Topics

How to unload coal 1945

Ray Breyer
 

For anyone wanting to know how to unload a "car of coal" at a dealer, THIS is the most usual way.

http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/7/5/759260/2d140d1f-2c48-49ef-a6f9-384c3c885adb-A12259.jpg

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ray Breyer wrote:
For anyone wanting to know how to unload a "car of coal" at a dealer, THIS is the most usual way.

http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/7/5/759260/2d140d1f-2c48-49ef-a6f9-384c3c885adb-A12259.jpg
Excellent photo, Ray, thanks for the link. The stuff looks more like coke than coal to me. Anyone else want to comment?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Matthew Hurst
 

Yes, great photo.  Looks like coal to me.  Seems to be an even sizing.  The way I've seen coke, it would be irregularly sized and a little larger lumps.

Matthew Hurst
H&BTMRR and PRR nut case!
Winchester, VA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ray Breyer
 

I'm pretty sure it's coal Tony. They're loading the stuff into 50 pound burlap sacks, and there seems to be little or no coal dust, so to me this all looks like washed home heating coal!

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


________________________________
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] How to unload coal 1945

Ray Breyer wrote:
For anyone wanting to know how to unload a "car of coal" at a dealer, THIS is the most usual way.

http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/7/5/759260/2d140d1f-2c48-49ef-a6f9-384c3c885adb-A12259.jpg
    Excellent photo, Ray, thanks for the link. The stuff looks more like coke than coal to me. Anyone else want to comment?

Tony Thompson

O Fenton Wells
 

Think of the time and labor costs for this operation. WOW! Coal would be
priced out of the market in today's world with these practices and labor
costs..
Fenton Wells

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 4:11 PM, Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:

**


I'm pretty sure it's coal Tony. They're loading the stuff into 50 pound
burlap sacks, and there seems to be little or no coal dust, so to me this
all looks like washed home heating coal!

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


________________________________
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] How to unload coal 1945

Ray Breyer wrote:
For anyone wanting to know how to unload a "car of coal" at a dealer,
THIS is the most usual way.

http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/7/5/759260/2d140d1f-2c48-49ef-a6f9-384c3c885adb-A12259.jpg

Excellent photo, Ray, thanks for the link. The stuff looks more like
coke than coal to me. Anyone else want to comment?

Tony Thompson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
@srrfan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

North Model Railroad Supplies <nmrs@...>
 

It appears that the other doors were propped shut so only one door opened to
release its coal load.

The mechanism for that door is the only one extended on that side of the
car.

Things you learn, looking at photos.

Cheers

Dave North

Charles Morrill
 

I was also mystified by that 'only one door open'. I can't see how that could be done. Anybody familier with that mechanism?
Charlie

----- Original Message -----
From: "North Model Railroad Supplies" <nmrs@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 7:37 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: How to unload coal 1945


It appears that the other doors were propped shut so only one door opened to
release its coal load.

The mechanism for that door is the only one extended on that side of the
car.

Things you learn, looking at photos.

Cheers

Dave North








------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Charles Morrill" <badlands@...> wrote:

I was also mystified by that 'only one door open'. I can't see how that
could be done. Anybody familier with that mechanism?
Charlie
I believe this is a CN "Otis" car. I'm not as familiar with the Otis mechanism
as I am with the Enterprise, but I believe they worked the same in that each
operating shaft only dumped one quarter of the car... four doors on a Enterprise car, three doors on the shorter CN Otis cars.. If you look
under the bib of the wheelbarrow, you'll see a 4x4 propping the third door
closed. I think I can see another in the corner of the photo, behind the sill
step, propping the first door open.

Dennis

al.kresse
 

This "side-delivery" process was more common in the cold  Midwest prior to the First World War .  Normally these cars would dump into a chute going into the basement of a business' boiler house or on the side of an elevated trestle in a coal yard.  I believe farmers coops would sell coal by the bag or by mule wagon delivery.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----


From: " soolinehistory " < destorzek @ mchsi .com>
To: STMFC @ yahoogroups .com
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 10:41:49 AM
Subject: [ STMFC ] Re: How to unload coal 1945



--- In STMFC @ yahoogroups .com, "Charles Morrill " <badlands@...> wrote:

I was also mystified by that 'only one door open' .  I can't see how that
could be done.  Anybody familier with that mechanism?
Charlie
I believe this is a CN "Otis" car. I'm not as familiar with the Otis mechanism as I am with the Enterprise, but I believe they worked the same in that each operating shaft only dumped one quarter of the car... four doors. If you look under the bib of the wheelbarrow, you'll see a 4x4 propping the third door closed. I think I can see another in the corner of the photo, behind the sill step, propping the first door open.

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve Lucas <midrly@...>
 

The car in the photo is a CN GS gon of the "Enterprise design.  CN inherited a number of 36' versions from the Intercolonial/Canadian Government Railways, possibly CNoR and also the GTR, then had more 40 footers built.  The doors were individually operable.  Later, the doors were sealed and these cars became regular gons.  As built, at least one CGR order had wood sheathing on a steel framed body.

Steve Lucas.  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

spsalso
 

Re:

How those doors work.

It appears to me that there are two sets of three doors on this side of the car. If you compare how the links are wound around (or not, as the case may be) the shaft, you'll see that the far set is wound tightly into what looks to me like a kind of square. I would think these doors are tightly shut. For the near set, two of the doors appear to be slightly open--it looks like I can see some coal showing for the one to the immediate right. Also, the curved link for the far set is slightly higher than the curved link on the two semi-shut doors.

Looking at how the links are set up, I believe that all three of the near doors were previously open, and that the two semi-shut ones have been closed by hand by manipulating the links. If there was still coal on top of the doors, i think it would be pretty near impossible to get the links moved by hand. It does seem that they're being held up by something temporary from underneath, as mentioned earlier. If not, what would be keeping the curved link from dropping down a couple of inches until the short links rested on each other?

I do wonder why the two doors have been propped shut. The shaft for the set is going to have to be wound up later, anyway. I expect it was to get them out of the way to get better access for the unloading.


Fantastic picture,

Thanks,



Ed

Edward Sutorik

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:
This "side-delivery" process was more common in the cold  Midwest prior to the First World War .  Normally these cars would dump into a chute going into the basement of a business' boiler house or on the side of an elevated trestle in a coal yard.  I believe farmers coops would sell coal by the bag or by mule wagon delivery.

Al Kresse

Coal was delivered in gondolas - drop-bottom or otherwise - to the Farmers Co-op Elevator in the small Iowa town (pop. 250) in which I grew up. Oscar Barker, one grade ahead of me in school, was paid $15.00 to shovel the coal over the side into coal bins. (Oscar's father died when Oscar was young and the family was in desperate situation financially.) It took Oscar 3 or 4 evenings after school to unload a car.

We heated with stoker coal and it was my job to keep the stoker full, remove the clinkers, and so on. We bought the coal one or two gunny sacks full at a time and I drove them home on the fenders of an old Buick. This started years before I was old enough to get a driver's license. We had a coal bin but Dad rarely had enough money to fill it all at once.

When the natural gas pipe line came through some time after 1960 it didn't take long for everyone except Orin Gridley to get on the gas band wagon. Orin heated with wood until the day he died.

I remember at least one occasion when coal was dropped on the ground, shoveled into the back of a truck, driven around to the customer side of the coal bins, and shoveled into the bins. My mental picture is of coal on the ground being shoveled into a grain truck but, for the life of me, I can not recall whether it was dumped from a drop-bottom gon or a hopper car. Delivery in a gondola was the norm.

The coal bins had a asymmetrical roof, steep on the track side and about a 6/12 on the customer side. Each bin had a pair of doors on the track side through which the coal was shoveled into the bin. By the time I came along the coal bin floors were below the level of the adjacent drive and always water or ice covered, depending on the temperature.

Gene Green

Afterthought! It just occurred to me that immediately before checking these messages I sent an email to the very fellow who ran the elevator when I was a kid and who shoveled the stoker coal into those gunny sacks. I'll check my memory with him.

James SANDIFER
 

Coal bins like this:

http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Hamilton/Coal/Index.htm



______________________________________________

J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer

mailto:steve.sandifer@...

Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918

Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 9:16 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: How to unload coal 1945





--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ,
water.kresse@... wrote:
This "side-delivery" process was more common in the cold Midwest prior
to the First World War . Normally these cars would dump into a chute going
into the basement of a business' boiler house or on the side of an elevated
trestle in a coal yard. I believe farmers coops would sell coal by the bag
or by mule wagon delivery.

Al Kresse
Coal was delivered in gondolas - drop-bottom or otherwise - to the Farmers
Co-op Elevator in the small Iowa town (pop. 250) in which I grew up. Oscar
Barker, one grade ahead of me in school, was paid $15.00 to shovel the coal
over the side into coal bins. (Oscar's father died when Oscar was young and
the family was in desperate situation financially.) It took Oscar 3 or 4
evenings after school to unload a car.

We heated with stoker coal and it was my job to keep the stoker full, remove
the clinkers, and so on. We bought the coal one or two gunny sacks full at a
time and I drove them home on the fenders of an old Buick. This started
years before I was old enough to get a driver's license. We had a coal bin
but Dad rarely had enough money to fill it all at once.

When the natural gas pipe line came through some time after 1960 it didn't
take long for everyone except Orin Gridley to get on the gas band wagon.
Orin heated with wood until the day he died.

I remember at least one occasion when coal was dropped on the ground,
shoveled into the back of a truck, driven around to the customer side of the
coal bins, and shoveled into the bins. My mental picture is of coal on the
ground being shoveled into a grain truck but, for the life of me, I can not
recall whether it was dumped from a drop-bottom gon or a hopper car.
Delivery in a gondola was the norm.

The coal bins had a asymmetrical roof, steep on the track side and about a
6/12 on the customer side. Each bin had a pair of doors on the track side
through which the coal was shoveled into the bin. By the time I came along
the coal bin floors were below the level of the adjacent drive and always
water or ice covered, depending on the temperature.

Gene Green

Afterthought! It just occurred to me that immediately before checking these
messages I sent an email to the very fellow who ran the elevator when I was
a kid and who shoveled the stoker coal into those gunny sacks. I'll check my
memory with him.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jared Harper
 

Steve,

It's interesting that most of the pictures of coal bins and sand bins from the Midwest were covered, but those on the Alma branch were not. I wonder why. No one has been able to tell me.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Sandifer" <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

Coal bins like this:

http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Hamilton/Coal/Index.htm



______________________________________________

J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer

mailto:steve.sandifer@...

Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918

Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 9:16 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: How to unload coal 1945





--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ,
water.kresse@ wrote:
This "side-delivery" process was more common in the cold Midwest prior
to the First World War . Normally these cars would dump into a chute going
into the basement of a business' boiler house or on the side of an elevated
trestle in a coal yard. I believe farmers coops would sell coal by the bag
or by mule wagon delivery.

Al Kresse
Coal was delivered in gondolas - drop-bottom or otherwise - to the Farmers
Co-op Elevator in the small Iowa town (pop. 250) in which I grew up. Oscar
Barker, one grade ahead of me in school, was paid $15.00 to shovel the coal
over the side into coal bins. (Oscar's father died when Oscar was young and
the family was in desperate situation financially.) It took Oscar 3 or 4
evenings after school to unload a car.

We heated with stoker coal and it was my job to keep the stoker full, remove
the clinkers, and so on. We bought the coal one or two gunny sacks full at a
time and I drove them home on the fenders of an old Buick. This started
years before I was old enough to get a driver's license. We had a coal bin
but Dad rarely had enough money to fill it all at once.

When the natural gas pipe line came through some time after 1960 it didn't
take long for everyone except Orin Gridley to get on the gas band wagon.
Orin heated with wood until the day he died.

I remember at least one occasion when coal was dropped on the ground,
shoveled into the back of a truck, driven around to the customer side of the
coal bins, and shoveled into the bins. My mental picture is of coal on the
ground being shoveled into a grain truck but, for the life of me, I can not
recall whether it was dumped from a drop-bottom gon or a hopper car.
Delivery in a gondola was the norm.

The coal bins had a asymmetrical roof, steep on the track side and about a
6/12 on the customer side. Each bin had a pair of doors on the track side
through which the coal was shoveled into the bin. By the time I came along
the coal bin floors were below the level of the adjacent drive and always
water or ice covered, depending on the temperature.

Gene Green

Afterthought! It just occurred to me that immediately before checking these
messages I sent an email to the very fellow who ran the elevator when I was
a kid and who shoveled the stoker coal into those gunny sacks. I'll check my
memory with him.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

James SANDIFER
 

I assume the primary reason for a cover is to keep water and snow out which
would freeze and make removing the coal extremely difficult. Could it be
that tarps were used on the Alma Branch? I have seen several surviving bins
like the one in my photo in Kansas and Iowa.



______________________________________________

J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer

mailto:steve.sandifer@...

Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918

Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
JaredH
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 3:06 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: How to unload coal 1945





Steve,

It's interesting that most of the pictures of coal bins and sand bins from
the Midwest were covered, but those on the Alma branch were not. I wonder
why. No one has been able to tell me.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Steve
Sandifer" <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

Coal bins like this:

http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Hamilton/Coal/Index.htm



______________________________________________

J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer

mailto:steve.sandifer@...

Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918

Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417



From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 9:16 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: How to unload coal 1945





--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ,
water.kresse@ wrote:
This "side-delivery" process was more common in the cold Midwest prior
to the First World War . Normally these cars would dump into a chute
going
into the basement of a business' boiler house or on the side of an
elevated
trestle in a coal yard. I believe farmers coops would sell coal by the
bag
or by mule wagon delivery.

Al Kresse
Coal was delivered in gondolas - drop-bottom or otherwise - to the Farmers
Co-op Elevator in the small Iowa town (pop. 250) in which I grew up. Oscar
Barker, one grade ahead of me in school, was paid $15.00 to shovel the
coal
over the side into coal bins. (Oscar's father died when Oscar was young
and
the family was in desperate situation financially.) It took Oscar 3 or 4
evenings after school to unload a car.

We heated with stoker coal and it was my job to keep the stoker full,
remove
the clinkers, and so on. We bought the coal one or two gunny sacks full at
a
time and I drove them home on the fenders of an old Buick. This started
years before I was old enough to get a driver's license. We had a coal bin
but Dad rarely had enough money to fill it all at once.

When the natural gas pipe line came through some time after 1960 it didn't
take long for everyone except Orin Gridley to get on the gas band wagon.
Orin heated with wood until the day he died.

I remember at least one occasion when coal was dropped on the ground,
shoveled into the back of a truck, driven around to the customer side of
the
coal bins, and shoveled into the bins. My mental picture is of coal on the
ground being shoveled into a grain truck but, for the life of me, I can
not
recall whether it was dumped from a drop-bottom gon or a hopper car.
Delivery in a gondola was the norm.

The coal bins had a asymmetrical roof, steep on the track side and about a
6/12 on the customer side. Each bin had a pair of doors on the track side
through which the coal was shoveled into the bin. By the time I came along
the coal bin floors were below the level of the adjacent drive and always
water or ice covered, depending on the temperature.

Gene Green

Afterthought! It just occurred to me that immediately before checking
these
messages I sent an email to the very fellow who ran the elevator when I
was
a kid and who shoveled the stoker coal into those gunny sacks. I'll check
my
memory with him.










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

PennsyNut
 

On 27,07 2012 15:06 PM, JaredH wrote:

Steve,

It's interesting that most of the pictures of coal bins and sand bins
from the Midwest were covered, but those on the Alma branch were not.
I wonder why. No one has been able to tell me.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA
Jared
A good question. Since coal in a tender is always exposed to the
elements. Yet as a kid, we had a coal fired furnace in Chicago, and that
coal was loaded into our basement and kept dry. Sand of course, is a
different story. Beaches are exposed. Yet, didn't all railroads have
sand in sandhouses to be kept dry? To this day? Dieseasals use sand too.
Maybe in very dry climates, they don't need covers. Meaning that they
use it up fast enough that it don't get and stay wet very long.
All my educated guess, using logic.
Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, PRRTHS #1204

Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Steve, Jared, and Group,

On the Gridley Branch there were coal facilities both with and without coal sheds.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA
On Jul 27, 2012, at 1:37 PM, PennsyNut <pennsynut@...> wrote:

On 27,07 2012 15:06 PM, JaredH wrote:

Steve,

It's interesting that most of the pictures of coal bins and sand bins
from the Midwest were covered, but those on the Alma branch were not.
I wonder why. No one has been able to tell me.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA
Jared
A good question. Since coal in a tender is always exposed to the
elements. Yet as a kid, we had a coal fired furnace in Chicago, and that
coal was loaded into our basement and kept dry. Sand of course, is a
different story. Beaches are exposed. Yet, didn't all railroads have
sand in sandhouses to be kept dry? To this day? Dieseasals use sand too.
Maybe in very dry climates, they don't need covers. Meaning that they
use it up fast enough that it don't get and stay wet very long.
All my educated guess, using logic.
Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, PRRTHS #1204




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., PennsyNut <pennsynut@...> wrote:

On 27,07 2012 15:06 PM, JaredH wrote:

Steve,

It's interesting that most of the pictures of coal bins and sand bins
from the Midwest were covered, but those on the Alma branch were not.
I wonder why. No one has been able to tell me.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA
Jared
A good question. Since coal in a tender is always exposed to the
elements.
It depends how long the coal was expected to stay there. Coal won't melt in a day, or week, even. What was put in the tender today was expected to be gone by tomorrow.

On the other hand, the freeze / thaw cycles do degrade coal, breaking the lumps smaller and smaller, so, coal expected to last the season was usually stored under cover.

Same goes for storage at the coal dealer. How fast did it move? Would one car load of coal sit there one week, one month, or all year? Kansas has a pretty dry climate, so I imagine the dealer figured they wouldn't have to shovel too much snow off the pile to load the coal. A somewhat different situation existed in other parts of the Midwest and Canadian prairies.


Sand of course, is a
different story. Beaches are exposed. Yet, didn't all railroads have
sand in sandhouses to be kept dry? To this day? Dieseasals use sand too.
Wet sand clumps, won't flow down the sander pipes. The railroads paid to dry the sand, either locally at the each terminal years ago, or at a central plant in more modern times. Once dry, they had to keep it dry, or they'd have to dry it again.

Dennis

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Sandifer" <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

Coal bins like this:

http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Hamilton/Coal/Index.htm
Not obvious from the photo is these sheds were normally divided into separate bins with bulkheads inside midway between the doors. This shed had four doors, so as many as four different grades of coal could be stored. I did a little idle math, and from the dimensions given, each bin could hold about 1500 cu.ft. or about 40 tons level full. This jibes well with a story I've read by a man who as a kid in North Dakota was paid to unload coal as an after school job. In his town the shed had been sized for 30 tons o0f coal, and his comment was that to fit a 40 ton boxcar load the coal had to be pushed up into the rafters, which was a pain to do. That also means that unless two or more bins were the same size coal, all the coal in the car had to be moved down to the door of the proper bin, either bu moving the car as it emptied, or in the case of a boxcar, with a wheelbarrow.

Labor was cheap before WWII. I seem to recall from the story he and his brother were paid a dime a ton, so unloading a 40 ton boxcar earned them $4. However, they had to get it done within two days or THEY had to pay the demurrage, which was 1$ per day. He said they liked when a car came in just before the weekend, as Saturday and Sunday were free.

Dennis

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Sandifer" <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:>
Coal bins like this:
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Hamilton/Coal/Index.htm
______________________________________________

J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
Yes, sir! That's very much like the ones in my home town.
Gene Green