It's been suggested that it would be nice if Evergreen made hat section. Can anyone supply drawings and/or dimensions for this?

I wonder also how standardized hat section was. Any opinions?

Are there other "special shapes" that Evergreen could produce that would be useful?


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars. Up to now, the only scratchbuilding option is to
build them up from individual strips of styrene.



Nelson Moyer

Nelson,
I believe that Northeastern makes them in the real scratchbuilding
material, wood!
Chuck Hladik

I'll start by saying that I know very little about how Evergreen styrene is manufactured.

However, it seems that making hat- or Z- sections WITH AN ACCEPTABLY THIN cross-section would be very very difficult.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 1:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Evergreen--hat section? And more?



Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars. Up to now, the only scratchbuilding option is to
build them up from individual strips of styrene.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of
spsalso
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:09 PM
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Evergreen--hat section? And more?

It's been suggested that it would be nice if Evergreen made hat section. Can
anyone supply drawings and/or dimensions for this?

I wonder also how standardized hat section was. Any opinions?

Are there other "special shapes" that Evergreen could produce that would be
useful?

Ed

Edward Sutorik

Plastruct makes Styrene zee strips in 1/16", 3/32", 1/8", 3/16", and 1/4".
Walthers has them.

Northeastern Scale Lumber has basswood zees. They are very thin. I soak
them with thin CA after they are glued in place. They look like metal when
they are primed and painted.

Zees are also available in brass (K & S or Special Shapes) though they I
don't think they are as crisp as the Styrene and basswood zees.

Tom Houle

Plastruct makes a Zee section, but I believe the smallest size is too big for HO. I have had to use the strip method myself, I make a couple of full lengths and use my Chopper.
 
It would be nice if Plastruct, Evergreen or even Midwest add more specialized styrene shapes.
 
Rich Christie


________________________________
From: "RUTLANDRS@..." <RUTLANDRS@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Evergreen--hat section? And more?



 

Nelson,
I believe that Northeastern makes them in the real scratchbuilding
material, wood!
Chuck Hladik


In a message dated 6/14/2012 4:42:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ku0a@... writes:

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars. Up to now, the only scratchbuilding option is to
build them up from individual strips of styrene.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
[mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ] On Behalf Of
spsalso
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:09 PM
To: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
Subject: [STMFC] Evergreen--hat section? And more?

It's been suggested that it would be nice if Evergreen made hat section.
Can
anyone supply drawings and/or dimensions for this?

I wonder also how standardized hat section was. Any opinions?

Are there other "special shapes" that Evergreen could produce that would be
useful?

Ed

Edward Sutorik

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are a couple of problems with Northeastern Zs. They measure 3/64",
which is a little too big in HO, and it's hard to make wood look like steel.
I don't know if the technology is developed enough to produce styrene Zs,
but HO scale Zs would be a nice addition to a fine product line.



Nelson

Nelson,

Reread #109674 from Tom Houle on how he makes wood Z material look like steel. Admittedly Tom works in O scale but still..

John Hagen

Chuck is correct. My last order from Northeastern Scale Models, Inc. included the "Z" structural shapes. 1/16" Zees

You can access their on-line catalog at: http://www.northeasternscalelumber.com/uploads/pdfs/NESLCatalog_2008.pdf
Pricelist: http://www.northeasternscalelumber.com/uploads/pdfs/Retail%20Price%20List%202011.pdf

Northeastern Scale Models, INC.
99 Cross Street
Metheun, MA 01844

1-978-688-6019
1-800-343-2094

Hope this helps, Later, Dave S.

Evergreen could make various size ribs for covered hoppers and more modern boxcars.  Modelers could trim them to size.
 
Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.
Sunbury, Pa.


________________________________
From: "sartherdj@..." <sartherdj@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Evergreen--hat section? And more?


 



Chuck is correct. My last order from Northeastern Scale Models, Inc. included the "Z" structural shapes. 1/16" Zees

You can access their on-line catalog at: http://www.northeasternscalelumber.com/uploads/pdfs/NESLCatalog_2008.pdf
Pricelist: http://www.northeasternscalelumber.com/uploads/pdfs/Retail%20Price%20List%202011.pdf

Northeastern Scale Models, INC.
99 Cross Street
Metheun, MA 01844

1-978-688-6019
1-800-343-2094

Hope this helps, Later, Dave S.

-----Original Message-----
From: RUTLANDRS <mailto:RUTLANDRS%40aol.com>
To: STMFC <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Nelson,
I believe that Northeastern makes them in the real scratchbuilding
material, wood!
Chuck Hladik

In a message dated 6/14/2012 4:42:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mailto:ku0a%40mchsi.com writes:

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars. Up to now, the only scratchbuilding option is to
build them up from individual strips of styrene.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com)
[mailto:mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf Of
spsalso
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:09 PM
To: mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com)
Subject: [STMFC] Evergreen--hat section? And more?

It's been suggested that it would be nice if Evergreen made hat section.
Can
anyone supply drawings and/or dimensions for this?

I wonder also how standardized hat section was. Any opinions?

Are there other "special shapes" that Evergreen could produce that would be
useful?

Ed

Edward Sutorik

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a much simpler idea. If Evergreen can make sheet in black,
why not I-beams in dark grey and tubes in black? I think these will
outsell hat section about 100 to 1...

Tim O'Connor

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

I have a much simpler idea. If Evergreen can make sheet in black,
why not I-beams in dark grey and tubes in black? I think these will
outsell hat section about 100 to 1...

Tim O'Connor

Evergreen doesn't make sheet in black... they BUY black sheet, cut it to smaller sizes, package it, and re-sell it. They could do the same with gray, if gray extruded sheets were available, but I don't think they are. The could make their strips and shapes from the black sheet, but I'm not sure that working with black would be any easier than working with white, and would be difficult to paint.

I'll second the motion for Z section, but in sizes smaller than 1/16", which seems to be their smallest size for angles and channels, too. Actually, it's .060", which scales out to 5-1/4" in HO scale. That's only good for the middle end posts on some boxcars. Most car framing was either 3" or 3-1/2" (can't find a reference quickly), .040" would work well for the later. .030" and .040" would be useful sizes for angles and channels, too.

"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis

Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'

And leave an acceptably thin flange? That's the part that I can't imagine. I can't even imagine extruding a shape (from liquid styrene) that has flanges that are 0.010" or thinner.

I hope Dennis can comment, since my imagination is severely limited. :)

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 9:33 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?



Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'

"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis

I made something like this to shape aluminum. In my case, I made it of steel and in two pieces. I chose the two-piece method because I didn't think there'd be a chance in hell in doing the "draw" in a single pull. It took multiple times as I gradually closed the two pieces together. I think if you were doing this thing "at home" (as I did), that pulling a plastic strip through would take multiple pulls, too; as the plastic would probably tear if you tried it with one pull.

While this method would never be commercially viable, it could certainly occupy a few leisurely hours at home.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars.

Still a sticking point after 50 years!!! I got into N Scale when I
realized that even Northeastern Z-channel was too big to scratchbuild the
stock cars, boxcars, and gons I would need to model the CB&Q properly...on
the theory that nobody in their right mind would ever attempt to model a
prototype in N.

That was back in the days before fabricating fine structural shapes out of
styrene was not an option and RP production of entire carbodies wasn't even
a dream.

Charlie Vlk

--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

And leave an acceptably thin flange? That's the part that I can't imagine. I can't even imagine extruding a shape (from liquid styrene) that has flanges that are 0.010" or thinner.

I hope Dennis can comment, since my imagination is severely limited. :)

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 9:33 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?



Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'

Let me star with this premise... I don't think Evergreen strips and shapes are extruded, I think they are milled, the same basic technique as Northeastern milled shapes, although not on the same machinery. Just as background, years ago Evergreen used to have the booth adjacent to Accurail at the Rosemont show, and while I never meant the owner, I did have dinner with their salesman a couple times. One night over dinner and drinks (lotsa drinks) I was reverse engineering what I thought their "secret process" might be, and the guy said, "well, of course I can't disclose our process, but you're close." Of course, as always, the devil is in the details, and so I don't feel bad making my next statements, because just because someone knows how something is done, doesn't mean they can do it without countless hours of experimentation to work out the bugs.

Anyone familiar with a horizontal milling machine? Basically a lead-screw driven table that passes under an arbor (shaft) that is accurately spaced above the table, and adjustable for depth of cut. The easiest way to cut a sheet of material into accurate width strips is to gang up a whole bunch of cutters (in this case slotting saws) spaced apart by accurately sized spaces, and run a sheet fastened to the table through. If you look at the thicker Evergreen pieces under magnification, you will see that two opposite surfaces have the "pebble finish" of plain sheet, while the other two have faint diagonal lines, basically saw swirls, except the saw is large in relation to the thickness of the sheet, so you don't see much curvature in the marks.

If you don't run the cutters all the way through the thickness of the sheet, you wind up with a sheet with a series of grooves, such as the base sheet for Evergreen standing seam roof. If you substitute milling cutters ground to a point, you'll get V groove siding; Cutters with an angular surface the width of the boards yields clapboard siding. If you stack up a combination of properly sized cutters, saws, and spacers, you can turn a sheet into a bunch of angle strips, or channels. Do a preliminary operation on the other side of the sheet, and you can make H section. As an aside, this is the same way Special Shapes brass shapes are made. So you see, there is really no reason they can't make Z section except either no one has suggested it, or they don't think it will sell.

There may be some practical consideration as to why the don't do smaller shapes than .060", but I really suspect it's more the perception that smaller than that strips are visually the same. It would be nice if someone would convince them to add shapes cut from .040" sheet, and maybe even .030" sheet. .030" Z would be 4-3/4" in N scale, maybe acceptable. .020" would be 3-1/4", but flange thickness might be a problem.

The same reasoning goes to flange thickness... their finest seems to be .009", and may have been picked as much because standard cutters work out that way than for any other reason.

Keep in mind that any new changes from what they are doing now will likely require several grand in custom ground cutters, so I'm sure they don't take the consideration of new product lightly.

I always wanted to see them make .010" X .010", to add muntins to Grandt Line windows, but I wouldn't be able to see it now anyway :-(

Darned... forgot to sign the last message.

Dennis

Does "Z" channel have 90 degree corners (basically, two L's) or does it have acute (less than 90 degree) corners like the letter "Z"?

Either way, I agree Z channel is needed.

Tim O'Connor

Jeff you may never have built the Tichy rebuilt USRA box car then. :-)

This kit is completely injected molded, and includes door guides with a .010 slit which takes
an even thinner molded shim that is glued to the backside of the door -- this gives you a door
that slides in the door track like the prototype, but it is completely invisible when the door is
open and you look through at the back of a closed door on the opposite side.

My guess is that you can injection mold scale hat sections with flanges. One large mold probably
could make a hundred pieces including verticals and diagonals with and without gussets... And
maybe they could throw in some SEAM CAPS too, which is a part I dearly wish we had in styrene.

Tim O'