More.....RPM


drgwrail
 

Sorry, that last message was incomplete.

Things changed when CAD became available to small users. For 25 years now I have been doing engineering design for almost every HO mfgr. This was all unsolicited, word just got arounf. The mode today is you make a CAD layout of the prototype car, then a detail drawing of every part. The detailed parts then can be assembled into another drawingn of the completed model so all fits, interferences, erros are visible. Now the "client" can see exactly what will come out of the model and he can go to any good die shop and tell him he wants dies to a make exactly that. And revision are simple before metal cutting strats With modern (but very expensive) 3D CAD the inputs to numerically machining the die can be done directly from the CAD data base.

All unlike the old days where the guy who paid a die shop never really knew what he was getting until the first test shot into the die.

Almost all the defunct mfgrs cited so far on this topic failed because of this die ptoblem. Recall one out of business mfgr who gave a clinic at an NMRA national about going into the business. He started by saying you would should put $30,000 in dollar bills in a pole and light it.... thereby save ing your mind and health and save yourself the suffering brfore the inevitable end!

I worked with Dick Schweiger just before he got ill. He wanted me to redisn the entire line stating with the SFRD reefers so he had a decent set of drawings to difene exacly what he wanted.

So there is more to this long story, including inside horror stories for which a client paid for a design that really would be a disater. but when he pays you you do waht he wants and respect his privacy!

Chuck Yungkurth


derrell
 

Chuck,

I'm sure it isn't news to you that the cost die molds continues to be the bain of the industry. But to the general group; from what I understand the Chinese Honeymoon is over and many of the manufacturers who were lured into overseas tool making are now learning the hard lesson of how you do get what you pay for! Apparently one of the big issues right now is retrieving die molds. One would expect that after you paid for the tooling the molds belong to you. Well! The big toy mnfr, Mattel found that their Chinese manufacturer passed their mold over to an Indian firm that proceeded to remove their trademark and began manufacturing their products and selling them very cheaply in the European market. When Mattel tried to retrieve what they thought was their property they learned that the ownership of that property passes to the government of a nation that provides tax free operation for a period of 5 or 6 years. Seems there isn't much they can do about it. (Please note that this information came to me third hand so I don't know details or particular accuracy - however I do know there is a major implosion going on with the Chinese/Model Railroad relationship!)

Closer to home there are half a dozen great products sitting on the shelves at NWSL that can go no further because of tooling costs. Funding isn't there. It isn't prohibitively costly to get into resin casting. It isn't even that costly to take advantage of Rapid Prototyping especially if you are a CAD drafter capable of generating 3D models. Cutting dies is a matter of 3 - 4k per mold and one needs to be reasonably certain the product has a market otherwise you are very much in the disaster boat Chuck speaks of.

Well why don't you go to the banks and get loans Derrell? (Actually that would be Dave). Because banks are not lending. NWSL has attempted to get loans and while the banks always love their plan and model they can't cut a loan!

So we continue to have to use parts cast from dies that are decades old and warp to fit!

Chuck, I'm sure you know this but perhaps others do not; in the late '40s Carl Traub (a name everyone should recognize) and Frank Taylor started Globe Models, Eventually Carl sold Globe Models to Irv Athearn who used the name for a short time for some of his earliest products. I'm curious to know how much of the Globe line might have translated into the Athearn line?

Derrell Poole


Tim O'Connor
 

My only Globe kit is for a streamlined passenger car, and this car is still part of the Athearn line.

----- Original Message -----
From: "derrell" <onagerla@...>

Chuck, I'm sure you know this but perhaps others do not; in the late '40s Carl Traub (a name everyone should recognize) and Frank Taylor started Globe Models, Eventually Carl sold Globe Models to Irv Athearn who used the name for a short time for some of his earliest products. I'm curious to know how much of the Globe line might have translated into the Athearn line?

Derrell Poole


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "derrell" <onagerla@...> wrote:

So we continue to have to use parts cast from dies that are decades old and warp to fit!
As long as we are discussing this, we need to clean up some terminology... the discussion tends to sound like those TV newscasts where anythin that runs on rails, caboose, locomotive, single stationary car, entire consist displaying markers, is a "train" :-(

DIES are cutting or forming tools that work solid material... think punch press work. Die-cut shingles are made with a DIE.

Early in the history of injection molding either plastic or metal, the craftsmen that made dies, die makers, were the people with the skill set to make the molds, so the became tool & die makers. This led to the early metal process being called die casting, because it looked like the metal was being poured into a stamping die, but it's not the proper terminology. The usage lingers on with the accepted term "die cast", but the tool is properly called a mold.

The tool into which a liquid or plastic is going to be molded is properly called a MOLD.

CASTING is the process of filling a mold with only gravity for assist. Resin kits are usually CAST.

MOLDING is the process of injecting the material under pressure. Themo-plastic parts are MOLDED, not cast.

The current term for die casting is METAL INJECTION MOLDING, but the old term has yet to completely die out.

Dennis (picky, picky, picky) Storzek


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

I have a set of F units, A and B, in Globe boxes. If that is not the Athearn F unit, it is sure marvelously close.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
 

Thanks Dennis for clarifying that.



If I were to take the time to really think about it, I knew all those
methods and there proper names but it sure is nice to see it spelled out.



However, doubtless, most, including myself, will continue to use die casting
to denote molded metal and molded or just plain plastic for injection molded
plastic items. It's just easier and more universally understood among the
majority, in particular those younger than me (which is a very large group).



I remember a discussion about case hardened tools that occurred back around
1965 between my father and one of my friends who was just about finished
with his tool and die apprenticeship. The problem was they were both talking
different eras with dad's experience going back to WWII and beyond. Back
then case hardening was used in applications that were no longer used twenty
plus years later.



John Hagen



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
soolinehistory
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:01 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: More.....RPM







--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "derrell"
<onagerla@...> wrote:

So we continue to have to use parts cast from dies that are decades old
and warp to fit!
As long as we are discussing this, we need to clean up some terminology...
the discussion tends to sound like those TV newscasts where anythin that
runs on rails, caboose, locomotive, single stationary car, entire consist
displaying markers, is a "train" :-(

DIES are cutting or forming tools that work solid material... think punch
press work. Die-cut shingles are made with a DIE.

Early in the history of injection molding either plastic or metal, the
craftsmen that made dies, die makers, were the people with the skill set to
make the molds, so the became tool & die makers. This led to the early metal
process being called die casting, because it looked like the metal was being
poured into a stamping die, but it's not the proper terminology. The usage
lingers on with the accepted term "die cast", but the tool is properly
called a mold.

The tool into which a liquid or plastic is going to be molded is properly
called a MOLD.

CASTING is the process of filling a mold with only gravity for assist. Resin
kits are usually CAST.

MOLDING is the process of injecting the material under pressure.
Themo-plastic parts are MOLDED, not cast.

The current term for die casting is METAL INJECTION MOLDING, but the old
term has yet to completely die out.

Dennis (picky, picky, picky) Storzek


derrell
 

Apparently Irv used the Globe name for his first plastic diesels but I'm not sure Carl and Frank did any diesels. Same goes for the passenger cars. Sorta why I'm asking.

Derrell Poole


derrell
 

You know Dennis ...... I don't even know what to say to you...
*
*
*
*
Did you at least grasp the point?!

I swear if I held a diamond in my hand you would see my dirty fingernails!

So let's just state this in so many words; I don't CARE if there is a lack of precision in the extraneous and superfluous words I use because I expect smart people to extrapolate the real point I'm attempting to make! Even you!

In this case the point is about property and what can apparently happen to it in International Law! Not about molds! Who cares about molds?! They are incidental to the point!! And we all, ALREADY, know how molds are made and used!

Some of you guys are addicted to minutia! Do you not have lives? Is this all you do - sit on your computers and wait for someone to NOT live up to your standard of fidelity and precision in language? I have many friends who no longer belong to any groups because of this kind of esss aitch eye tea! But I'm stupid! I keep coming back here and hoping to contribute something meaningful. Do you just not have any consideration as to how disrespectful you are being?

You are like the "nice" person who slows down and stops in traffic to let someone from a side street or driveway enter their lane - and they didn't even ask the 10 drivers they've held up behind them if that was okay with them. Nice person my Bleeeep!

Don't like my bark? Don't pull my tail!

Derrell Poole


derrell
 

John,

I would never presume there was any sarcasm in you response to this. All I see is a lot more tact and patience than I have. My hat is off to you!

Now!

"Whatever happened to my Transylvania Twist..."

Derrell Poole


Tom Madden
 

Derrell Poole wrote:

Some suff that should have been in a private email and not sent to the entire STMFC list...
Posts like Dennis' are written for all 1800+ of us, not just as personal replies intended for one. Individual posts can contain commentary, questions or information, and the best of them provide opportunities for further education and clarification. I'm rather knowledgeable about resin casting and mold making, and familiar with some aspects of toolmaking, but I appreciate it when someone with Dennis' background takes the opportunity to broaden my knowledge about his area of expertise. It's not a slam at the original post (which I found most useful and informative) as it is an extension of it. We all benefit.

Tom Madden


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "pullmanboss" <pullmanboss@...> wrote:

Posts like Dennis' are written for all 1800+ of us, not just as personal replies intended for one. Individual posts can contain commentary, questions or information, and the best of them provide opportunities for further education and clarification. I'm rather knowledgeable about resin casting and mold making, and familiar with some aspects of toolmaking, but I appreciate it when someone with Dennis' background takes the opportunity to broaden my knowledge about his area of expertise. It's not a slam at the original post (which I found most useful and informative) as it is an extension of it. We all benefit.

Tom Madden
Thanks Tom. Someone must be having a bad day, because I didn't even think I was commenting on the price of tea in China.

Just my general views based on years of experience.

Dennis


Andy Harman
 

At 03:29 PM 5/15/2012 -0500, you wrote:
I remember a discussion about case hardened tools that occurred back around
1965 between my father and one of my friends who was just about finished
with his tool and die apprenticeship. The problem was they were both talking
different eras with dad's experience going back to WWII and beyond.
My pet peeve is the term OEM. My eyes glaze over when I hear it. I know what the acronym stands for, but the term OEM is used to mean actual manufacturer (as in, factory), the brand who rebadges it, the middle man between the two, the dealer, a description of an inferior version of name brand product ("Microsoft OEM mouse"), or even a verb ("we OEM it to them"). Thus "We are the OEM" is utterly meaningless without clarification. I first discovered this when the company I worked for became an OEM for Texas Instruments. Which meant that we were a *dealer*, not a manufacturer, according to their terminology. All downhill from there... based on how I've seen that term used, the Chinese factory, Athearn, Horizon, my local hobby shop, and perhaps even the shipping company could end up being badged an OEM. Which makes the UPS driver an "OEMmer".... too many terms have lost their original meaning or have become generic. Like "modem" for "any box between my computer and a comm line".... and the term "digital modem" is an oxymoron.

Andy


Jeff Shultz <jeff@...>
 

Original Equipment Manufacturer. So if you bought an OEM part, it was intended for sale to someone who would package (and possibly more importantly _support_) it as part of a larger item. The idea being that you were getting the same quality part, just without the fancy packaging, possibly all the documentation, and the level of markup of the same part sold as retail.
--
Jeff Shultz
www.shultzinfosystems.com

Andy Harman <gsgondola@...> wrote:

At 03:29 PM 5/15/2012 -0500, you wrote:
I remember a discussion about case hardened tools that occurred back around
1965 between my father and one of my friends who was just about finished
with his tool and die apprenticeship. The problem was they were both talking
different eras with dad's experience going back to WWII and beyond.
My pet peeve is the term OEM. My eyes glaze over when I hear it. I know
what the acronym stands for, but the term OEM is used to mean actual
manufacturer (as in, factory), the brand who rebadges it, the middle man
between the two, the dealer, a description of an inferior version of name
brand product ("Microsoft OEM mouse"), or even a verb ("we OEM it to
them"). Thus "We are the OEM" is utterly meaningless without
clarification. I first discovered this when the company I worked for
became an OEM for Texas Instruments. Which meant that we were a *dealer*,
not a manufacturer, according to their terminology. All downhill from
there... based on how I've seen that term used, the Chinese factory,
Athearn, Horizon, my local hobby shop, and perhaps even the shipping
company could end up being badged an OEM. Which makes the UPS driver an
"OEMmer".... too many terms have lost their original meaning or have
become generic. Like "modem" for "any box between my computer and a comm
line".... and the term "digital modem" is an oxymoron.

Andy


Andy Harman
 

At 08:16 AM 5/17/2012 -0700, you wrote:
Original Equipment Manufacturer.
As I said, I know what the acronym stands for.

So if you bought an OEM part, it was intended for sale to someone who would package (and possibly more importantly _support_) it as part of a larger item. The idea being that you were getting the same quality part, just without the fancy packaging, possibly all the documentation, and the level of markup of the same part sold as retail.
That's your definition. I'll add it to the list :-)

Andy


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Andy Harman <gsgondola@...> wrote:

At 08:16 AM 5/17/2012 -0700, you wrote:
Original Equipment Manufacturer.
As I said, I know what the acronym stands for.

So if you bought an OEM part, it was intended for sale to someone who
would package (and possibly more importantly _support_) it as part of a
larger item. The idea being that you were getting the same quality part,
just without the fancy packaging, possibly all the documentation, and the
level of markup of the same part sold as retail.
That's your definition. I'll add it to the list :-)

Andy

In the model railroad industry, back in what is fast becoming the distant past, OEM, and "OEM pricing" was used to denote the components one manufacturer would supply to another for use in his kits. The pars were first rate parts, but with no additional work; bulk packed, often counted by weight, maybe not clipped if the parts required clipping from the runner. The price was expected to be wholesale, with most of the profit wrung out, to allow the final manufacturer to make the profit on his product. It was also understood that parts sold at this price were not to be packaged and sold as parts in competition with the OEM's own parts line.

All that's changed, for the most part, because none of the people you can get on the phone in North America are really the OEM any longer; they are all importers that have goods manufactured under contract elsewhere.

Dennis


Mikebrock
 

Dennis Storzek writes:

"All that's changed, for the most part, because none of the people you can get on the phone in North America are really the OEM any longer; they are all importers that have goods manufactured under contract elsewhere."

I won't argue with the comment "...for the most part", but I will disagree with the notion that "none" of the people that you can get on the phone in North America are really OEM. Certainly I can get on the phone with Jon Cagle of SC&F and Jon makes his own parts...even supplying the Shake N Take with parts. Does he make all of his parts? No, but he certainly makes most.

Mike Brock


Andy Harman
 

At 03:03 PM 5/18/2012 +0000, you wrote:

In the model railroad industry, back in what is fast becoming the distant past, OEM, and "OEM pricing" was used to denote the components one manufacturer would supply to another for use in his kits. The pars were first rate parts, but with no additional work; bulk packed, often counted by weight, maybe not clipped if the parts required clipping from the runner.
Added to the list...

I can give one really glaring counter-example. In the mid 90s I bought wholesale computer components from an importer/warehouse operation to build PCs for my customers. Much of the stuff was generic but they offered a "Microsoft OEM Mouse". At the time Microsoft's ubiquitous "Dove bar" mouse was well above everybody else's in quality and price - Logitech's had all the grace of a sewing machine pedal. But the Microsoft Mouse had a sticker-shock price of $99 and a best street price of $69 or so. The $25 "OEM mouse" was supposed to be as you described, a "first rate part" without retail packaging, for me to bundle with the computer I was building.&#92;. It had the same shape, but a slightly different finish and grossly inferior guts. There are probably still shards lurking under the floorboards of my old house where I spiked one into the kitchen floor - after spinning it around on its cord to build up speed. It was a piece of garbage.

As I said, it's a term used indiscriminantly since the 70s, and probably being used in the computer industry was the final nail in the coffin of meaningful definition - originally it probably did describe what Dennis is describing, although it's really a misnomer even in that context. In literal sense, OEM describes the entity who actually manufactures the part/product - not the product itself, the package, the process, the retailer, or any middleman. But that's taking the acronym literally, which nobody ever does.

Invariably when I bring up this topic, I get inundated with definitions which are quite clear to the definer, but of course all different from each other - thus proving my point. Terms change and evolve all the time, and I accept that - but sometimes they simply dissolve to the point they have no meaning. If somebody wants to do business with me and uses the term OEM, I have to ask them to explain WTF it means in their context, and it never refers to the entity that is the "original equipment manufacturer". So I gotta call BS.

Andy


Andy Harman
 

At 11:12 AM 5/18/2012 -0400, you wrote:

I won't argue with the comment "...for the most part", but I will disagree
with the notion that "none" of the people that you can get on the phone in
North America are really OEM. Certainly I can get on the phone with Jon
Cagle of SC&F and Jon makes his own parts...even supplying the Shake N Take
with parts. Does he make all of his parts? No, but he certainly makes most.
Ah but... Jon who IS an OEM in the literal definition, does not call himself one. That is in a nutshell the problem with the term. It's not used as a self-description by entities that actually fit, and with annoying frequency but those that don't. And its use as a verb is baffling, and I suspect intentionally so - certainly it was a salesman obscuring the origin of his product who first said "We OEM it from them".

The musical instrument business has a slightly vague but ultimately more succinct term... "Stencil". Basically any rebadging of another manufacturer's product. For instance, I have a Wurlitzer C-melody saxophone. Wurlitzer didn't make saxophones, but historians call it a "Conn Stencil", which means it was made by Conn, but "stenciled" with the Wurlitzer name. It's fairly consistent in its usage - as is the similar term "rebadging". If you applied the OEM acronym to this example literally, it would describe the Conn company, and nothing else. Not the instrument, not Wurlitzer, not the dealership, not the process, not the contract, not the horse it rode in on.

At any rate, my point is, if you use the term OEM in a sentence I will ask you to explain and clarify it, every time. And I'm sure it will be another entry on my list, or at least a variant :-)

Andy


Tom Madden
 

Andy Harman wrote:

Ah but... Jon [Cagle] who IS an OEM in the literal definition, does not call
himself one.
I suspect, in the case Mike cited, that Jon considers himself a subcontractor. That is, he is providing specialty cast parts that are _not_ part of his own product line, to another party. Unless special arrangements are made, Jon wouldn't be able to add those parts to his line. This is different from Dennis' example.

Tom "just adding to the confusion" Madden


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "pullmanboss" <pullmanboss@...> wrote:

Andy Harman wrote:

Ah but... Jon [Cagle] who IS an OEM in the literal definition, does not call
himself one.
I suspect, in the case Mike cited, that Jon considers himself a subcontractor. That is, he is providing specialty cast parts that are _not_ part of his own product line, to another party. Unless special arrangements are made, Jon wouldn't be able to add those parts to his line. This is different from Dennis' example.

Tom "just adding to the confusion" Madden
Tom has it right, at least as far as the model railroad industry is concerned (and who really cares about computers or musical instruments?) Accurail sells, or has sold trucks, couplers, coupler boxes, wheels, and occasionally car floors to other manufacturers on an OEM basis. These are all our standard parts... it's up to the purchaser to determine if they are suitable for his purpose. We've also custom molded trucks with different bolster dimensions foe MDC and CB&T in the past, but strictly speaking, these aren't OEM sales, because we can't take those parts out of our stock; we have to set up the mold with special components made special for just this job, and the purchaser has to take the whole part run... which means all the set-up costs get charged to his run.

Jon Cagle is in the same class as Tom is himself... a resin caster who will do custom work. Tom did a little run of parts for me some years ago, from my patterns, for use in some Soo Line society passenger car kits. But they weren't a standard part in Tom's line.

It's those set-up charges that keep some of the neat recent parts out of the mainstream kits. If a manufacturer needs 8,000 parts, we can easily either ship from stock, or leave the tool in the press an extra day next time we run the part, and those parts will be almost the same cost as we pay to put them in our own kits. To the little guys, that 8,000 part order is a major run, and they think that's what's going to pay for the tool. There is no economy of scale beyond the run we are asking for, and quite frankly, if I have to pay for someone else's tool, I'd rather just build it myself. That way, I know that the same parts will be available in the future.

Which is another reason that OEM doesn't work well with parts from China.

Dennis