End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar


Marty McGuirk
 

I'm trying to write a blog post on the Central Vermont's 40000-series Howe truss boxcars (ACF, 1924) and can't find the right term to describe perhaps the most unusal spotting features of these cars - that section of hat bracing(?) that spans the top of the end braces. See http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=846362  for a photo.



Any thoughts on what to call this?



Also, am I'm correct in assuming this feature is unique to the CV's Howe truss cars (in many ways the CV's cars were the first of what came to be called the "alternate ARA standard" - which I believe Sunshine may refer to as the "deFacto" ARA standard car.

Thanks in advance,

Marty


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Marty McGuirk <mjmcguirk@...> wrote:




I'm trying to write a blog post on the Central Vermont's 40000-series Howe truss boxcars (ACF, 1924) and can't find the right term to describe perhaps the most unusal spotting features of these cars - that section of hat bracing(?) that spans the top of the end braces. See http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=846362  for a photo.



Any thoughts on what to call this?
Structurally, it's the "end frame top plate." Older designs used an angle section; this design used a pressing. "Pressed steel end top plate" might work.

Dennis


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., Marty McGuirk <mjmcguirk@> wrote:




I'm trying to write a blog post on the Central Vermont's 40000-series Howe truss boxcars (ACF, 1924) and can't find the right term to describe perhaps the most unusal spotting features of these cars - that section of hat bracing(?) that spans the top of the end braces. See http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=846362  for a photo.



Any thoughts on what to call this?
Structurally, it's the "end frame top plate." Older designs used an angle section; this design used a pressing. "Pressed steel end top plate" might work.

Dennis
I hate to reply to my own reply, but it occurs to me that the word
top is redundant, since "plate" implies it is the top member. Here is the definition of "end plate" from the 1922 CBC:

End Plate. A member across the end and connecting the tops of the end posts of a car body and fastened at the ends to the two side plates. It is usually made of the proper form to serve as an end carline.

Dennis


Marty McGuirk
 

I hate to reply to my own reply, but it occurs to me that the word
top is redundant, since "plate" implies it is the top member. Here is the definition of "end plate" from the 1922 CBC:

End Plate. A member across the end and connecting the tops of the end posts of a car body and fastened at the ends to the two side plates. It is usually made of the proper form to serve as an end carline.
Dennis,
First of all, thanks.

Secondly, don't sell my ignorance short. I'm not sure "plate" automatically implies top member - at least to me. There is a steel plate at the bottom of the end on these cars (it's in place of several of the horizontal boards) - when I talked to Jim McFarlene (long time CV chief engineer) about these cars, he mentioned "end plates" - I thought he was referring to the steel plates at the lower portion of the ends - obviously he knew what he was talking about and I misunderstood!

For that reason in the post I think I'll use your suggested terminology and the CBC defintion.

Marty McGuirk


ronald parisi
 

Marty:

I'm sure that this answer will elicit the correct term so here goes: how
about a "drip sill" as it seems to me that its function is to keep water
out of the braces.
I avoided the obvious 'drip strip' as too cute.

Ron Parisi

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Marty McGuirk <mjmcguirk@...>wrote:

**




I'm trying to write a blog post on the Central Vermont's 40000-series Howe
truss boxcars (ACF, 1924) and can't find the right term to describe perhaps
the most unusal spotting features of these cars - that section of hat
bracing(?) that spans the top of the end braces. See
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=846362 for a photo.

Any thoughts on what to call this?

Also, am I'm correct in assuming this feature is unique to the CV's Howe
truss cars (in many ways the CV's cars were the first of what came to be
called the "alternate ARA standard" - which I believe Sunshine may refer to
as the "deFacto" ARA standard car.

Thanks in advance,

Marty

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Robert kirkham
 

How about sheet metal flashing? I don't see a "hat" profile or even a reason to think it is structural (i.e. bracing).

I believe some of the CNR GT cars (similar to the Accurail 4100 series <http://www.accurail.com/accurail/4100.htm> ) had this as well.

Rob Kirkham

--------------------------------------------------
From: "ronald parisi" <ronald.parisi@...>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 12:48 PM
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar

Marty:

I'm sure that this answer will elicit the correct term so here goes: how
about a "drip sill" as it seems to me that its function is to keep water
out of the braces.
I avoided the obvious 'drip strip' as too cute.

Ron Parisi

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Marty McGuirk <mjmcguirk@...>wrote:

I'm trying to write a blog post on the Central Vermont's 40000-series Howe
truss boxcars (ACF, 1924) and can't find the right term to describe perhaps
the most unusal spotting features of these cars - that section of hat
bracing(?) that spans the top of the end braces. See
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=846362 for a photo.

Any thoughts on what to call this?

Also, am I'm correct in assuming this feature is unique to the CV's Howe
truss cars (in many ways the CV's cars were the first of what came to be
called the "alternate ARA standard" - which I believe Sunshine may refer to
as the "deFacto" ARA standard car.

Thanks in advance,

Marty







------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




Robert kirkham
 

OK - I took another look and agree with Dennis' suggested terminology. Didn't notice how the braces are bolted to it my first look.

Rob

--------------------------------------------------
From: "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 11:57 AM
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar

I'm trying to write a blog post on the Central Vermont's 40000-series Howe truss boxcars (ACF, 1924) and can't find the right� term to describe perhaps the most unusal spotting features of these cars - that section of hat bracing(?) that spans the top of the end braces. See http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=846362 � for a photo.
Any thoughts on what to call this?
Structurally, it's the "end frame top plate." Older designs used an angle section; this design used a pressing. "Pressed steel end top plate" might work.

Dennis
I hate to reply to my own reply, but it occurs to me that the word
top is redundant, since "plate" implies it is the top member. Here is the definition of "end plate" from the 1922 CBC:

End Plate. A member across the end and connecting the tops of the end posts of a car body and fastened at the ends to the two side plates. It is usually made of the proper form to serve as an end carline.


Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

Hi Marty,

Clearly the simple and logical way out of your dilemna is to call the piece the "top end plate" as Dennis originally suggested as that eliminates any confusion as to where a "plate" might be applied, top or someplace lower. Like you, and inspite of the CBC definition, I do not accept the terminology that a "plate" is always the piece on top.
That might be the case with wooden construction but I doubt it holds with steel owing to its being rolled as "plate steel". This the "top end plate" seems to be the most appropriate description as it served for more than a simple "drip strip".

Cordially, Don Valentine

--- In STMFC@..., "Marty" <mjmcguirk@...> wrote:

I hate to reply to my own reply, but it occurs to me that the word
top is redundant, since "plate" implies it is the top member. Here is the definition of "end plate" from the 1922 CBC:

End Plate. A member across the end and connecting the tops of the end posts of a car body and fastened at the ends to the two side plates. It is usually made of the proper form to serve as an end carline.
Dennis,
First of all, thanks.

Secondly, don't sell my ignorance short. I'm not sure "plate" automatically implies top member - at least to me. There is a steel plate at the bottom of the end on these cars (it's in place of several of the horizontal boards) - when I talked to Jim McFarlene (long time CV chief engineer) about these cars, he mentioned "end plates" - I thought he was referring to the steel plates at the lower portion of the ends - obviously he knew what he was talking about and I misunderstood!

For that reason in the post I think I'll use your suggested terminology and the CBC defintion.

Marty McGuirk


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Don" <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi Marty,

Clearly the simple and logical way out of your dilemna is to call the piece the "top end plate" as Dennis originally suggested as that eliminates any confusion as to where a "plate" might be applied, top or someplace lower. Like you, and inspite of the CBC definition, I do not accept the terminology that a "plate" is always the piece on top.
That might be the case with wooden construction but I doubt it holds with steel owing to its being rolled as "plate steel". This the "top end plate" seems to be the most appropriate description as it served for more than a simple "drip strip".

Cordially, Don Valentine
I can't say I disagree. The term "plate" was initially used in wood car construction, so there was little confusion with "plate" steel.

Also the member across the bottom of car framing is almost universally called a "sill" (side sill, end sill) because in invariably spreads the load and transmits it to the bolsters. This differs from common architectural usage, where the "sole plate" of a stud wall, for instance, serves to space the studs, but doesn't actually distribute their load, and so isn't actually a sill, and therefore isn't called a sill.

Now that we're through the definition of "plate", the distinctive feature of the piece that both CV and CN used is that it's a steel pressing, rather than a length of standard section structural steel.

Dennis


Guy Wilber
 

Dennis wrote:

"I can't say I disagree. The term "plate" was initially used in wood car construction, so there was little confusion with "plate" steel.

Also the member across the bottom of car framing is almost universally called a "sill" (side sill, end sill) because in invariably spreads the load and transmits it to the bolsters. This differs from common architectural usage, where the "sole plate" of a stud wall, for instance, serves to space the studs, but doesn't actually distribute their load, and so isn't actually a sill, and therefore isn't called a sill."


ARA Plate 305 (circa 1930) is titled: END PLATE. The revised 1930 drawing is a pressed 5/16" member with the first leg being 3 1/8" high, inward section 5" in depth and an upper leg 8 1/4" high. The upper leg is cut to the pitch of the roof.


"Now that we're through the definition of "plate", the distinctive feature of the piece that both CV and CN used is that it's a steel pressing, rather than a length of standard section structural steel."


I am not sure if a standard section was ever utilized for this particular member, at least not within the ARA designs. Flat plate was pressed into the "Z". The drawing called out for a 5/16" radius at each of the two bends. Any other member utilizing a standard section is called out as such.


Kindest Regards,


Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Armand Premo
 

What is wrong with Drip Cap?Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: soolinehistory
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:43 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar





--- In STMFC@..., "Don" <riverman_vt@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Marty,
>
> Clearly the simple and logical way out of your dilemna is to call the piece the "top end plate" as Dennis originally suggested as that eliminates any confusion as to where a "plate" might be applied, top or someplace lower. Like you, and inspite of the CBC definition, I do not accept the terminology that a "plate" is always the piece on top.
> That might be the case with wooden construction but I doubt it holds with steel owing to its being rolled as "plate steel". This the "top end plate" seems to be the most appropriate description as it served for more than a simple "drip strip".
>
> Cordially, Don Valentine

I can't say I disagree. The term "plate" was initially used in wood car construction, so there was little confusion with "plate" steel.

Also the member across the bottom of car framing is almost universally called a "sill" (side sill, end sill) because in invariably spreads the load and transmits it to the bolsters. This differs from common architectural usage, where the "sole plate" of a stud wall, for instance, serves to space the studs, but doesn't actually distribute their load, and so isn't actually a sill, and therefore isn't called a sill.

Now that we're through the definition of "plate", the distinctive feature of the piece that both CV and CN used is that it's a steel pressing, rather than a length of standard section structural steel.

Dennis


Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Armand Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote:

What is wrong with Drip Cap?Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: soolinehistory
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:43 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar
Hi Armand,

Primarily that this is in fact a structural member. Were the design history of the car known to us I suspect we would find that while it was designed as a structural member some engineer was sharp enough to realize it COULD also serve as a drip cap and thus designed it accordingly. I am not aware, however, of such parts being designated by a purpose that is actually secondary to their primary
purpose. Thus the term "drip cap" is not properly descriptive.

Most cordially, Don Valentine





--- In STMFC@..., "Don" <riverman_vt@> wrote:
>
> Hi Marty,
>
> Clearly the simple and logical way out of your dilemna is to call the piece the "top end plate" as Dennis originally suggested as that eliminates any confusion as to where a "plate" might be applied, top or someplace lower. Like you, and inspite of the CBC definition, I do not accept the terminology that a "plate" is always the piece on top.
> That might be the case with wooden construction but I doubt it holds with steel owing to its being rolled as "plate steel". This the "top end plate" seems to be the most appropriate description as it served for more than a simple "drip strip".
>
> Cordially, Don Valentine

I can't say I disagree. The term "plate" was initially used in wood car construction, so there was little confusion with "plate" steel.

Also the member across the bottom of car framing is almost universally called a "sill" (side sill, end sill) because in invariably spreads the load and transmits it to the bolsters. This differs from common architectural usage, where the "sole plate" of a stud wall, for instance, serves to space the studs, but doesn't actually distribute their load, and so isn't actually a sill, and therefore isn't called a sill.

Now that we're through the definition of "plate", the distinctive feature of the piece that both CV and CN used is that it's a steel pressing, rather than a length of standard section structural steel.

Dennis





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Armand Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote:

What is wrong with Drip Cap?Armand Premo
Why call it something it isn't?

Dennis


Armand Premo
 

Just as good as anything else that has been suggested Dennis, <VBG>Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: soolinehistory
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 11:29 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar





--- In STMFC@..., "Armand Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote:
>
> What is wrong with Drip Cap?Armand Premo

Why call it something it isn't?

Dennis


Armand Premo
 

Not to prolong the discussion,but the shape of the object in question is rather unique.Admittedly my knowledge on this subject is limited, but I can't recall ever seeing this shape on any other single sheathed freight car.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Don
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 9:59 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar





--- In STMFC@..., "Armand Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote:
>
> What is wrong with Drip Cap?Armand Premo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: soolinehistory
> To: STMFC@...
> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:43 AM
> Subject: [STMFC] Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar

Hi Armand,

Primarily that this is in fact a structural member. Were the design history of the car known to us I suspect we would find that while it was designed as a structural member some engineer was sharp enough to realize it COULD also serve as a drip cap and thus designed it accordingly. I am not aware, however, of such parts being designated by a purpose that is actually secondary to their primary
purpose. Thus the term "drip cap" is not properly descriptive.

Most cordially, Don Valentine

> --- In STMFC@..., "Don" <riverman_vt@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Marty,
> >
> > Clearly the simple and logical way out of your dilemna is to call the piece the "top end plate" as Dennis originally suggested as that eliminates any confusion as to where a "plate" might be applied, top or someplace lower. Like you, and inspite of the CBC definition, I do not accept the terminology that a "plate" is always the piece on top.
> > That might be the case with wooden construction but I doubt it holds with steel owing to its being rolled as "plate steel". This the "top end plate" seems to be the most appropriate description as it served for more than a simple "drip strip".
> >
> > Cordially, Don Valentine
>
> I can't say I disagree. The term "plate" was initially used in wood car construction, so there was little confusion with "plate" steel.
>
> Also the member across the bottom of car framing is almost universally called a "sill" (side sill, end sill) because in invariably spreads the load and transmits it to the bolsters. This differs from common architectural usage, where the "sole plate" of a stud wall, for instance, serves to space the studs, but doesn't actually distribute their load, and so isn't actually a sill, and therefore isn't called a sill.
>
> Now that we're through the definition of "plate", the distinctive feature of the piece that both CV and CN used is that it's a steel pressing, rather than a length of standard section structural steel.
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Guy Wilber <guycwilber@...> wrote:


ARA Plate 305 (circa 1930) is titled: END PLATE. The revised 1930 drawing is a pressed 5/16" member with the first leg being 3 1/8" high, inward section 5" in depth and an upper leg 8 1/4" high. The upper leg is cut to the pitch of the roof.


"Now that we're through the definition of "plate", the distinctive feature of the piece that both CV and CN used is that it's a steel pressing, rather than a length of standard section structural steel."


I am not sure if a standard section was ever utilized for this particular member, at least not within the ARA designs. Flat plate was pressed into the "Z". The drawing called out for a 5/16" radius at each of the two bends. Any other member utilizing a standard section is called out as such.


Kindest Regards,


Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
Guy,

That's because the ARA designs are quite modern in relation to what we are talking about. You have to back fifteen or twenty years earlier to find examples of fabricated end plates. I looked back through bunch of stuff I copied out of "Railway Mechanical Engineer" years ago, and find a CPR stock car that used a Z section with wood fill above; Milwaukee Road cars whit end plates fabed from flat plate steel and rolled angle, and an N&W car where only the angle is shown on the framing drawing, the sheet steel filler must not have been considered structural.

The common one piece replacement for these fabricated assemblies was a flat plate with the top edge flanged inward and the bottom edge flanged outward to connect with the top of the posts. The part on the CV car takes this a step further, and flanges the bottom leg downward again to connect with both the face of the Z section end posts and the angle section corner posts. This design is hardly unique to the CV; CN used it on several thousand 40' boxcars with composite ends, which, IIRC, were drawn in Mainline Modeler a number of years ago.

Dennis


Marty McGuirk
 

Just to clarify when Jim McFarlane told me about the steel "plate" on the ends of the 40000 series cars I thought he was referring to the flat plate on the bottom of the end that was in place of 3-4 of the lower horizontal boards. The Steam Shack/F&C resin kit duplicates this - sort of - since on the model the steel plate is taller than the prototype.

I will attempt to upload a picture of the end of the car into the Files section - and will add a posting to my blog (www.centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com) shortly.

Marty


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Marty" <mjmcguirk@...> wrote:


Just to clarify when Jim McFarlane told me about the steel "plate" on the ends of the 40000 series cars I thought he was referring to the flat plate on the bottom of the end that was in place of 3-4 of the lower horizontal boards. The Steam Shack/F&C resin kit duplicates this - sort of - since on the model the steel plate is taller than the prototype.

I will attempt to upload a picture of the end of the car into the Files section - and will add a posting to my blog (www.centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com) shortly.

Marty
Getting back to the (top) end plate, here is a link to a photo on the Fallen Flags web site of the CN version. The top plate design is similar, although the end post arrangement is different.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cn/cn502471jpa.jpg

These CN cars are almost the same design as the 1917 Canadian Government Railways cars that my old resin kit was based on. The major difference (other than a couple inches of carbody width, was the design of the end plates... the earlier cars had either a flanged steel plate or a fabrication of plate and rolled angles... I no longer have access to the general arrangement drawing, and I can't recall after all this time.

However, while a flanged steel plate can be made on a flanging machine with no additional tooling, the CN and CV parts are more complicated, and require the construction of a forming die, making these pressed steel parts.

However, I get the feeling the horse I'm beating expired long ago :-(

Dennis