see the percentage that high.
Pierre Oliver

Rich Orr wrote:

I think it was the December MR where the editorial referred to a survey conducted by MR which revealed that 6% of modelers were strict prototype modelers. Indeed a small segment of small population.

then Pierre Oliver replied:

I'm very surprised to see the percentage that high.

Surveyors know that when questions are asked which the subject may perceive as having a prestige component, more people will answer in the prestige direction than actually qualify. So I think that MR percentage describes how many people would like to THINK of themselves as "prototype modelers." Just keep in mind Lake Woebegone, where "all the children are above average."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Remember, this is a survey -- probably conducted voluntarily
(self-chosen) and the answers are self-descriptions. Not what
you would call a 'scientific' poll.

If you look at the models I've built, you'd probably call me a
true RPM'er. But if you look at all the things I've bought over
the years, you might not be so generous in your assessment! :-)

Tim O'Connor

you might want to consider that the majority of the MR readership are
not modelers, but rather model railroaders who prefer to shake the box
and run trains. A survey by RMC might be more indicative of the hobby
as a whole. Norm Buckhart

On Mar 24, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Pierre wrote:

I'm very surprised to see the percentage that high.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., SUVCWORR@... wrote:

I think it was the December MR where the editorial referred to a

survey conducted by MR which revealed that 6% of modelers were
strict prototype modelers. Indeed a small segment of small population.

Rich Orr




Anyway, it just underscored to me how rare RPM'ing really is. The

great

majority of people really do just want to have fun with the hobby,

and

realistic and prototypical rolling stock seems to be WAY DOWN on the
scale of importance to most people.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim,



Down here in the North Texas area where I live there are several serious RPM
people that I know that do not like to socialize. They do not like train
shows and other people near their "stuff".



Most of my friends are serious operators where if it doesn't run well and is
too dainty, it isn't on the layout. Most of the equipment follows their
theme-IE mid 50's Santa Fe, for instance, with a lot of detailed and
weathered Blue Box cars that would pass the 3 foot rule anywhere. The thing
we all worry about is the normal damage a car gets during an operating
session. None of us enjoy replacing bent grab irons or stirrups, especially
on a custom built car.



None of them profess to be "NIT PICKING" RPM nuts but for the most part you
won't find an out of era car or an NYC/PRR loco running down the Santa Fe
for instance.



I guess it's all in what you want to be called.



Pat Wilkinson

In part glgpat@... writes:
"to be "NIT PICKING" RPM nuts"



Can someone 'splain that one to me as I might be one and don't even know
it.



You might be a Nit Picking Railroad Prototype Modeler if:


* If you recognize that Bower's PRR freight car color is wrong and make
honest attempts to correct it and Lee English gives you the cold should after
your helpful emails.


*If you recognize that the Walthers X29 boxcar and the Red Caboose X29 are
different lengths.


*If you have already recognized that and underframe on a resin kit is
wrong and others remind you that the SHAKE N TAKE kit needs to have the correct
underframe.

*If you realize that the Life Like 50-foot boxcar can be used for a PRR
X38 but the roof on the durn thing needs to be raised 2½ scale inches, the
rivet patterns no problem.

*IF you know every durn fool AAR truck produced made from the twenties to
the late fifties even from the crappiest photo...


*If you have a huge collection of Mainline Modeler and Prototype modeler
and won't rip the articles and dump the adds.


*If you remember when Paul Lubeliner was carrying around rubber molds of
his F units.


*If you remember when Jim Six was an editor for Prototype Modeler and
Richard Hendrickson was a regular contributor.


*If you remember West Rail kits.


* If you have more equipment on your layout that will pass the foot or
less rule than there is equipment that would qualify in the three foot rule
category.

*If you enjoy reading someone's research and interests in a particular
railroad or related company like SFRD, PFE, FGEX/WFEX/NX/BREX, MDT, etc.

If you think you resemble any of the above categories or characteristics
you just might be a serious modeler than enjoys the research as much a the
modeling and view it as part of the hobby.


Greg Martin



Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pat Wilkinson wrote:

None of them profess to be "NIT PICKING" RPM nuts but for the most part you won't find an out of era car or an NYC/PRR loco running down the Santa Fe
for instance.

There is no necessary connection between nit picking and RPM, nor are RPM folks necessarily nuts. I guess I would set the bar of prototype modeling just a hair higher than avoiding locomotives of faraway roads. I'd also urge that we avoid provocative remarks like "nit picking RPM nuts."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

At 01:13 PM 3/24/2012 -0700, you wrote:

in the prestige direction than actually qualify. So I think that MR
percentage describes how many people would like to THINK of themselves
as "prototype modelers."

As far as I'm concerned, a wannabe prototype modeler is a prototype modeler. To what degree he adheres, etc, is subjective anyway, but I think you are one if you say you are. Because those who aren't wouldn't be caught dead admitting any affiliation with the rivet counters... so I wouldn't think there's a high probability of error in this survey. Now if you have more strict criteria for defining a prototype modeler, you could narrow it down pretty far... like guys who use only Proto:87 track and Sergent couplers - they don't consider us code 83 NMRA / code 88 and Kadee guys "real" prototype modelers, just ask 'em.

So I'm more for the inclusive, not just because it makes our numbers bigger, but because it encourages more people to improve their modeling and improve their knowledge and observation of the prototype and keep some of the good stuff flowing.

Andy

I hate to admit this, but when I finally got my Alma branch layout up and running I was eager to have operating sessions to test out operating procedures that I had learned from interviews with Alma branch crew members from the 1940s and 1950s and from depot agents at Burlingame and Hessdale. Unfortunately I do not have a Santa Fe locomotive in operating condition so have borrowed a Bachman 2-8-0 from a friend who has it lettered for N&W. Most of the cars are out-of-the box and have not been weathered. Some do not fit my May 1943 era. Eventually all the rolling stock will be as true to prototype as my track, structures, and scenery. But I am having fun with my operations and I believe what I am doing on my layout is pretty close to prototype.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA

Pat,

Careful there <G>... there are lots of examples of the converse. In fact, many PRR modelers have a few AT&SF 2-10-4s, especially if they model Lines West in 1956. I, as rivet counting SPF will also have one, but this one will be dead in tow, as it is being delivered from Baldwin in June 1944. Likewise an NP VO1000 will make an appearance. Finally, an ACL E3 and E6 lashup will also appear from time to time, on an official detour route supported by documetnation of ACL and RF&P diesels on the PRR in Philadelphia.

Really, being a prototype modeler is best left to self definition. If you think you are one, then you are! And in reality, almost ALL modelers, even freelances, model prototypes for at least some of their equipment (unless they have no interchange), thus making them prototype modelers as well.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
Pat said,

None of them profess to be "NIT PICKING" RPM nuts but for the most part you
won't find an out of era car or an NYC/PRR loco running down the Santa Fe
for instance.

Bruce

So you subscribe to the Accidental Tourist definition of a Proto Modeler?
That is, if one of their randomly chosen models happens to be accurate for
some prototype at some point in time, then they're a Prototype Modeler?

I dunno... I'm not buying it. I'm pretty generous about such things, but
I ain't going that far. There has to be some intention and understanding
of the prototype that goes beyond the road name or the brand name on the
box.

Tim O'Connor

Interestingly my blog has been described as RPM, but I tend to think of my American "thang" (as my CLAG colleagues call it) a very much a middle of the road, mostly RTR layout.

I suppose for me I just do my own thing and it makes me happy, and let others pontificate on everything else.

--
Ashley Pollard
Ashley@...

---------------------------------------

http://no-two-alike.blogspot.com/

On 24,03 2012 23:22 PM, tgregmrtn@... wrote:

In part glgpat@... <mailto:glgpat%40etchntech.com> writes:
"to be "NIT PICKING" RPM nuts"
Can someone 'splain that one to me as I might be one and don't even
know it.

You might be a Nit Picking Railroad Prototype Modeler if:

* If you recognize that Bower's PRR freight car color is wrong and make
honest attempts to correct it and Lee English gives you the cold
should after
your helpful emails.

*If you recognize that the Walthers X29 boxcar and the Red Caboose X29
are
different lengths.

*If you have already recognized that and underframe on a resin kit is
wrong and others remind you that the SHAKE N TAKE kit needs to have
the correct
underframe.

*If you realize that the Life Like 50-foot boxcar can be used for a PRR
X38 but the roof on the durn thing needs to be raised 2½ scale inches,
the
rivet patterns no problem.

*IF you know every durn fool AAR truck produced made from the twenties to
the late fifties even from the crappiest photo...

*If you have a huge collection of Mainline Modeler and Prototype modeler
and won't rip the articles and dump the adds.

*If you remember when Paul Lubeliner was carrying around rubber molds of
his F units.

*If you remember when Jim Six was an editor for Prototype Modeler and
Richard Hendrickson was a regular contributor.

*If you remember West Rail kits.

* If you have more equipment on your layout that will pass the foot or
less rule than there is equipment that would qualify in the three foot
rule
category.

*If you enjoy reading someone's research and interests in a particular
railroad or related company like SFRD, PFE, FGEX/WFEX/NX/BREX, MDT, etc.

If you think you resemble any of the above categories or characteristics
you just might be a serious modeler than enjoys the research as much a
the
modeling and view it as part of the hobby.

Greg Martin

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean

Greg and Y'all
There is one other.

*If you are a PRR modelerthat changes all the drivers on his steam
engine to the correct quarter!

Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist SPF PRRTHS #1204

Greg,
 
You have not only described me, you've given away my age too !
I have to agree with what you stated as I too, enjoy the research
and the modeling efforts needed to build as close to proto as my
skill level allows.
 
Fred Freitas
Panhandle Divn 1953


________________________________
From: PennsyNut <pennsynut@...>
To: STMFC@...
Cc: tgregmrtn@...
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: State of the RPM hobby


 
On 24,03 2012 23:22 PM, tgregmrtn@... wrote:

In part glgpat@... <mailto:glgpat%40etchntech.com> writes:
"to be "NIT PICKING" RPM nuts"
Can someone 'splain that one to me as I might be one and don't even
know it.

You might be a Nit Picking Railroad Prototype Modeler if:

* If you recognize that Bower's PRR freight car color is wrong and make
honest attempts to correct it and Lee English gives you the cold
should after
your helpful emails.

*If you recognize that the Walthers X29 boxcar and the Red Caboose X29
are
different lengths.

*If you have already recognized that and underframe on a resin kit is
wrong and others remind you that the SHAKE N TAKE kit needs to have
the correct
underframe.

*If you realize that the Life Like 50-foot boxcar can be used for a PRR
X38 but the roof on the durn thing needs to be raised 2½ scale inches,
the
rivet patterns no problem.

*IF you know every durn fool AAR truck produced made from the twenties to
the late fifties even from the crappiest photo...

*If you have a huge collection of Mainline Modeler and Prototype modeler
and won't rip the articles and dump the adds.

*If you remember when Paul Lubeliner was carrying around rubber molds of
his F units.

*If you remember when Jim Six was an editor for Prototype Modeler and
Richard Hendrickson was a regular contributor.

*If you remember West Rail kits.

* If you have more equipment on your layout that will pass the foot or
less rule than there is equipment that would qualify in the three foot
rule
category.

*If you enjoy reading someone's research and interests in a particular
railroad or related company like SFRD, PFE, FGEX/WFEX/NX/BREX, MDT, etc.

If you think you resemble any of the above categories or characteristics
you just might be a serious modeler than enjoys the research as much a
the
modeling and view it as part of the hobby.

Greg Martin

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean

Greg and Y'all
There is one other.

*If you are a PRR modelerthat changes all the drivers on his steam
engine to the correct quarter!

Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist SPF PRRTHS #1204

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 02:12 PM 3/25/2012 -0400, you wrote:

I dunno... I'm not buying it. I'm pretty generous about such things, but
I ain't going that far. There has to be some intention and understanding
of the prototype that goes beyond the road name or the brand name on the
box.

The abundance of pretty good prototypical RTR models makes it very likely
that even a rabid freelancer has a prototypical model somewhere on their
layout. But without intent, and without knowledge, it doesn't mean
anything. That person may have 5 prototypical freight cars out of 200 they
own, and they probably wouldn't be able to tell you which ones they are.

Andy

Fred Freitas writes:


Greg,

You have not only described me, you've given away my age too ! I have to
agree with what you stated as I too, enjoy the research and the modeling
efforts needed to build as close to proto as my skill level allows.

Fred Freitas
Panhandle Divn 1953

Fred and all,

I wrote it with tongue in cheek, but most of it is true and I think most
of us can relate. I would say that most of us took our work a bit more
seriously starting in the seventies, albeit most of us began by reading works of
others which proves that the writers of that era had been testing their
work even earlier.

We all have mentors and for me to just state a few they would include Mont
Switzer, Bob Zenk, Richard Hendrickson, Jim Six, Tony Thompson, Wayne
Sittner as well as others. These are the guys that taught me all about hacking
up freight cars and diesels. There are others that have inspired me equally
when it came to structures and scenery like Lou Sassi, Paul Dolkos, Paul
Scoles and Walt Appel as well. The scenery guys have never forced the
"Prototype" layout thing down my throat, but they have dazzled me with
realism... and reminded me that what makes a layout feel as realistic as the
prototype is getting the signatures correct.

Fred you're absolutely correct and to quote you, "enjoy the research and
the modeling efforts needed to build as close to proto as my skill level
allows", and I think that all of the above mentors have only ever ask you to
challenge your own skills and raise your personal bar one more time, that is
all I think that Schuyler's SHAKE N TAKE Yahoo Group and the same with
Bruce's PRR Project Yahoo Group ever has wanted of it crews. You can't win if
you don't play.

We all to often forget this is a hobby of illusion, and we use the
illusion to our advantage and something magical happens in the end.

No contest can fully reward it, no judge can validate it. We are our own
judges and we win our own contest, and bragging rites go out the window with
the egos.

Greg Martin

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean

I'm not a NIT PICKING" RPM nut yet! Some PRR passenger/headend cars and
rolling stock make it to the CV but CN far outnumbers them. Also I
started modeling after I retired so despite my age I'm new at the hobby.

Bob Moeller
CV, CN, GT, GTW and StJ&LC at Swanton VT 1947-1957
10 miles south of the Canadian/US border
9 miles north of CV headquarters in St Albans VT

I had my RPMer moment today on I-77, the West Virginia Turnpike. I was
behind a left lane bandit SUV when the rear windscreen wiper caught my
eye. My first thought? Dang, that looks like a Carmer cut lever...

CZ
NC

--
clzeni@...

Bless you, Ashley. (Doing my best to pontificate.)

Tim O'