I am currently working on patterns for a Double Sheathed boxcar with
wood doors and after having mostly finished with its ends and roof,
which I had drawings for, I am now focusing on the side pattern, for
which there are no drawings. I have many photos to support what I am
doing, and as I look at these, it is clear the sides are sheathed
with something I only know as "Beaded Ceiling" because it was used on
the ceiling of porches, in the South for sure, and I had in a house I
once owned for both porches as well as "Wains Coating" (sp?) in its
kitchen.

This is not the first time I have noticed this T&G material used on
DS sheathed box and refrigerator cars. I think that the boards were
"about" 5 1/2 inches wide (when nailed together) with the bead milled
in the center of the face of each board. The doors OTOH are narrower
T&G boards and are not the beaded stock.

I have gone online trying to find out the dimensions for these two
materials but knowing some of these standards may have changes over
time, plus I do not know the real or technical term for the "beaded"
product. I am hoping someone may just know off the top of the head--
Dennis Storzek are you there?--the dimensions for these T&G materials
during the 1920-40's?

I know the "beaded" effect cannot be modeled in HO but since in
reality the sheathing looks like slightly narrower T&G boards, I am
hoping I can find among the Evergreen line, which between their
Freight and Passenger Car sheets offers 7 different groove spacings,
that will permit me to come close and allow me to use slightly
different widths for the doors and sides.

Thanks for your attention and potential help!

Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727-470-9930
fgexbill@...

Bill,
You might want to check with Art Hundhausen of Silver Crash Car Works,
http://www.silvercrashcarworks.com , who makes all of his master molds
using the beaded boards for accurate TOC car models for sources of these
type of plastic sidings.
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

Bill Welch wrote:

Bill, I have no idea what it is called but for years I have called it "center V-groove" Siding or CVG in my notes. I have measured this siding at the Colorado RR Museum on ACDX 5400 which I found to be 5 1/4 with the center v-groove. Divide this by two and you get 2 5/8 which is .030 in HO. The groove depth at the center was estimated to be 1/8". None of the groove depths that I measured there were over 1/4". Which means that our HO scale stock is pretty deep. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

To: STMFC@...
From: robsmom@...
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 13:53:43 -0600
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Sorting out T&G board materials and widths used on DS house car side sheathing and wood doors


























Bill,

You might want to check with Art Hundhausen of Silver Crash Car Works,

http://www.silvercrashcarworks.com , who makes all of his master molds

using the beaded boards for accurate TOC car models for sources of these

type of plastic sidings.

Tom VanWormer

Monument CO



Bill Welch wrote:

I am currently working on patterns for a Double Sheathed boxcar with

wood doors and after having mostly finished with its ends and roof,

which I had drawings for, I am now focusing on the side pattern, for

which there are no drawings. I have many photos to support what I am

doing, and as I look at these, it is clear the sides are sheathed

with something I only know as "Beaded Ceiling" because it was used on

the ceiling of porches, in the South for sure, and I had in a house I

once owned for both porches as well as "Wains Coating" (sp?) in its

kitchen.

This is not the first time I have noticed this T&G material used on

DS sheathed box and refrigerator cars. I think that the boards were

"about" 5 1/2 inches wide (when nailed together) with the bead milled

in the center of the face of each board. The doors OTOH are narrower

T&G boards and are not the beaded stock.

I have gone online trying to find out the dimensions for these two

materials but knowing some of these standards may have changes over

time, plus I do not know the real or technical term for the "beaded"

product. I am hoping someone may just know off the top of the head--

Dennis Storzek are you there?--the dimensions for these T&G materials

during the 1920-40's?

I know the "beaded" effect cannot be modeled in HO but since in

reality the sheathing looks like slightly narrower T&G boards, I am

hoping I can find among the Evergreen line, which between their

Freight and Passenger Car sheets offers 7 different groove spacings,

that will permit me to come close and allow me to use slightly

different widths for the doors and sides.

Thanks for your attention and potential help!

Bill Welch

2225 Nursery Road; #20-104

Clearwater, FL 33764-7622

727-470-9930

fgexbill@... <mailto:fgexbill%40tampabay.rr.com>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

I am currently working on patterns for a Double Sheathed boxcar with
wood doors and after having mostly finished with its ends and roof,
which I had drawings for, I am now focusing on the side pattern, for
which there are no drawings. I have many photos to support what I am
doing, and as I look at these, it is clear the sides are sheathed
with something I only know as "Beaded Ceiling" because it was used on
the ceiling of porches, in the South for sure, and I had in a house I
once owned for both porches as well as "Wains Coating" (sp?) in its
kitchen.

Bill,

Do you mean this pattern:

http://www.randallbrothers.com/pages/125_cd/_Plots/39-1.pdf

Yes the proper name is "beaded ceiling", unless it has the pattern milled on both sides, in which case it's "beaded partition" (because you can use it in framed panels that show from both sides.)

It looks like standard V groove, but with an extra half round bead in the root of the V. It is NOT a standard ARA / AAR pattern, but it was used on some cars.

If I recall correctly, back in the era we are talking about the material would have been 5-1/4" face, same dimension as the AAR double board car siding.

However, since this is NOT a standard AAR mill shape, and there WERE other widths available to the architectural trade, you can't just assume it was the 5-1/4 face stock, you'll need to confirm the width by some other means.

Dennis

Dennis, Bill, I just checked the Randall Bros. reference that you cited and that is not what I have seen. At the Colorado RR Museum the center groove was just that: a center "V" groove, hence my 5 1/4" CVG abbreviation for this type of siding. Using a bead on freight car siding would seem, to me at least, a bit of overkill. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

To: STMFC@...
From: destorzek@...
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 04:01:19 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sorting out T&G board materials and widths used on DS house car side sheathing and wood doors






























--- In STMFC@..., Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

I am currently working on patterns for a Double Sheathed boxcar with

wood doors and after having mostly finished with its ends and roof,

which I had drawings for, I am now focusing on the side pattern, for

which there are no drawings. I have many photos to support what I am

doing, and as I look at these, it is clear the sides are sheathed

with something I only know as "Beaded Ceiling" because it was used on

the ceiling of porches, in the South for sure, and I had in a house I

once owned for both porches as well as "Wains Coating" (sp?) in its

kitchen.

Bill,



Do you mean this pattern:



http://www.randallbrothers.com/pages/125_cd/_Plots/39-1.pdf



Yes the proper name is "beaded ceiling", unless it has the pattern milled on both sides, in which case it's "beaded partition" (because you can use it in framed panels that show from both sides.)



It looks like standard V groove, but with an extra half round bead in the root of the V. It is NOT a standard ARA / AAR pattern, but it was used on some cars.



If I recall correctly, back in the era we are talking about the material would have been 5-1/4" face, same dimension as the AAR double board car siding.



However, since this is NOT a standard AAR mill shape, and there WERE other widths available to the architectural trade, you can't just assume it was the 5-1/4 face stock, you'll need to confirm the width by some other means.



Dennis

Frank,

It sounds to me like you are speaking of standard car siding. Most wood
caboose' with what looks like 2 1/2' "grooved" siding was actually 5" (plus
the tongue) tongue-in-groove planks with a V-groove in the center. The outer
edges are beveled so that when two planks are put together the edges form
another V-groove that matches the center groove.

http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/neoliticman/Carsiding.jpg

In 12" to the foot terms this stuff is available from lumber dealers today.
My last house had a small den with #2 (tight knots) car siding walls and
ceiling. Looked great but when I had to replace some due to a water leak
that led to window replacement, the new stuff was 1/2 " narrower than the
late 1940's planks used when it was built. So I had to make my own so that
the horizontal planks below the window line would be the same where they met
at the corner. The house was also built with 2X4's that measured 2X4. I
gotta tell you that room with a light (Pecan IIRC) stain then varnished car
siding looked just superb.

John Hagen

John, The drawing that you sent is what I saw/measured except that it was 5 1/4 groove to groove. That gives 2 5/8 which is .030 in HO, which as it turns out is available from EvG. It seems to me that most DS cars were sheathed with 3 1/4 (.037 in HO) but lots of FGEX and Sou Ry cars used the 5 1/4 CVG, plus some others of course. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

To: STMFC@...
From: sprinthag@...
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 12:39:27 -0500
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Sorting out T&G board materials and widths used on DS house car side sheathing and wood doors


























Frank,



It sounds to me like you are speaking of standard car siding. Most wood

caboose' with what looks like 2 1/2' "grooved" siding was actually 5" (plus

the tongue) tongue-in-groove planks with a V-groove in the center. The outer

edges are beveled so that when two planks are put together the edges form

another V-groove that matches the center groove.



http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/neoliticman/Carsiding.jpg



In 12" to the foot terms this stuff is available from lumber dealers today.

My last house had a small den with #2 (tight knots) car siding walls and

ceiling. Looked great but when I had to replace some due to a water leak

that led to window replacement, the new stuff was 1/2 " narrower than the

late 1940's planks used when it was built. So I had to make my own so that

the horizontal planks below the window line would be the same where they met

at the corner. The house was also built with 2X4's that measured 2X4. I

gotta tell you that room with a light (Pecan IIRC) stain then varnished car

siding looked just superb.



John Hagen

--- In STMFC@..., FRANK PEACOCK <frank3112@...> wrote:

Dennis, Bill, I just checked the Randall Bros. reference that you cited and that is not what I have seen. At the Colorado RR Museum the center groove was just that: a center "V" groove, hence my 5 1/4" CVG abbreviation for this type of siding. Using a bead on freight car siding would seem, to me at least, a bit of overkill. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

Frank,

Has it occurred to you that what you are talking about is not what Bill was asking about? Bill specifically mentioned the bead, and tentatively used the name "beaded ceiling". I just confirmed the name and got him some dimensions.

What you are describing is the wider of the two standard patterns for car siding published by the MCB / ARA/ AAR, with drawings presented in just about every Car Builder's Cyc. published during the twentieth century. Only the wider pattern had the central groove. Misinterpreting the drawing note "5-1/4" D&M" has led more than one model manufacturer to produce models with boards twice as wide as they should be. I thought we were past that, and everyone knew that the 5-1/4" wide car siding with the central V groove was an AAR standard.

But, Bill specifically asked about the bead board. I have no idea what his prototype is, since the use of this material on freight cars was rather rare, but it certainly sounds like he knows what he is talking about.

Dennis

Dennis, Actually, what Bill was/is talking about is some sort of groove in the center of a wider board. His reference to beaded board came not from a freight car but from his familiarity with a beaded board used in his ceiling. I doubt that any of us can tell from a photo what type of groove it is, but I bet that it is the AAR std 5 1/4" board. The drawing in the 1937 CBC p.338, actually shows 5 3/16", guess I missed that, I thought it was 5 1/4". By the way the groove depth is shown to be 3/32" which is, I think, a lot shallower than what we can get from EvG. I wonder how close we can come to that before our paint would obliterate the groove? Our siding does look a little course, at least to my eye. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

To: STMFC@...
From: destorzek@...
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:45:14 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sorting out T&G board materials and widths used on DS house car side sheathing and wood doors






























--- In STMFC@..., FRANK PEACOCK <frank3112@...> wrote:

Dennis, Bill, I just checked the Randall Bros. reference that you cited and that is not what I have seen. At the Colorado RR Museum the center groove was just that: a center "V" groove, hence my 5 1/4" CVG abbreviation for this type of siding. Using a bead on freight car siding would seem, to me at least, a bit of overkill. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

Frank,



Has it occurred to you that what you are talking about is not what Bill was asking about? Bill specifically mentioned the bead, and tentatively used the name "beaded ceiling". I just confirmed the name and got him some dimensions.



What you are describing is the wider of the two standard patterns for car siding published by the MCB / ARA/ AAR, with drawings presented in just about every Car Builder's Cyc. published during the twentieth century. Only the wider pattern had the central groove. Misinterpreting the drawing note "5-1/4" D&M" has led more than one model manufacturer to produce models with boards twice as wide as they should be. I thought we were past that, and everyone knew that the 5-1/4" wide car siding with the central V groove was an AAR standard.



But, Bill specifically asked about the bead board. I have no idea what his prototype is, since the use of this material on freight cars was rather rare, but it certainly sounds like he knows what he is talking about.



Dennis


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Friends

Frank is correct I think. I have poured over my photos for the car I am working on, blowing them up on the computer and all I can tell is there is definitely something milled into the center of the board. Before this discussion, I did not know there was a "V" groove board. Sorry for the confusion I caused, but a positive result nonetheless. I think the important thing for me is that I need to try the .030 groove space Evergreen material and see how it looks worked up as a Car side. Thanks to all that helped illuminate the subject.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Friends

Frank is correct I think. I have poured over my photos for the car I am working on, blowing them up on the computer and all I can tell is there is definitely something milled into the center of the board. Before this discussion, I did not know there was a "V" groove board. Sorry for the confusion I caused, but a positive result nonetheless. I think the important thing for me is that I need to try the .030 groove space Evergreen material and see how it looks worked up as a Car side. Thanks to all that helped illuminate the subject.

Bill Welch

Oh. Why didn't you say you ere looking for the dimension for the center V grove siding?

Back when I was doing the patterns for my Soo Line caboose kit, I made an interesting discovery... while the car bodies were universally sheathed with the 3-1/4" car siding, the cupolas were almost always, with few exceptions, done with the 5-1/4" center V groove material, which was visually finer looking. It appears that whoever wrote the spec.s felt that the apparent board size should be in keeping with the size of the area to be covered. And yes, I used the Evergreen scribed sheet with the .030" spacing for the cupola patterns.

Interestingly, in looking at many, many photos of Soo cabooses over the years, I've seen at least one where the corner of the body was repaired with beaded ceiling, likely from the local lumber yard, and possibly in an attempt to cover up a cornering collision where no report was made. The lumber yard material would physically fit, but looked weird.

This should be a lesson to people who try to determine dimensions by counting boards... both the 3-1/4" and 5-1/4" with the center V groove were standard material, and a double sheathed car could conceivably be sheathed in either.

Dennis

--- In STMFC@..., FRANK PEACOCK <frank3112@...> wrote:

...The drawing in the 1937 CBC p.338, actually shows 5 3/16", guess I missed that, I thought it was 5 1/4". By the way the groove depth is shown to be 3/32" which is, I think, a lot shallower than what we can get from EvG. I wonder how close we can come to that before our paint would obliterate the groove? Our siding does look a little course, at least to my eye. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

The drawing in the 1922 CBC shows a face width of 5-1/4", with the edge chamfers 3/16" wide and 1/8" deep. The central groove is not dimensioned, but I have no problem assuming it is equal to two of the edge chamfers back-to-back. These dimensions produce a grove with a 67° included angle, each facet is 33.5° from the face of the board.

I don't doubt that the dimensions changed over time. Assuming the width of the chamfer (which is what we are really concerned with most) is still 3/18", the 3/32" depth would produce a 53° included angle.

I have never been unhappy with the grooves in the smaller sizes of Evergreen styrene, in fact, I've copied them in my tool designs. Looking at my notes, the Evergreen grooves have an included angle of 90°, so they are a bit deeper than prototype, but are very close to scale width. Evergreen grooves were determined under a toolmaker's microscope to be .005" wide and .0025" deep. My 1922 example would scale out to .0043" wide and .0014" deep; your 1937 example would scale out to .0043" wide and .001" deep. I agree that at this point we are asking to lose the detail in the paint.

Dennis

Luckily one of the two nearby Hobby Shops had the .030 groove spaced Evergreen sheet in stock, both thicknesses, so I will have plenty of material to experiment with. I am planning to try the technique suggested by A.J. Hundhausen of Silver Crash Car works to scribe every other groove to replicate to look of the grooved boards.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Luckily one of the two nearby Hobby Shops had the .030 groove spaced Evergreen sheet in stock, both thicknesses, so I will have plenty of material to experiment with. I am planning to try the technique suggested by A.J. Hundhausen of Silver Crash Car works to scribe every other groove to replicate to look of the grooved boards.

Bill Welch

Why? Unless extremely decrepit, the double board material looks like individual boards. It's only after it begins to weather that one can see that the grain often runs across two "boards"; when the joints open up, the siding is ready to fall off the car.

The Malcolm "Furball" school of caricature modeling.

Dennis

I am retired, I have the time, I want to experiment and see if it gives a good effect w/o looking exaggerated or a caricature. If it does not give a good result, I won't use it and go w/the undoctored .030 instead.

Bill Welch

Dennis, With all due respect, the photographic evidence does not support that statement. If you look at Col. McCoid's photos especially the FGEX cars and some of the GM&O cars the double boards are obvious, i.e. every other board joint stands out. And he was taking these photos when the cars were well maintained and in some cases just painted. I do agree that if one is not careful modeling can become a caricature and that is not what I want to do. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

To: STMFC@...
From: fgexbill@...
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 22:22:07 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sorting out T&G board materials and widths used on DS house car side sheathing and wood doors


























I am retired, I have the time, I want to experiment and see if it gives a good effect w/o looking exaggerated or a caricature. If it does not give a good result, I won't use it and go w/the undoctored .030 instead.



Bill Welch



--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "lnbill" <fgexbill@> wrote:

Luckily one of the two nearby Hobby Shops had the .030 groove spaced Evergreen sheet in stock, both thicknesses, so I will have plenty of material to experiment with. I am planning to try the technique suggested by A.J. Hundhausen of Silver Crash Car works to scribe every other groove to replicate to look of the grooved boards.

Bill Welch

Why? Unless extremely decrepit, the double board material looks like individual boards. It's only after it begins to weather that one can see that the grain often runs across two "boards"; when the joints open up, the siding is ready to fall off the car.

The Malcolm "Furball" school of caricature modeling.

Dennis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Frank Peacock replied:


Dennis, With all due respect, the photographic evidence does not

support that statement. If you look at Col. McCoid's photos especially
the FGEX cars and some of the GM&O cars the double boards are obvious,
i.e. every other board joint stands out. And he was taking these photos
when the cars were well maintained and in some cases just painted.
I do agree that if one is not careful modeling can become a caricature
and that is not what I want to do. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Why? Unless extremely decrepit, the double board material looks like

individual boards. It's only after it begins to weather that one can see
that the grain often runs across two "boards"; when the joints open up,
the siding is ready to fall off the car.

The Malcolm "Furball" school of caricature modeling.

I recall we had this discussion before, but FWIW the siding is termed
"car siding" and one definition is:

"Car siding, is a tongue in groove board, some times cedar, some times
pine, with some decorative "v" cuts that adds some definition to the
siding. I have seen it in either 6" or 8" widths, and lengths of 12
feet. The siding can be installed both vertical or horizontal. If
horizontal, the tongue is usually on the top to avoid water retention &
rot."

I agree with Frank that cars with some age after re-siding one can see
some slight separation in the tongue in groove joint where as the milled
or decorative "v" shows no such separation. So the "effect" appears
between every "two boards". For a model one does not want to exaggerate
the effect.

Regards,

Bob Witt

Folks,

I'll note that in many photos of PRR cabin cars, the center V groove boards are obvious on cars where the paint weathers differentially. That is to say that 2 "boards" (ie one board with a center V) will be a different shade of freight car color than the next 2 "boards". This also shows with repairs. I really can't say I've ever noticed different sized grooves.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of lnbill [fgexbill@...]
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 5:22 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sorting out T&G board materials and widths used on DS house car side sheathing and wood doors

I am retired, I have the time, I want to experiment and see if it gives a good effect w/o looking exaggerated or a caricature. If it does not give a good result, I won't use it and go w/the undoctored .030 instead.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "lnbill" <fgexbill@> wrote:

Luckily one of the two nearby Hobby Shops had the .030 groove spaced Evergreen sheet in stock, both thicknesses, so I will have plenty of material to experiment with. I am planning to try the technique suggested by A.J. Hundhausen of Silver Crash Car works to scribe every other groove to replicate to look of the grooved boards.

Bill Welch

Why? Unless extremely decrepit, the double board material looks like individual boards. It's only after it begins to weather that one can see that the grain often runs across two "boards"; when the joints open up, the siding is ready to fall off the car.

The Malcolm "Furball" school of caricature modeling.

Dennis

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In STMFC@..., FRANK PEACOCK <frank3112@...> wrote:

Dennis, With all due respect, the photographic evidence does not support that statement. If you look at Col. McCoid's photos especially the FGEX cars and some of the GM&O cars the double boards are obvious, i.e. every other board joint stands out. And he was taking these photos when the cars were well maintained and in some cases just painted. I do agree that if one is not careful modeling can become a caricature and that is not what I want to do. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

Looking for something else today, and found a series of photos that illustrate a couple points.

Gaps between siding boards isn't because of age or weather... it's due to improper drying of the material. Millwork is customarily dried to a moisture content as low as, or preferably lower than it will see in service. That way, after the material was applied it would swell tighter, and stay tight. If photos of FGE cars typically show wider gaps at the actual joints on center V groove siding, maybe they typically had lousy quality control on their material, and you have discovered a unique FGE spotting feature. Myself, I've never noticed this, and I tend to look for the telltale signs of the center V groove siding, because I know the dimension is different.

Here are a set of photos of a very weather beaten NP double sheathed car:

http://www.irm.org/gallery/NP49444

If you look along the bottom edge, you can see it's sheathed in center groove material, because you can see each board that has slipped down as the nails failed looks like a pair of boards. However, as bad as this siding is, there is very little evidence of unequal gaps.

Also, if you look closely, especially at the close-up photo of the air brake reservoir, you will note that the siding on this car, at least parts of it, is of the beaded pattern, which is what I originally thought Bill was asking about.

Dennis