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Freight Forwarding

Charles Hostetler <cesicjh@...> #111570 Good Evening All, I've posted some information on freight forwarding traffic as it was practiced between 1947 and 1960 at: http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2012/10/commodity-class-950-forwarder-traffic.html The information includes some background material about freight forwarding, some examples of freight forwarding facilities, temporal changes during the 1950s, the types of freight cars used in the freight forwarding business, and a state to state distribution of forwarding traffic from 1957. The data are mostly from the 1% Carload Waybill Survey. A number of the larger (and some of the more modest-sized) cities had freight forwarders during the transition era and this type of freight traffic could make an interesting contrast to LCL and regular freight operations. Regards, Charles Hostetler
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Dan Sweeney Jr #111636 Charles, thank you for your extensive research and analysis on this topic, and on the topic of switching districts. It is very valuable and appreciated. Dan Sweeney, Jr. Alexandria, VA toggle quoted message Show quoted text --- In STMFC@..., "Charles Hostetler" <cesicjh@...> wrote: Good Evening All, I've posted some information on freight forwarding traffic as it was practiced between 1947 and 1960 at: http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2012/10/commodity-class-950-forwarder-traffic.html The information includes some background material about freight forwarding, some examples of freight forwarding facilities, temporal changes during the 1950s, the types of freight cars used in the freight forwarding business, and a state to state distribution of forwarding traffic from 1957. The data are mostly from the 1% Carload Waybill Survey. A number of the larger (and some of the more modest-sized) cities had freight forwarders during the transition era and this type of freight traffic could make an interesting contrast to LCL and regular freight operations. Regards, Charles Hostetler
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billsoman #111652 A hearty "second" to this, I've been enjoying the blog tremendously. A real oddity on the state-to-state forwarder flows: 4300 carloads a year from Georgia to Washington State? It's by far the largest flow to or from either state. --- Bill in Seattle toggle quoted message Show quoted text --- In STMFC@..., "potomacyard" <dlsweeney@...> wrote: Charles, thank you for your extensive research and analysis on this topic, and on the topic of switching districts. It is very valuable and appreciated. Dan Sweeney, Jr. Alexandria, VA
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C J Wyatt #111654 << A real oddity on the state-to-state forwarder flows: 4300 carloads a year from Georgia to Washington State? It's by far the largest flow to or from either state. --- Bill in Seattle My guess would be that the major commodity in that flow would be carpet from Dalton, GA. Anyone else have any ideas? Jack Wyatt
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Charles Hostetler <cesicjh@...> #111655 --- In STMFC@..., Jack Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote: << A real oddity on the state-to-state forwarder flows: 4300 carloads a year from Georgia to Washington State? It's by far the largest flow to or from either state. --- Bill in Seattle My guess would be that the major commodity in that flow would be carpet from Dalton, GA. Anyone else have any ideas? Jack Wyatt I just double checked this flow and it's real, not a typo. It is consistent with the state to state table for Georgia that I published earlier (an excess of 35 tons to Washington from Georgia in 1950), second table at: http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2012/09/georgia-state-to-state-commodity-flows.html So it looks like it is not just a one year anomaly. I will look at this flow in other years when I get back home this weekend. Glad you are enjoying the data, if anyone has preferences for the next several commodities to be examined pls drop me a note off list and I will try to accommodate. Regards, Charles Hostetler
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np328 #111659 My Guess, would be paper, based on a comment I found in a presentation to a gathering of railroaders. Found in the files section as: Biggest XM Shipper_South001.jpg Of couse, this being correct would depend on a large amount of printing or publishing taking place in the PNW. Jim Dick I also am enjoying the material presented in Charles blog. --- My guess would be that the major commodity in that flow would be carpet from Dalton, GA. Anyone else have any ideas? Jack Wyatt toggle quoted message Show quoted text --- In STMFC@..., Jack Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote: A real oddity on the state-to-state forwarder flows: 4300 carloads a year from Georgia to Washington State? It's by far the largest flow to or from either state. --- Bill in Seattle
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railsnw@frontier.com <railsnw@...> #111661 My thought was somewhat similar, would it be the clay used to make glossy paper? Richard Wilkens toggle quoted message Show quoted text --- In STMFC@..., "np328" <jcdworkingonthenp@...> wrote: My Guess, would be paper, based on a comment I found in a presentation to a gathering of railroaders. Found in the files section as: Biggest XM Shipper_South001.jpg Of couse, this being correct would depend on a large amount of printing or publishing taking place in the PNW. Jim Dick I also am enjoying the material presented in Charles blog. --- My guess would be that the major commodity in that flow would be carpet from Dalton, GA. Anyone else have any ideas? Jack Wyatt --- In STMFC@..., Jack Wyatt <cjwyatt@> wrote: A real oddity on the state-to-state forwarder flows: 4300 carloads a year from Georgia to Washington State? It's by far the largest flow to or from either state. --- Bill in Seattle
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Tim O'Connor #111663 Doesn't Georgia have some airplane (or airplane parts) manufacturing ? With Boeing up in Seattle, could some of this traffic be parts or castings for aircraft? Valuable parts can travel very long distances. T im O'Connor toggle quoted message Show quoted text ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Hostetler" <cesicjh@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:33:21 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight Forwarding A real oddity on the state-to-state forwarder flows: 4300 carloads a year from Georgia to Washington State? It's by far the largest flow to or from either state. I just double checked this flow and it's real, not a typo. It is consistent with the state to state table for Georgia that I published earlier (an excess of 35 tons to Washington from Georgia in 1950), second table at: http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2012/09/georgia-state-to-state-commodity-flows.html So it looks like it is not just a one year anomaly. I will look at this flow in other years when I get back home this weekend. Glad you are enjoying the data, if anyone has preferences for the next several commodities to be examined pls drop me a note off list and I will try to accommodate. Regards, Charles Hostetler
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Bruce Smith #111665 Why are we guessing? Why are we thinking this is such a big deal? First, the blog post at http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/ shows a SAMPLE of the 1957 1% commodity flows by carload. I'm not sure why the states on the list were picked, but it surely isn't even close to complete. Certainly you cannot say that Ga shipped more to Wash than any other state when only 3 states are shown! Second, the 1950 flows show what the product being shipped to Washington is (http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2012/09/georgia-state-to-state-commodity-flows.html) with 13,300 tons of mineral and 6100 tons of misc (total 22,900). This chart also shows that the Ga to Wash traffic is far less than traffic to many other states, and indicates that among states in the region, it is in line and not excessive. (eg Oregon 27500 tons). I'm also not entirely sure where this validates 4200 carloads, since 23,000 tons is, being generous, around 500 car loads or about 1.5 loads per day. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D., Director, Auburn University Research Initiative in Cancer Professor of Pathobiology Scott-Ritchey Research Center Auburn University, AL 36849-5525 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/faculty/pathobiology-faculty/smith_b ********************************************************************************* "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Oct 16, 2012, at 10:02 AM, np328 wrote: My Guess, would be paper, based on a comment I found in a presentation to a gathering of railroaders. Found in the files section as: Biggest XM Shipper_South001.jpg Of couse, this being correct would depend on a large amount of printing or publishing taking place in the PNW. Jim Dick I also am enjoying the material presented in Charles blog. --- My guess would be that the major commodity in that flow would be carpet from Dalton, GA. Anyone else have any ideas? Jack Wyatt --- In STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC@...>, Jack Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote: A real oddity on the state-to-state forwarder flows: 4300 carloads a year from Georgia to Washington State? It's by far the largest flow to or from either state. --- Bill in Seattle
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Tim O'Connor #111668 Back in those days a typical box car load was much less than 40 tons, and LCL loads well under 20 tons. I agree that 5 tons a carload seems a bit on the light side... maybe it's all cigarettes! :-) Tim O'Connor toggle quoted message Show quoted text ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> Why are we guessing? Why are we thinking this is such a big deal? First, the blog post at http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/ shows a SAMPLE of the 1957 1% commodity flows by carload. I'm not sure why the states on the list were picked, but it surely isn't even close to complete. Certainly you cannot say that Ga shipped more to Wash than any other state when only 3 states are shown! Second, the 1950 flows show what the product being shipped to Washington is (http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2012/09/georgia-state-to-state-commodity-flows.html) with 13,300 tons of mineral and 6100 tons of misc (total 22,900). This chart also shows that the Ga to Wash traffic is far less than traffic to many other states, and indicates that among states in the region, it is in line and not excessive. (eg Oregon 27500 tons). I'm also not entirely sure where this validates 4200 carloads, since 23,000 tons is, being generous, around 500 car loads or about 1.5 loads per day. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.,
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C J Wyatt #111669 I was just responding to the statement about the high freight forwarder movements from Georgia to Washington. I suggested that it might be carpet from Dalton, Georgia, the leading production area of tufted carpet in the world. Some have suggested other commodities, but the ones suggested tend to be carload in nature. My understanding is that freight forwarders generally consolidated LCL shipments. A roll of carpet could go railroad LCL. However with all of the handling and being mixed with dissimilar shipments, the damage, I expect, was high. In the case of carpets, I think the attractiveness of freight forwarders would have as much to do with reducing damage as it would price. Expediting the shipping would be a bonus, too. All of this is just a guess, though, but I feel fairly confident that carpets are the answer. Jack Wyatt
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Bruce Smith #111670 Um Tim, 58% of the tonnage was MINERALS. Minerals usually shipped in full car loads and I was generous and said 50 tons (when a "50 ton" car was usually load limited at significantly more than 50 tons) so I'm pretty happy with my estimate of 500 car loads Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield." __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ \|- ______/ O O \_______ -\| \| __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ \| \| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ \| \|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\| \|/_____________________________\\|_\|________________________________\| \| O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O \| 0-0-0 0-0-0 toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Oct 16, 2012, at 10:44 AM, <timboconnor@...<mailto:timboconnor@...>> wrote: Back in those days a typical box car load was much less than 40 tons, and LCL loads well under 20 tons. I agree that 5 tons a carload seems a bit on the light side... maybe it's all cigarettes! :-) Tim O'Connor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...<mailto:smithbf@...>> Why are we guessing? Why are we thinking this is such a big deal? First, the blog post at http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/ shows a SAMPLE of the 1957 1% commodity flows by carload. I'm not sure why the states on the list were picked, but it surely isn't even close to complete. Certainly you cannot say that Ga shipped more to Wash than any other state when only 3 states are shown! Second, the 1950 flows show what the product being shipped to Washington is (http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2012/09/georgia-state-to-state-commodity-flows.html) with 13,300 tons of mineral and 6100 tons of misc (total 22,900). This chart also shows that the Ga to Wash traffic is far less than traffic to many other states, and indicates that among states in the region, it is in line and not excessive. (eg Oregon 27500 tons). I'm also not entirely sure where this validates 4200 carloads, since 23,000 tons is, being generous, around 500 car loads or about 1.5 loads per day. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D., ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> #111672 T im O'Connor wrote: Doesn't Georgia have some airplane (or airplane parts) manufacturing ? With Boeing up in Seattle, could some of this traffic be parts or castings for aircraft? Valuable parts can travel very long distances. True, but that was a different company, Lockheed. Some manufacturing of most planes was spread around among the companies, but rarely major parts in that day, at least for the big players. I would say it's possible but not a major candidate. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> #111673 Bruce Smith wrote: 58% of the tonnage was MINERALS. Minerals usually shipped in full car loads and I was generous and said 50 tons (when a "50 ton" car was usually load limited at significantly more than 50 tons) so I'm pretty happy with my estimate of 500 car loads Usually overloaded at least ten percent. There was a tariff provision that allowed fully loaded bulk cars like hoppers to avoid weighing and just be billed at 110% of nominal capacity, so one guesses it could have been more. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Paul Koehler <buygone@...> #111675 All: If we are talking about Freight Forwarder Traffic, it would have been mixed carloads of a lot of different commodities (FAK freight all kinds) (Think like UPS today). Carpet and cigarettes would have moved in carload lots with possibly a split delivery or deliveries. Check the Tariffs. Paul C. Koehler _____ From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Jack Wyatt Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:55 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Forwarding I was just responding to the statement about the high freight forwarder movements from Georgia to Washington. I suggested that it might be carpet from Dalton, Georgia, the leading production area of tufted carpet in the world. Some have suggested other commodities, but the ones suggested tend to be carload in nature. My understanding is that freight forwarders generally consolidated LCL shipments. A roll of carpet could go railroad LCL. However with all of the handling and being mixed with dissimilar shipments, the damage, I expect, was high. In the case of carpets, I think the attractiveness of freight forwarders would have as much to do with reducing damage as it would price. Expediting the shipping would be a bonus, too. All of this is just a guess, though, but I feel fairly confident that carpets are the answer. Jack Wyatt
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Brad Andonian #111680 Gents, Kaolin is used to manufactur paper products; I would guess this could have been a major part of the shipment lists. This poses two questions from me: 1. what type of car carried this material 2. what road names were they? Thanks, Brad Andonian From: "railsnw@..." <railsnw@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:07 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight Forwarding My thought was somewhat similar, would it be the clay used to make glossy paper? Richard Wilkens --- In mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com, "np328" <jcdworkingonthenp@...> wrote: My Guess, would be paper, based on a comment I found in a presentation to a gathering of railroaders. Found in the files section as: Biggest XM Shipper_South001.jpg Of couse, this being correct would depend on a large amount of printing or publishing taking place in the PNW. Jim Dick I also am enjoying the material presented in Charles blog. --- My guess would be that the major commodity in that flow would be carpet from Dalton, GA. Anyone else have any ideas? Jack Wyatt --- In mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com, Jack Wyatt <cjwyatt@> wrote: A real oddity on the state-to-state forwarder flows: 4300 carloads a year from Georgia to Washington State? It's by far the largest flow to or from either state. --- Bill in Seattle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Tim O'Connor #111682 Bruce 58% of tonnage, carloads == 500 (minerals) 42% of tonnage, carloads == 1000-2000 (lightly loaded cars) My point was that CAR loads is what we're talking about, not tonnage. Tim toggle quoted message Show quoted text ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> To: "<STMFC@...>" <STMFC@...> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 11:55:51 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Forwarding Um Tim, 58% of the tonnage was MINERALS. Minerals usually shipped in full car loads and I was generous and said 50 tons (when a "50 ton" car was usually load limited at significantly more than 50 tons) so I'm pretty happy with my estimate of 500 car loads Regards Bruce
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Tim O'Connor #111684 Kaolin is used for paper coating and many other industrial uses. But I thought most of the paper made in the PNW was either newsprint or kraft paper. Not so? Tim O'Connor toggle quoted message Show quoted text ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Andonian" <cereshill@...> Kaolin is used to manufactur paper products; I would guess this could have been a major part of the shipment lists. This poses two questions from me: 1. what type of car carried this material 2. what road names were they? Thanks, Brad Andonian
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Bruce Smith #111685 Tim, Give it up man... get the math right... 58% of tonnage (minerals) = 13,300 tons = 266 fully loaded cars (50 tons each) 42% of tonnage (misc) = 6,100 tons = 244 half loaded cars (25 tons each) Total - 510 cars... and as we noted, a full carload of minerals in a 50 ton car was likely 55 tons at least, making that 242 car loads, for a total of 486 car loads and making my estimate of 500 look pretty darn accurate ;^) This completely ignores the fact that in 1950 there was certainly the potential that some traffic might be in 70 ton cars, further reducing the car loads. As I said before, I'm not sure what is so special about Ga to Washington. There was more traffic from Ga to Oregon than Ga to Wash... and to lots of other states, so why are we spending all this time on a few cars per day from THE ENTIRE STATE OF GA! I'm mystified. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield." __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ \|- ______/ O O \_______ -\| \| __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ \| \| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ \| \|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\| \|/_____________________________\\|_\|________________________________\| \| O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O \| 0-0-0 0-0-0 toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Oct 16, 2012, at 12:20 PM, <timboconnor@...<mailto:timboconnor@...>> wrote: Bruce 58% of tonnage, carloads == 500 (minerals) 42% of tonnage, carloads == 1000-2000 (lightly loaded cars) My point was that CAR loads is what we're talking about, not tonnage. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...<mailto:smithbf@...>> To: "<STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC@...>>" <STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC@...>> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 11:55:51 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Forwarding Um Tim, 58% of the tonnage was MINERALS. Minerals usually shipped in full car loads and I was generous and said 50 tons (when a "50 ton" car was usually load limited at significantly more than 50 tons) so I'm pretty happy with my estimate of 500 car loads Regards Bruce ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
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Tim O'Connor #111688 Bruce, how can your math be "right" since you have NO NUMBERS except for a single tonnage value of dubious merit -- You're just making it all up, and so am I! As for why we're spending "all this time" -- didn't you get the memo? Model Railroading is fun, as are pointless arguments! Now in 1950, I think a certain percentage of the cars would be 36 foot, 40 ton truss-rod box cars. Please recalculate your numbers taking this factor into account. Tim O' toggle quoted message Show quoted text ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> To: "<STMFC@...>" <STMFC@...> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:37:23 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Forwarding Tim, Give it up man... get the math right... 58% of tonnage (minerals) = 13,300 tons = 266 fully loaded cars (50 tons each) 42% of tonnage (misc) = 6,100 tons = 244 half loaded cars (25 tons each) Total - 510 cars... and as we noted, a full carload of minerals in a 50 ton car was likely 55 tons at least, making that 242 car loads, for a total of 486 car loads and making my estimate of 500 look pretty darn accurate ;^) This completely ignores the fact that in 1950 there was certainly the potential that some traffic might be in 70 ton cars, further reducing the car loads. As I said before, I'm not sure what is so special about Ga to Washington. There was more traffic from Ga to Oregon than Ga to Wash... and to lots of other states, so why are we spending all this time on a few cars per day from THE ENTIRE STATE OF GA! I'm mystified. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield." __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ \|- ______/ O O \_______ -\| \| __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ \| \| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ \| \|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\|__\|\| \|/_____________________________\\|_\|________________________________\| \| O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O \| 0-0-0 0-0-0 On Oct 16, 2012, at 12:20 PM, <timboconnor@...<mailto:timboconnor@...>> wrote: Bruce 58% of tonnage, carloads == 500 (minerals) 42% of tonnage, carloads == 1000-2000 (lightly loaded cars) My point was that CAR loads is what we're talking about, not tonnage. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...<mailto:smithbf@...>> To: "<STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC@...>>" <STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC@...>> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 11:55:51 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight Forwarding Um Tim, 58% of the tonnage was MINERALS. Minerals usually shipped in full car loads and I was generous and said 50 tons (when a "50 ton" car was usually load limited at significantly more than 50 tons) so I'm pretty happy with my estimate of 500 car loads Regards Bruce ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
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