Topics

Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Aley, Jeff A
 

Tim,

If you want injection molded parts, then why bother Evergreen, who are not an injection-molding company? Why not find a mfr of plastic freight cars to do the hat-sections? You might even convince them to do ACCUrate RAIL.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of @timboconnor
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 11:49 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?



Jeff you may never have built the Tichy rebuilt USRA box car then. :-)

This kit is completely injected molded, and includes door guides with a .010 slit which takes
an even thinner molded shim that is glued to the backside of the door -- this gives you a door
that slides in the door track like the prototype, but it is completely invisible when the door is
open and you look through at the back of a closed door on the opposite side.

My guess is that you can injection mold scale hat sections with flanges. One large mold probably
could make a hundred pieces including verticals and diagonals with and without gussets... And
maybe they could throw in some SEAM CAPS too, which is a part I dearly wish we had in styrene.

Tim O'

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff A Aley" <Jeff.A.Aley@...<mailto:Jeff.A.Aley%40intel.com>>

And leave an acceptably thin flange? That's the part that I can't imagine. I can't even imagine extruding a shape (from liquid styrene) that has flanges that are 0.010" or thinner.

I hope Dennis can comment, since my imagination is severely limited. :)

Regards,

-Jeff

proto48er
 

Sorry - hit the send button too soon!

Here are the rest of the cabooses:

MP #997 bay window-cupola caboose. 3-1/4" V-groove siding on sides and ends. (off line in 1960's).

GH&SA #66 cupola caboose (CA?) 3-1/4" V-groove siding, with some 3" and 3-1/8" V-groove siding under the windows. (off line in late 1920's - demolished in mid-1970's).

SA&AP #915 cupola caboose 3-1/4" siding with 1/4" V-grooves. (off line in 1950's).

T&NO #320 (ex ML&T) cupola caboose with wide cupola (late 1940's rebuild) 3-3/16" V-groove siding with 1/2" wide groove.

M-K-T #835 cupola caboose 3-1/4" V-groove siding. (off line about 1960).

M-K-T #342 single-sheathed caboose/combine with Z-braces. 5-1/4" horizontal siding, no V-groove.


That is all the information at hand right now. Surely more than you wanted to know!!

Dennis - I am very impressed that you have a toolmaker's measuring microscope! I have a pair of them and love to play with them. Mine are a Titan Tool TM-IV and a Titan TM-10. The original reason for aquiring them has long passed, but it is fun to look at and measure train stuff with them!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:

Here are some CABOOSES:

MP #854 3-1/4" siding with 1/4" V-grooves (some boards are 3-3/8" wide). (original siding before restoration - in Kyle, Tx.)

MP #997 Bay window + cupola caboose.



A.T. Kott

proto48er
 

Guys -

Forgot one "mystery car" - TexMex #8943 (may have been an L&N car - says "L&N 5/24" on the trucks). 5" horizontal siding, no V-groove.


Here are some DOUBLE SHEATHED boxcars and a reefer:

SFRD #5124 Rr-37 (1945 rebuild) 3-1/8" siding with 3/16" grooves. (from early 1950's).

D&H #19607 3-1/4" V-groove vertical siding (before rebuilding).

GN #45278 3-1/8" V-groove siding on one complete side; 3-1/4" V-groove on the other. (off line in 1950's)

NKP #85000 class (not sure of number) 3" siding with 1/4" wide V-groove. (in Noblesville, Ind.)

GH&SA #33997 B-50-4 Harriman boxcar. 3-1/4" V-groove siding on sides and ends, with 3-1/4" V-groove boards in doors. (off line in late 1930's)

M-K-T #170144 3-1/4" siding with 1/4" wide and 1/8" deep V-grooves. (off line in late 1940's).

M-K-T #81631 3-1/4" V-groove siding. (off line in early 1930's).

M-K-T #84128 truss rod automobile boxcar 3-1/4" siding (off line in mid-1930's)

SA&AP #7001-7500 class ventilated car (still yellow) 3-1/8" V-groove siding in car ends; 3-1/4" V-groove siding with 1/2" V on the sides.

SA&AP #7877 ventilated boxcar (still yellow) 3-1/4" siding on sides and doors. (off line in late 1920's - at Lozier Canyon).

GH&SA #? boxcar with 3-1/8" siding on sides and doors. (was in Sanderson, Tx - demolished in mid 1970's) (off line in late 1920's)



Here are some CABOOSES:

MP #854 3-1/4" siding with 1/4" V-grooves (some boards are 3-3/8" wide). (original siding before restoration - in Kyle, Tx.)

MP #997 Bay window + cupola caboose.



A.T. Kott

proto48er
 

Guys -

Here are some actual measurements of siding on single-sheathed freight cars (boxcars):

ATSF Bx-12 #128604 (1)4-3/4" at the bottom of the car side, then (7)3-1/8", (6)3", (3)3-1/4", and (1)5" at the top of the car side. No V-groove. The hat-shaped braces had various dimensions, but were generally 8" wide and were made from 1/4" thick plate and the 2-3/4" hat section stood out 2-3/4". (probably dates to late 1940's)

C&S #13851 Z-braced boxcar (2)2-3/8" boards, with the remainder being 3" and 3-1/8" boards with no V-groove. (probably dates to about 1952)

GN #31000 class boxcar with Z-braces. 5" plain siding.

NKP #8099 war emergency boxcar with Z-braces. 5" plain siding. At Noblesville, Ind.)

I-GN #6342 single-sheathed boxcar with Z-braces. 5" horizontal siding, no V-groove. (dates to late 1940's)

MP #93000 single-sheathed boxcar with Z-braces. (18) 5" horizontal siding boards, no V-groove. (from plan)

M-K-T #79013 (22)5" boards and (1)4-1/2" board. No V-grooves. (dates from late 1940's)

M-K-T #77635 5" horizontal siding with no V-grooves; 3-1/4" vertical boards in doors (with V-grooves). (dates from late 1950's)

M-K-T #95680 5" and 4-7/8" horizontal boards with no V-grooves; 3" vertical boards in doors with V-grooves. (dates from late 1950's)

This is probably more than you wanted to know about single sheathed boxcar siding!

A.T. Kott

arved_grass
 

Saw one groove, flip it, saw the other. What's so stunning?

Arved Grass
Fleming Island, Florida

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:


I knew the strips were sawn because you can see the saw blade marks as Dennis pointed out.

But I am stunned that they make the I beams that way!

Gene Deimling
 

Evergreen appears to extrude their shapes. I have noticed die marks on a number of shapes. I believe Plastrut uses a similar process on their white polystyrene line of shapes.



Gene Deimling

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:


I knew the strips were sawn because you can see the saw blade marks as Dennis pointed out.

But I am stunned that they make the I beams that way!

----- Original Message -----
From: "spsalso" <Edwardsutorik@...>

I have recently spoken to an Evergreen rep (hence my topic). Everything they MAKE is sawn/milled. The sheet, of course, is not. The rods and tubes are certainly not. The half and quarter rounds are a tough call.

Edward Sutorik



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael Watnoski
 

Greetings,

I am wondering if the way to make hat sections is to vacuum form them from thin plastic. The blister packs that are commonly used for commercial products use this technology. The protective packaging used for some locomotive models shows that creativity of these manufacturers. Perhaps someone in the business could see if this is viable.

Michael

Tim O'Connor
 

I knew the strips were sawn because you can see the saw blade marks as Dennis pointed out.

But I am stunned that they make the I beams that way!

----- Original Message -----
From: "spsalso" <Edwardsutorik@...>

I have recently spoken to an Evergreen rep (hence my topic). Everything they MAKE is sawn/milled. The sheet, of course, is not. The rods and tubes are certainly not. The half and quarter rounds are a tough call.

Edward Sutorik

spsalso
 

I have recently spoken to an Evergreen rep (hence my topic). Everything they MAKE is sawn/milled. The sheet, of course, is not. The rods and tubes are certainly not. The half and quarter rounds are a tough call.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

drgwrail
 

There is no such thing as a Z channel in structural steel. They are just plain "Z's  There are channels, Z, angles, and Ts.  Check any engineering handbook and you can find the dimensions of standrad rolled sections.
 There are also special "railroad sections" such as thr "bulb angles that are used on the top edge of most gondolas.
 
Also large Z sections that are welded together to form the center beam of freight car underframes. I haven't looked at my well worn copy of "The Steel Handbook" but I think the shallow channel used as the side sill on many older box cars was a special railroad section

Plastistruct angles, etc are clearly cast or extruded. But while I don't really know, I think most all Evergreen sizes, andles, channels,etc. are milled or sawed.much like the Northeastern and other wood shapes.  On some sizes you can clearly see the marks from machining,
 
As far as I can see all the "hat sections" that modelers want are stampings on the real cars hence they don't appear in any catalog of rolled steel structural shapes.
 
Chuck Yungkurth
 
From: "@timboconnor" <@timboconnor>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Evergreen--hat section? And more?


 

Does "Z" channel have 90 degree corners (basically, two L's) or does it have acute (less than 90 degree) corners like the letter "Z"?

Either way, I agree Z channel is needed.

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Vlk" <mailto:cvlk%40comcast.net>

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars.

Still a sticking point after 50 years!!! I got into N Scale when I
realized that even Northeastern Z-channel was too big to scratchbuild the
stock cars, boxcars, and gons I would need to model the CB&Q properly...on
the theory that nobody in their right mind would ever attempt to model a
prototype in N.

That was back in the days before fabricating fine structural shapes out of
styrene was not an option and RP production of entire carbodies wasn't even
a dream.

Charlie Vlk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

railsnw@frontier.com <railsnw@...>
 

Exactly 90 degrees, at least on the 1 to 1 scale Northern Pacific single sheathed boxcars I have worked on restoring.

Richard Wilkens

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:


Does "Z" channel have 90 degree corners (basically, two L's) or does it have acute (less than 90 degree) corners like the letter "Z"?

Either way, I agree Z channel is needed.

Tim O'Connor


----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@...>

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars.

Still a sticking point after 50 years!!! I got into N Scale when I
realized that even Northeastern Z-channel was too big to scratchbuild the
stock cars, boxcars, and gons I would need to model the CB&Q properly...on
the theory that nobody in their right mind would ever attempt to model a
prototype in N.

That was back in the days before fabricating fine structural shapes out of
styrene was not an option and RP production of entire carbodies wasn't even
a dream.

Charlie Vlk



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jared Harper
 

Dennis,

Oh,oh, the freight car police are going to get you. They will probably kick you off the list. 8>)

Jared Harper
Athens, GA

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:

Darned... forgot to sign the last message.

Dennis

rdgbuff56
 

Even a few different size "hat sections" with overscale.010 flanges would save a lot of work.  Most of us use 0.10 anyhow.
 
Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.
sunbury, Pa.


________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <@timboconnor>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?



 


Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'

"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:


Does "Z" channel have 90 degree corners (basically, two L's)
Yes.

Dennis

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'
I just read Tim's message again, this time for content :-)

What he's asking for is a forming tool, kind of like a jeweler's draw plate, although it will have to form the styrene by scraping rather than drawing.

Yeah, it works. Years ago I used that technique to make the ribs for a corrugated end pattern. I clamped square styrene in a piece of Special shapes brass angle and scraped the exposed corner with a razor blade to get a triangular strip, then stoned a notch in the edge of a razor blade to form the round nose on the triangle. I've also used notches ground in the corner of a razor blade to scrape the ground molding shape into the edges of plastic shingle roofs so the edge didn't look so heavy.

The biggest problem is forming a tiny but accurately sized notch in a very hard material, although a wire EDM shop could do it easily. After that, it just takes a lot of time to scrape the strips to shape.

Dennis

Tim O'Connor
 

Jeff you may never have built the Tichy rebuilt USRA box car then. :-)

This kit is completely injected molded, and includes door guides with a .010 slit which takes
an even thinner molded shim that is glued to the backside of the door -- this gives you a door
that slides in the door track like the prototype, but it is completely invisible when the door is
open and you look through at the back of a closed door on the opposite side.

My guess is that you can injection mold scale hat sections with flanges. One large mold probably
could make a hundred pieces including verticals and diagonals with and without gussets... And
maybe they could throw in some SEAM CAPS too, which is a part I dearly wish we had in styrene.

Tim O'

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff A Aley" <Jeff.A.Aley@...>

And leave an acceptably thin flange? That's the part that I can't imagine. I can't even imagine extruding a shape (from liquid styrene) that has flanges that are 0.010" or thinner.

I hope Dennis can comment, since my imagination is severely limited. :)

Regards,

-Jeff

Tim O'Connor
 

Does "Z" channel have 90 degree corners (basically, two L's) or does it have acute (less than 90 degree) corners like the letter "Z"?

Either way, I agree Z channel is needed.

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@...>

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars.

Still a sticking point after 50 years!!! I got into N Scale when I
realized that even Northeastern Z-channel was too big to scratchbuild the
stock cars, boxcars, and gons I would need to model the CB&Q properly...on
the theory that nobody in their right mind would ever attempt to model a
prototype in N.

That was back in the days before fabricating fine structural shapes out of
styrene was not an option and RP production of entire carbodies wasn't even
a dream.

Charlie Vlk

Dennis Storzek
 

Darned... forgot to sign the last message.

Dennis

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

And leave an acceptably thin flange? That's the part that I can't imagine. I can't even imagine extruding a shape (from liquid styrene) that has flanges that are 0.010" or thinner.

I hope Dennis can comment, since my imagination is severely limited. :)

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 9:33 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?



Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'
Let me star with this premise... I don't think Evergreen strips and shapes are extruded, I think they are milled, the same basic technique as Northeastern milled shapes, although not on the same machinery. Just as background, years ago Evergreen used to have the booth adjacent to Accurail at the Rosemont show, and while I never meant the owner, I did have dinner with their salesman a couple times. One night over dinner and drinks (lotsa drinks) I was reverse engineering what I thought their "secret process" might be, and the guy said, "well, of course I can't disclose our process, but you're close." Of course, as always, the devil is in the details, and so I don't feel bad making my next statements, because just because someone knows how something is done, doesn't mean they can do it without countless hours of experimentation to work out the bugs.

Anyone familiar with a horizontal milling machine? Basically a lead-screw driven table that passes under an arbor (shaft) that is accurately spaced above the table, and adjustable for depth of cut. The easiest way to cut a sheet of material into accurate width strips is to gang up a whole bunch of cutters (in this case slotting saws) spaced apart by accurately sized spaces, and run a sheet fastened to the table through. If you look at the thicker Evergreen pieces under magnification, you will see that two opposite surfaces have the "pebble finish" of plain sheet, while the other two have faint diagonal lines, basically saw swirls, except the saw is large in relation to the thickness of the sheet, so you don't see much curvature in the marks.

If you don't run the cutters all the way through the thickness of the sheet, you wind up with a sheet with a series of grooves, such as the base sheet for Evergreen standing seam roof. If you substitute milling cutters ground to a point, you'll get V groove siding; Cutters with an angular surface the width of the boards yields clapboard siding. If you stack up a combination of properly sized cutters, saws, and spacers, you can turn a sheet into a bunch of angle strips, or channels. Do a preliminary operation on the other side of the sheet, and you can make H section. As an aside, this is the same way Special Shapes brass shapes are made. So you see, there is really no reason they can't make Z section except either no one has suggested it, or they don't think it will sell.

There may be some practical consideration as to why the don't do smaller shapes than .060", but I really suspect it's more the perception that smaller than that strips are visually the same. It would be nice if someone would convince them to add shapes cut from .040" sheet, and maybe even .030" sheet. .030" Z would be 4-3/4" in N scale, maybe acceptable. .020" would be 3-1/4", but flange thickness might be a problem.

The same reasoning goes to flange thickness... their finest seems to be .009", and may have been picked as much because standard cutters work out that way than for any other reason.

Keep in mind that any new changes from what they are doing now will likely require several grand in custom ground cutters, so I'm sure they don't take the consideration of new product lightly.

I always wanted to see them make .010" X .010", to add muntins to Grandt Line windows, but I wouldn't be able to see it now anyway :-(

Charlie Vlk
 

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars.

Still a sticking point after 50 years!!! I got into N Scale when I
realized that even Northeastern Z-channel was too big to scratchbuild the
stock cars, boxcars, and gons I would need to model the CB&Q properly...on
the theory that nobody in their right mind would ever attempt to model a
prototype in N.

That was back in the days before fabricating fine structural shapes out of
styrene was not an option and RP production of entire carbodies wasn't even
a dream.

Charlie Vlk