Topics

USRA 40-ton Boxcars rebuilt as FGE Refrigerator Cars?!


Bill Welch
 

On page 97 of "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" there is a photo of
FGEX 10857--a rebuild--that was part of the FGEX 10850-10999 series
(140 cars). The FGE Company information I have regarding rebuild
dates is in conflict. One source says 1932 and the other says 1937.
The side sheathing consists of two horizontal riveted panels on each
side of the doors, the top panel is roughly twice the size of the
bottom panel, a style replicated by FGEX 52680-52779, a group of 100
steel rebuilds on ex-PRR R7 reefer u/f's, and two series of new cars
built by FGE in 1939-40, FDEX 9250-9299 (50 cars) and FGEX
52780-52999 (5 cars) that are very similar to steel cars built by PFE
and ART as well as WFE (50 cars) and BRE (270 cars) before WWII. The
rebuilds have the Hutchins roof common on FGE/WFE/BRE System cars as
replacements.

What fascinates and confounds me is understanding the heritage of
these cars. Although I have no proof, given their combination of
5/5/5 Murphy ends, fishbelly u/f, and Andrews trucks, I believe
these cars may have originally been USRA DS 40-ton boxcars. One
possible weak link in my speculation are the trucks, since obviously
these were used under many cars unrelated to the USRA usage. However
Andrews trucks were very rare for FGE. In fact this is only group I
am aware of equipped with Andrews owned by FGE. Within the FGE/WFE/
BRE System, Burlington Refrigerator did use Andrews. I know of no
usage of this type by WFE. FGE however was a thrifty company and it
makes since to me they would not have replaced a perfectly good truck
if it was not necessary so I think that ends, underframes and trucks
all came on the original cars, wherever they came from and whatever
their source.

It would strengthen my argument if I could identify a plausible
Railroad source for these 140 rebuilds but in going through the
various articles and most recently the RP CYC articles and tables, I
cannot seem to find a possible source. I have long thought the 5/5/5
Murphy end was unique to the USRA boxcars but maybe not, meaning
perhaps other possible sources for these rebuilds.

I thought I would see if anyone on this list has a good scenario for
the origins of these cars? Maybe I have overlooked an owner of USRA
DS cars who disposed of 140 cars sometime in the early or mid 1930's.

Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727-470-9930
fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com


bill_d_goat
 

Very interesting. i thought I'd check on the possible publicatiuon of your FGE/WFE/BRE book.
Bill Williams


Bill Welch
 

I plan on publishing it.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "bill_d_goat" <billdgoat@...> wrote:


Very interesting. i thought I'd check on the possible publicatiuon of your FGE/WFE/BRE book.
Bill Williams


rwitt_2000
 

Bill Welch wrote:

On page 97 of "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" there is a photo of
FGEX 10857--a rebuild--that was part of the FGEX 10850-10999 series
(140 cars). The FGE Company information I have regarding rebuild
dates is in conflict. One source says 1932 and the other says 1937.
The side sheathing consists of two horizontal riveted panels on each
side of the doors, the top panel is roughly twice the size of the
bottom panel, a style replicated by FGEX 52680-52779, a group of 100
steel rebuilds on ex-PRR R7 reefer u/f's, and two series of new cars
built by FGE in 1939-40, FDEX 9250-9299 (50 cars) and FGEX
52780-52999 (5 cars) that are very similar to steel cars built by PFE
and ART as well as WFE (50 cars) and BRE (270 cars) before WWII. The
rebuilds have the Hutchins roof common on FGE/WFE/BRE System cars as
replacements.

What fascinates and confounds me is understanding the heritage of
these cars. Although I have no proof, given their combination of
5/5/5 Murphy ends, fishbelly u/f, and Andrews trucks, I believe
these cars may have originally been USRA DS 40-ton boxcars. One
possible weak link in my speculation are the trucks, since obviously
these were used under many cars unrelated to the USRA usage. However
Andrews trucks were very rare for FGE. In fact this is only group I
am aware of equipped with Andrews owned by FGE. Within the FGE/WFE/
BRE System, Burlington Refrigerator did use Andrews. I know of no
usage of this type by WFE. FGE however was a thrifty company and it
makes since to me they would not have replaced a perfectly good truck
if it was not necessary so I think that ends, underframes and trucks
all came on the original cars, wherever they came from and whatever
their source.

It would strengthen my argument if I could identify a plausible
Railroad source for these 140 rebuilds but in going through the
various articles and most recently the RP CYC articles and tables, I
cannot seem to find a possible source. I have long thought the 5/5/5
Murphy end was unique to the USRA boxcars but maybe not, meaning
perhaps other possible sources for these rebuilds.

I thought I would see if anyone on this list has a good scenario for
the origins of these cars? Maybe I have overlooked an owner of USRA
DS cars who disposed of 140 cars sometime in the early or mid 1930's.

Bill,

This photo reminds me of the mechanical refrigerator built for the
Western Indian Fruit Company WIF 800, which seems to based upon a
similar rebuilding of a USRA DS box car although the ends differ from
that illustrated in the book "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet". The
caption states these cars first appeared in 1938. Looking at the summary
of freight cars built for the years 1936-1938, I find no listings for
refrigerator car orders placed by the Fruit Growers Express.

Below are the links to these photos of WIF 800 from the Florida Railroad
web site.

Main page: http://www.flarr.com/fgeco.htm

FEC Picture #005 <http://www.flarr.com/wifsc1.htm>
West India Fruit & Steamship Co. - Mechanical Refrigerator Car. View 1

FEC Picture #006 <http://www.flarr.com/wifsc2.htm>
West India Fruit & Steamship Co. - Mechanical Refrigerator Car. View 2

The photo captions state that this rebuild occurred in 1957.

Regards,

Bob Witt


Bill Welch
 

Bob

The WIF mechanical is a conversion of one of the FGE cars in question.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rwitt_2000" <rwitt_2000@...> wrote:

Bill Welch wrote:

On page 97 of "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" there is a photo of
FGEX 10857--a rebuild--that was part of the FGEX 10850-10999 series
(140 cars). The FGE Company information I have regarding rebuild
dates is in conflict. One source says 1932 and the other says 1937.
The side sheathing consists of two horizontal riveted panels on each
side of the doors, the top panel is roughly twice the size of the
bottom panel, a style replicated by FGEX 52680-52779, a group of 100
steel rebuilds on ex-PRR R7 reefer u/f's, and two series of new cars
built by FGE in 1939-40, FDEX 9250-9299 (50 cars) and FGEX
52780-52999 (5 cars) that are very similar to steel cars built by PFE
and ART as well as WFE (50 cars) and BRE (270 cars) before WWII. The
rebuilds have the Hutchins roof common on FGE/WFE/BRE System cars as
replacements.

What fascinates and confounds me is understanding the heritage of
these cars. Although I have no proof, given their combination of
5/5/5 Murphy ends, fishbelly u/f, and Andrews trucks, I believe
these cars may have originally been USRA DS 40-ton boxcars. One
possible weak link in my speculation are the trucks, since obviously
these were used under many cars unrelated to the USRA usage. However
Andrews trucks were very rare for FGE. In fact this is only group I
am aware of equipped with Andrews owned by FGE. Within the FGE/WFE/
BRE System, Burlington Refrigerator did use Andrews. I know of no
usage of this type by WFE. FGE however was a thrifty company and it
makes since to me they would not have replaced a perfectly good truck
if it was not necessary so I think that ends, underframes and trucks
all came on the original cars, wherever they came from and whatever
their source.

It would strengthen my argument if I could identify a plausible
Railroad source for these 140 rebuilds but in going through the
various articles and most recently the RP CYC articles and tables, I
cannot seem to find a possible source. I have long thought the 5/5/5
Murphy end was unique to the USRA boxcars but maybe not, meaning
perhaps other possible sources for these rebuilds.

I thought I would see if anyone on this list has a good scenario for
the origins of these cars? Maybe I have overlooked an owner of USRA
DS cars who disposed of 140 cars sometime in the early or mid 1930's.

Bill,

This photo reminds me of the mechanical refrigerator built for the
Western Indian Fruit Company WIF 800, which seems to based upon a
similar rebuilding of a USRA DS box car although the ends differ from
that illustrated in the book "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet". The
caption states these cars first appeared in 1938. Looking at the summary
of freight cars built for the years 1936-1938, I find no listings for
refrigerator car orders placed by the Fruit Growers Express.

Below are the links to these photos of WIF 800 from the Florida Railroad
web site.

Main page: http://www.flarr.com/fgeco.htm

FEC Picture #005 <http://www.flarr.com/wifsc1.htm>
West India Fruit & Steamship Co. - Mechanical Refrigerator Car. View 1

FEC Picture #006 <http://www.flarr.com/wifsc2.htm>
West India Fruit & Steamship Co. - Mechanical Refrigerator Car. View 2

The photo captions state that this rebuild occurred in 1957.

Regards,

Bob Witt




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


rwitt_2000
 

Bill,

I guess with so few photographs as examples one cannot be 100% sure.

Can you confirm the rebuild date of 1938 as stated in the caption in the
"Postwar Freight Car Fleet"? I am surprised that I can find no orders
for these cars unless another car builder did the conversions.

FWIW, WIF should be West India Fruit Company.

Bob Witt



Bill Welch wrote:

Bob

The WIF mechanical is a conversion of one of the FGE cars in question.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rwitt_2000" rwitt_2000@ wrote:

Bill Welch wrote:

On page 97 of "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" there is a photo of
FGEX 10857--a rebuild--that was part of the FGEX 10850-10999
series
(140 cars). The FGE Company information I have regarding rebuild
dates is in conflict. One source says 1932 and the other says
1937.
The side sheathing consists of two horizontal riveted panels on
each
side of the doors, the top panel is roughly twice the size of the
bottom panel, a style replicated by FGEX 52680-52779, a group of
100
steel rebuilds on ex-PRR R7 reefer u/f's, and two series of new
cars
built by FGE in 1939-40, FDEX 9250-9299 (50 cars) and FGEX
52780-52999 (5 cars) that are very similar to steel cars built by
PFE
and ART as well as WFE (50 cars) and BRE (270 cars) before WWII.
The
rebuilds have the Hutchins roof common on FGE/WFE/BRE System cars
as
replacements.

What fascinates and confounds me is understanding the heritage of
these cars. Although I have no proof, given their combination of
5/5/5 Murphy ends, fishbelly u/f, and Andrews trucks, I believe
these cars may have originally been USRA DS 40-ton boxcars. One
possible weak link in my speculation are the trucks, since
obviously
these were used under many cars unrelated to the USRA usage.
However
Andrews trucks were very rare for FGE. In fact this is only group
I
am aware of equipped with Andrews owned by FGE. Within the
FGE/WFE/
BRE System, Burlington Refrigerator did use Andrews. I know of no
usage of this type by WFE. FGE however was a thrifty company and
it
makes since to me they would not have replaced a perfectly good
truck
if it was not necessary so I think that ends, underframes and
trucks
all came on the original cars, wherever they came from and
whatever
their source.

It would strengthen my argument if I could identify a plausible
Railroad source for these 140 rebuilds but in going through the
various articles and most recently the RP CYC articles and tables,
I
cannot seem to find a possible source. I have long thought the
5/5/5
Murphy end was unique to the USRA boxcars but maybe not, meaning
perhaps other possible sources for these rebuilds.

I thought I would see if anyone on this list has a good scenario
for
the origins of these cars? Maybe I have overlooked an owner of
USRA
DS cars who disposed of 140 cars sometime in the early or mid
1930's.

Bill,

This photo reminds me of the mechanical refrigerator built for the
Western Indian Fruit Company WIF 800, which seems to based upon a
similar rebuilding of a USRA DS box car although the ends differ
from
that illustrated in the book "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet". The
caption states these cars first appeared in 1938. Looking at the
summary
of freight cars built for the years 1936-1938, I find no listings
for
refrigerator car orders placed by the Fruit Growers Express.

Below are the links to these photos of WIF 800 from the Florida
Railroad
web site.

Main page: http://www.flarr.com/fgeco.htm

FEC Picture #005 <http://www.flarr.com/wifsc1.htm>
West India Fruit & Steamship Co. - Mechanical Refrigerator Car. View
1

FEC Picture #006 <http://www.flarr.com/wifsc2.htm>
West India Fruit & Steamship Co. - Mechanical Refrigerator Car. View
2

The photo captions state that this rebuild occurred in 1957.

Regards,

Bob Witt




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Bill Welch
 

Dear Bob

As I noted in my original post, the company information I have for the rebuilding of these cars is in conflict and I cannot confirm that the caption date is correct.

I am not sure why you are expecting to find "orders" for these cars. FGE routinely did rebuilding in their company shops during the 1930s and only referred generally to this in their own annual reports.

A reminder to everyone, my original post was about trying to find the possible original source of the cars used to achieve these rebuilds.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rwitt_2000" <rwitt_2000@...> wrote:

Bill,

I guess with so few photographs as examples one cannot be 100% sure.

Can you confirm the rebuild date of 1938 as stated in the caption in the
"Postwar Freight Car Fleet"? I am surprised that I can find no orders
for these cars unless another car builder did the conversions.

FWIW, WIF should be West India Fruit Company.

Bob Witt



Bill Welch wrote:

Bob

The WIF mechanical is a conversion of one of the FGE cars in question.

Bill Welch
This photo reminds me of the mechanical refrigerator built for the
Western Indian Fruit Company WIF 800, which seems to based upon a
similar rebuilding of a USRA DS box car although the ends differ
from
that illustrated in the book "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet". The
caption states these cars first appeared in 1938. Looking at the
summary
of freight cars built for the years 1936-1938, I find no listings
for
refrigerator car orders placed by the Fruit Growers Express.

Below are the links to these photos of WIF 800 from the Florida
Railroad
web site.

Main page: http://www.flarr.com/fgeco.htm

FEC Picture #005 <http://www.flarr.com/wifsc1.htm>
West India Fruit & Steamship Co. - Mechanical Refrigerator Car. View
1

FEC Picture #006 <http://www.flarr.com/wifsc2.htm>
West India Fruit & Steamship Co. - Mechanical Refrigerator Car. View
2

The photo captions state that this rebuild occurred in 1957.

Regards,

Bob Witt




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


aaejj2j
 

Bill:
I assume you considered the ACL and FEC USRA DS cars. I would think one possible source would be a FGE owner RR. I do not think the PRR or B&O had them. I do not think they would have come from the GN or CB&Q as both utilized theirs in the original form as you have stated.
I have wondered if the FGE car had the same height to eves as the original USRA car. If rather original USRA DS cars where used then I would consider the use of the original Andrews trucks as understandable.
Tyrone Johnsen
Rockford, IL

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

On page 97 of "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" there is a photo of
FGEX 10857--a rebuild--that was part of the FGEX 10850-10999 series
What fascinates and confounds me is understanding the heritage of
these cars. Although I have no proof, given their combination of
5/5/5 Murphy ends, fishbelly u/f, and Andrews trucks, I believe
these cars may have originally been USRA DS 40-ton boxcars. One
possible weak link in my speculation are the trucks, since obviously these were used under many cars unrelated to the USRA usage. However Andrews trucks were very rare for FGE. In fact this is only group I am aware of equipped with Andrews owned by FGE.> It would strengthen my argument if I could identify a plausible
Railroad source for these 140 rebuilds but in going through the
various articles and most recently the RP CYC articles and tables, I cannot seem to find a possible source. I have long thought the 5/5/5 Murphy end was unique to the USRA boxcars but maybe not, meaning perhaps other possible sources for these rebuilds.
I thought I would see if anyone on this list has a good scenario for the origins of these cars? Maybe I have overlooked an owner of USRA DS cars who disposed of 140 cars sometime in the early or mid 1930's.


Bill Welch
 

Thank you Tyrone, it is logical that the cars could have come from one of FGE's owners. The FEC cars were not pure USRA cars, as they were ventilated cars w/vents mounted in the ends, and had 7/7 Murphy ends. The ACL is a definate candidate and is the only FGE owner railroad they owned the USRA 40-ton DS'ed cars. I will look again at their numbers.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "aaejj2j" <tyrone.johnsen@...> wrote:

Bill:
I assume you considered the ACL and FEC USRA DS cars. I would think one possible source would be a FGE owner RR. I do not think the PRR or B&O had them. I do not think they would have come from the GN or CB&Q as both utilized theirs in the original form as you have stated.
I have wondered if the FGE car had the same height to eves as the original USRA car. If rather original USRA DS cars where used then I would consider the use of the original Andrews trucks as understandable.
Tyrone Johnsen
Rockford, IL

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bill Welch <fgexbill@> wrote:

On page 97 of "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" there is a photo of
FGEX 10857--a rebuild--that was part of the FGEX 10850-10999 series
What fascinates and confounds me is understanding the heritage of
these cars. Although I have no proof, given their combination of
5/5/5 Murphy ends, fishbelly u/f, and Andrews trucks, I believe
these cars may have originally been USRA DS 40-ton boxcars. One
possible weak link in my speculation are the trucks, since obviously these were used under many cars unrelated to the USRA usage. However Andrews trucks were very rare for FGE. In fact this is only group I am aware of equipped with Andrews owned by FGE.> It would strengthen my argument if I could identify a plausible
Railroad source for these 140 rebuilds but in going through the
various articles and most recently the RP CYC articles and tables, I cannot seem to find a possible source. I have long thought the 5/5/5 Murphy end was unique to the USRA boxcars but maybe not, meaning perhaps other possible sources for these rebuilds.
I thought I would see if anyone on this list has a good scenario for the origins of these cars? Maybe I have overlooked an owner of USRA DS cars who disposed of 140 cars sometime in the early or mid 1930's.


Bill Welch
 

My bad, the FEC had 500 ventilated cars with 5/5/5 ends. I looked at the ACL numbers and according to the tables in Nos.16 and 24 they could not have furnished 140 cars to FGE for their converted rebuilds.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Thank you Tyrone, it is logical that the cars could have come from one of FGE's owners. The FEC cars were not pure USRA cars, as they were ventilated cars w/vents mounted in the ends, and had 7/7 Murphy ends. The ACL is a definate candidate and is the only FGE owner railroad they owned the USRA 40-ton DS'ed cars. I will look again at their numbers.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "aaejj2j" <tyrone.johnsen@> wrote:

Bill:
I assume you considered the ACL and FEC USRA DS cars. I would think one possible source would be a FGE owner RR. I do not think the PRR or B&O had them. I do not think they would have come from the GN or CB&Q as both utilized theirs in the original form as you have stated.
I have wondered if the FGE car had the same height to eves as the original USRA car. If rather original USRA DS cars where used then I would consider the use of the original Andrews trucks as understandable.
Tyrone Johnsen
Rockford, IL

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bill Welch <fgexbill@> wrote:

On page 97 of "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" there is a photo of
FGEX 10857--a rebuild--that was part of the FGEX 10850-10999 series
What fascinates and confounds me is understanding the heritage of
these cars. Although I have no proof, given their combination of
5/5/5 Murphy ends, fishbelly u/f, and Andrews trucks, I believe
these cars may have originally been USRA DS 40-ton boxcars. One
possible weak link in my speculation are the trucks, since obviously these were used under many cars unrelated to the USRA usage. However Andrews trucks were very rare for FGE. In fact this is only group I am aware of equipped with Andrews owned by FGE.> It would strengthen my argument if I could identify a plausible
Railroad source for these 140 rebuilds but in going through the
various articles and most recently the RP CYC articles and tables, I cannot seem to find a possible source. I have long thought the 5/5/5 Murphy end was unique to the USRA boxcars but maybe not, meaning perhaps other possible sources for these rebuilds.
I thought I would see if anyone on this list has a good scenario for the origins of these cars? Maybe I have overlooked an owner of USRA DS cars who disposed of 140 cars sometime in the early or mid 1930's.


al_brown03
 

The following is a wild guess. Looking at the same two RP CYC tables, I got to wondering if the Pere Marquette's USRA boxcars are accounted for. PM sold them off relatively early, and some found their way into the second-hand market.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

My bad, the FEC had 500 ventilated cars with 5/5/5 ends. I looked at the ACL numbers and according to the tables in Nos.16 and 24 they could not have furnished 140 cars to FGE for their converted rebuilds.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <fgexbill@> wrote:

Thank you Tyrone, it is logical that the cars could have come from one of FGE's owners. The FEC cars were not pure USRA cars, as they were ventilated cars w/vents mounted in the ends, and had 7/7 Murphy ends. The ACL is a definate candidate and is the only FGE owner railroad they owned the USRA 40-ton DS'ed cars. I will look again at their numbers.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "aaejj2j" <tyrone.johnsen@> wrote:

Bill:
I assume you considered the ACL and FEC USRA DS cars. I would think one possible source would be a FGE owner RR. I do not think the PRR or B&O had them. I do not think they would have come from the GN or CB&Q as both utilized theirs in the original form as you have stated.
I have wondered if the FGE car had the same height to eves as the original USRA car. If rather original USRA DS cars where used then I would consider the use of the original Andrews trucks as understandable.
Tyrone Johnsen
Rockford, IL

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bill Welch <fgexbill@> wrote:

On page 97 of "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" there is a photo of
FGEX 10857--a rebuild--that was part of the FGEX 10850-10999 series
What fascinates and confounds me is understanding the heritage of
these cars. Although I have no proof, given their combination of
5/5/5 Murphy ends, fishbelly u/f, and Andrews trucks, I believe
these cars may have originally been USRA DS 40-ton boxcars. One
possible weak link in my speculation are the trucks, since obviously these were used under many cars unrelated to the USRA usage. However Andrews trucks were very rare for FGE. In fact this is only group I am aware of equipped with Andrews owned by FGE.> It would strengthen my argument if I could identify a plausible
Railroad source for these 140 rebuilds but in going through the
various articles and most recently the RP CYC articles and tables, I cannot seem to find a possible source. I have long thought the 5/5/5 Murphy end was unique to the USRA boxcars but maybe not, meaning perhaps other possible sources for these rebuilds.
I thought I would see if anyone on this list has a good scenario for the origins of these cars? Maybe I have overlooked an owner of USRA DS cars who disposed of 140 cars sometime in the early or mid 1930's.


Bill Welch
 

I believe you may have guessed correctly Al. A second set of eyes and a fresh brain is so helpful! The 1943 ORER has the PM down to 82 cars. PM was an owner of FGE, but not until 1940, which may be why they had not occurred to me.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

The following is a wild guess. Looking at the same two RP CYC tables, I got to wondering if the Pere Marquette's USRA boxcars are accounted for. PM sold them off relatively early, and some found their way into the second-hand market.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <fgexbill@> wrote:

My bad, the FEC had 500 ventilated cars with 5/5/5 ends. I looked at the ACL numbers and according to the tables in Nos.16 and 24 they could not have furnished 140 cars to FGE for their converted rebuilds.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <fgexbill@> wrote:

Thank you Tyrone, it is logical that the cars could have come from one of FGE's owners. The FEC cars were not pure USRA cars, as they were ventilated cars w/vents mounted in the ends, and had 7/7 Murphy ends. The ACL is a definate candidate and is the only FGE owner railroad they owned the USRA 40-ton DS'ed cars. I will look again at their numbers.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "aaejj2j" <tyrone.johnsen@> wrote:

Bill:
I assume you considered the ACL and FEC USRA DS cars. I would think one possible source would be a FGE owner RR. I do not think the PRR or B&O had them. I do not think they would have come from the GN or CB&Q as both utilized theirs in the original form as you have stated.
I have wondered if the FGE car had the same height to eves as the original USRA car. If rather original USRA DS cars where used then I would consider the use of the original Andrews trucks as understandable.
Tyrone Johnsen
Rockford, IL

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bill Welch <fgexbill@> wrote:

On page 97 of "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" there is a photo of
FGEX 10857--a rebuild--that was part of the FGEX 10850-10999 series
What fascinates and confounds me is understanding the heritage of
these cars. Although I have no proof, given their combination of
5/5/5 Murphy ends, fishbelly u/f, and Andrews trucks, I believe
these cars may have originally been USRA DS 40-ton boxcars. One
possible weak link in my speculation are the trucks, since obviously these were used under many cars unrelated to the USRA usage. However Andrews trucks were very rare for FGE. In fact this is only group I am aware of equipped with Andrews owned by FGE.> It would strengthen my argument if I could identify a plausible
Railroad source for these 140 rebuilds but in going through the
various articles and most recently the RP CYC articles and tables, I cannot seem to find a possible source. I have long thought the 5/5/5 Murphy end was unique to the USRA boxcars but maybe not, meaning perhaps other possible sources for these rebuilds.
I thought I would see if anyone on this list has a good scenario for the origins of these cars? Maybe I have overlooked an owner of USRA DS cars who disposed of 140 cars sometime in the early or mid 1930's.


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

I believe you may have guessed correctly Al. A second set of eyes and a fresh brain is so helpful! The 1943 ORER has the PM down to 82 cars. PM was an owner of FGE, but not until 1940, which may be why they had not occurred to me.

Bill Welch
Down to 82 cars from what number? IIRC, fifty of those cars went to the DSS&A by way of a used equipment dealer in 1935 or '36. They became the 16,000 series on the South Shore.

Dennis


Benjamin Hom
 

Al Brown wrote:
"The following is a wild guess. Looking at the same two RP CYC tables, I got to wondering if the Pere Marquette's USRA boxcars are accounted for. PM sold them off relatively early, and some found their way into the second-hand market."

Bill Welch replied:
"I believe you may have guessed correctly Al. A second set of eyes and a fresh brain is so helpful! The 1943 ORER has the PM down to 82 cars. PM was an owner of FGE, but not until 1940, which may be why they had not occurred to me."

Al kind of led you into a minefield. The PM USRA DS boxcar story is a complex one, and it's nowhere near as simple as Al's makes it out to be. The following information is transcribed from Million and Patton's _Pere Marquette Revenue Freight Cars_, page 59:

1920: Total number USRA DS boxcars allocated - 2,000 cars
1920: 20 cars converted to express boxcars (Rough running tally - 1,980 cars; does not take into account cars lost to wrecks or other retirements.)
1923: 19 cars converted to express boxcars (1,961 cars)
1925-1927: At least 478 cars rebuilt to double door boxcars (12 ft door openings, double wood Camel doors) (1,483 cars)
1937: 150 cars acquired by M&StL via Hyman-Michaels (1,333 cars)
1939: 100 cars acquired by DSS&A via Haffner-Thrall (1,233 cars)

The rough running talley are my own figures and need to be checked against ORER entries to get the true populations. Ultimately, Al certainly might be onto something; there certainly appears to be room for ~134 cars. Additionally, six test cars in 1933, followed by 139 more single-door USRA DS boxcars in 1934 received Hutchins roofs, which is another data point that may or may not point towards the PM cars as the source of FGEX 10850-10999.

What needs to be done now is some roster analysis of original cars vs rebuilds (and retirements) instead of random guessing.


Ben Hom


cinderandeight@...
 

Bill. and others,
According to "Pere Marquette Revenue Freights cars" by Million and
Patton on page 59 the PMRR sold off 150 of these cars to the M&StL via dealer
Hyman-Michaels Co. in 1937 (M&StL #25000-25298, even numbers), and an
additional 100 cars to the DSS&A in 1939 via Haffner-Thrall (#16000-16099). There
is a rather fuzzy photo of one of the PMRR cars on page 59 also.
Although this sounds like a good source for your FGEX cars, a check of
later ORER's shows that 149 of these cars survive through 1939, and by the
early 1940's the fleet actually begins to grow considerably, probably from
more second hand purchases.
Rich Burg