Train Miniature Hart Gondola


Andy Harman
 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261012077998

I picked up one of these at a show last weekend. It was real cheap and I had never seen anything like it before - and I've pretty much seen about every plastic freight car. It had no markings indicating the manufacturer. Painted green with N&W lettering - the half moon logo which seemed too new for the car. The previous owner heavily weathered it (not near as bad as the one in the above ebay auction). I figured it was some AHM car I had never heard of... but later at the same show I found one new in the box - Train Miniature and the box tab said it was a Hart gondola. Oddly enough back in the 70s I thought I had bought one of everything.... but never saw this car before.

I don't think Walthers has ever re-issued it, but maybe it just flew below my radar. It's a pretty crude model, but it's an unusual car and I'm wondering how accurate it is and who may have had them and what they were used for. Maybe add another drop-bottom gondola to my future display shelf which will just include cool gondolas regardless of era, or even scale (I still have an unbuilt PBL Sn3 drop bottom). Right now it's going to the wife's layout since she's the one who found it... if I decide to do a serious build on one and can find good data, I'll seek out an unbuilt original kit to start from.

Andy


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Andy Harman wrote:
I figured it was some AHM car I had never heard of... but later at the same show I found one new in the box - Train Miniature and the box tab said it was a Hart
gondola . . . It's a pretty crude model, but it's an unusual car and I'm wondering how accurate it is and who may have had them and what they were
used for.
The model isn't too bad except for the underbody truss which should NOT be flush with the side sill, but back under the car. I can provide photos of the SP versions to you (off list) if you want.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Scott H. Haycock
 

Tony,
I didn't realize there were 'versions' of this car. I thought it was a standard design, like the Mathers or Pullman-Standard cars.


Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm ent

----- Original Message -----
The model isn't too bad except for the underbody truss which should NOT be flush with the side sill, but back under the car. I can provide photos of the SP versions to you (off list) if you want.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Clark Cooper
 

Andy:

See the December 2011 Railroad Model Craftsman for a review of the ProtoWest Models resin kit of an early all-wood version of the Hart gondola.

Mid-Continent Railway Museum has a composite version built in 1914, from the CNW. Pictures here:

http://www.midcontinent.org/collectn/woodfrt/cnw96791.html

-Clark Cooper

On Oct 28, 2012, at 1:14 AM, Andy Harman wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261012077998

I picked up one of these at a show last weekend. It was real cheap and I
had never seen anything like it before - and I've pretty much seen about
every plastic freight car. It had no markings indicating the
manufacturer. Painted green with N&W lettering - the half moon logo which
seemed too new for the car. The previous owner heavily weathered it (not
near as bad as the one in the above ebay auction). I figured it was some
AHM car I had never heard of... but later at the same show I found one new
in the box - Train Miniature and the box tab said it was a Hart
gondola. Oddly enough back in the 70s I thought I had bought one of
everything.... but never saw this car before.

I don't think Walthers has ever re-issued it, but maybe it just flew below
my radar. It's a pretty crude model, but it's an unusual car and I'm
wondering how accurate it is and who may have had them and what they were
used for. Maybe add another drop-bottom gondola to my future display shelf
which will just include cool gondolas regardless of era, or even scale (I
still have an unbuilt PBL Sn3 drop bottom). Right now it's going to the
wife's layout since she's the one who found it... if I decide to do a
serious build on one and can find good data, I'll seek out an unbuilt
original kit to start from.

Andy


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

An earlier version of this kit (Silver Streak if memory serves) was wood and cardboard with cast metal side trusses that were set back under the car somewhat but not really far enough. The wooden sides came assembled and painted while the metal trusses and all else was unpainted. All the detail was, in my opinion, rather heavy-handed but back in the 1950s it was state-of-the-art.

The prototype of this car was illustrated in more than one Car Builders' Cyclopedia. Because it was handy I'm looking at pages 148 and 150 of the 1922 Cyc. Page 148 has three photos of a C&NW car while 150 has plan and side elevation. There doesn't seem to be an end elevation.

I have a number of Rodger Ballast Car Co. drawings but not this particular car.

Gene Green


 

Scott – These cars were built under contract by AC&F. There were at least 3 iterations as the use of steel increased. You can see them in the AC&F disk offered by Westerfield Models LLC from the new owner. – Al Westerfield

From: Scott H. Haycock
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 6:44 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Miniature Hart Gondola


Tony,
I didn't realize there were 'versions' of this car. I thought it was a standard design, like the Mathers or Pullman-Standard cars.

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm ent
----- Original Message -----
The model isn't too bad except for the underbody truss which should NOT be flush with the side sill, but back under the car. I can provide photos of the SP versions to you (off list) if you want.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tom Vanwormer
 

Protowest scale models produces excellent HO scale models of this car.
While not affiliated with the company, I am a very satisfied customer.
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

Anthony Thompson wrote:



Andy Harman wrote:
I figured it was some AHM car I had never heard of... but later at
the same show I found one new in the box - Train Miniature and the box
tab said it was a Hart
gondola . . . It's a pretty crude model, but it's an unusual car and
I'm wondering how accurate it is and who may have had them and what
they were
used for.
The model isn't too bad except for the underbody truss which should
NOT be flush with the side sill, but back under the car. I can provide
photos of the SP versions to you (off list) if you want.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,
thompson@... <mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history



Doug Junda
 

We did do a model of the Hart Ballets car. Currently we have about 20 of them left in stock. The version the we produced with the all wood version. they could be built with the center doors in any of the configurations. The kits sells for $50.00 they are a resin one piece body with all of the detail part. we provide the Hart/roger decals but, no road names as it seems that quite a few of the railroads had them. They also include trucks with them.

We do not plan on doing a re-run of the kits, so when they are gone that is is.

You can contact me at info@....

Thanks,

Doug Junda


John C. La Rue, Jr. <MOFWCABOOSE@...>
 

One reason for its popularity the first decades of the twentieth century was that it was promoted as being usable for general freight as well as ballast. Ballast in the summer - coal, coke, sugar beets, or what have you during the fall and winter "rushes". This was why the cars were usually found in the ORER in the revenue car list, though often still called "ballast" cars.

Rodger Ballast Car Company patented the center-unloading feature in 1888, and Rodger, in fact, did not manufacture the cars themselves. They took orders, designed the cars, and had them made by established car builders. There was a wide variety of these cars made, especially after improvements patented by E. S. Hart (best known as an electrical engineer) were added. It was then that the cars were marketed as the "Rodger - Hart convertible gondola".

Contrary to the statement by Mid-continental, some versions of the car could dump both center and sides simultaneously. When unloading to the side, the center doors could be "peaked" upwards so that when the side doors were unlatched the ballast simply fell out...most of it, anyway, because there was about a three-plank wide flat ledge along each side. Alternatively, the doors could be laid flat and the ends removed so that the cars could be unloaded by pulling a plow through them, preferably with a Lidgerwood unloader.

Rodger also offered a "double plow distributing car", simply a flat car with a pair of plows under it that were raised and lowered with hand wheels. Red Ball sold a kit for a model of this car for many years. Coupled behind a string of the Trains-Miniature cars, it would make a nice, if somewhat crude (by today's standards) model of an early ballast train.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Harman <gsgondola@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sun, Oct 28, 2012 2:14 am
Subject: [STMFC] Train Miniature Hart Gondola





http://www.ebay.com/itm/261012077998

I picked up one of these at a show last weekend. It was real cheap and I
had never seen anything like it before - and I've pretty much seen about
every plastic freight car. It had no markings indicating the
manufacturer. Painted green with N&W lettering - the half moon logo which
seemed too new for the car. The previous owner heavily weathered it (not
near as bad as the one in the above ebay auction). I figured it was some
AHM car I had never heard of... but later at the same show I found one new
in the box - Train Miniature and the box tab said it was a Hart
gondola. Oddly enough back in the 70s I thought I had bought one of
everything.... but never saw this car before.

I don't think Walthers has ever re-issued it, but maybe it just flew below
my radar. It's a pretty crude model, but it's an unusual car and I'm
wondering how accurate it is and who may have had them and what they were
used for. Maybe add another drop-bottom gondola to my future display shelf
which will just include cool gondolas regardless of era, or even scale (I
still have an unbuilt PBL Sn3 drop bottom). Right now it's going to the
wife's layout since she's the one who found it... if I decide to do a
serious build on one and can find good data, I'll seek out an unbuilt
original kit to start from.

Andy









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Scott Haycock wrote:
Tony,
I didn't realize there were 'versions' of this car. I thought it was a standard design, like the Mathers or Pullman-Standard cars.
If you look at Cycs from the early 20th century, you will see a variety of Hart gondola designs, originally truss rods and all-wood bodies, then with steel underframes and wood superstructures, then with more steel in the body. It was the various Hart mechanisms for dumping inside or outside the rails, or both, that were standard.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
An earlier version of this kit (Silver Streak if memory serves) was wood and cardboard with cast metal side trusses that were set back under the car somewhat but not really far enough. The wooden sides came assembled and painted while the metal trusses and all else was unpainted. All the detail was, in my opinion, rather heavy-handed but back in the 1950s it was state-of-the-art.
The Silver Streak kit is reasonably faithful in many respects (though as Gene says, with kinda crude details -- those can be replaced). The real problem is that like most early Silver Streak cars, it is about ten percent oversize in all dimensions. That's a little challenging to correct. But unless coupled to a correct-size Hart car, it probably won't be evident to most observers.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Doug Junda wrote:
We did do a model of the Hart Ballets car. Currently we have about 20 of them left in stock. The version the we produced with the all wood version. they could be built with the center doors in any of the configurations.
This is a superb kit, but is the earliest truss-rod Hart gondola. That is not the same prototype as either the Silver Streak kit, nor the Train Miniature car. I hope one of these days we do get a quality resin kit like the Protowest car, for the later Hart versions.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 28, 2012, at 10:37 AM, John C. La Rue, Jr. wrote:
One reason for its popularity the first decades of the twentieth
century was that it was promoted as being usable for general
freight as well as ballast. Ballast in the summer - coal, coke,
sugar beets, or what have you during the fall and winter "rushes".
This was why the cars were usually found in the ORER in the revenue
car list, though often still called "ballast" cars.

Rodger Ballast Car Company patented the center-unloading feature in
1888, and Rodger, in fact, did not manufacture the cars themselves.
They took orders, designed the cars, and had them made by
established car builders. There was a wide variety of these cars
made, especially after improvements patented by E. S. Hart (best
known as an electrical engineer) were added. It was then that the
cars were marketed as the "Rodger - Hart convertible gondola".

Contrary to the statement by Mid-continental, some versions of the
car could dump both center and sides simultaneously. When unloading
to the side, the center doors could be "peaked" upwards so that
when the side doors were unlatched the ballast simply fell
out...most of it, anyway, because there was about a three-plank
wide flat ledge along each side. Alternatively, the doors could be
laid flat and the ends removed so that the cars could be unloaded
by pulling a plow through them, preferably with a Lidgerwood unloader.
As usual, John knows what he's talking about. However, it should be
added that the Rodger-Hart design changed rapidly from the turn of
the century, when the cars were 34' long with wood bodies and truss
rod underframes, through the early 1920s. In 1902 they were 36' long
with steel center sills and truss rods under the side sills. By
1906, they had become 40' cars with fishbelly steel side sills, and
later in that same year, further improvement of the design introduced
all steel body framing with wood sheathing and floors. In all of
these designs, the process of converting the car from center to side
dumping and vice-versa was awkward and labor intensive

The Santa Fe bought cars of all these descriptions, all of them
different in appearance. The 34' wood cars didn't last long, and the
36' cars of class Ga-K were short-lived as well, but the 40'
fishbelly-side-sill Ga-N class cars of 1906, the steel-body-frame
cars of class Ga-Q (also 2906), and the similar Ga-S class cars of
1910 largely served the Santa Fe's needs for ballast cars through the
1920s and '30s and many survived through World War II. None of the
Santa Fe Rodger-Hart convertible ballast cars were like the C&NW car
shown in the 1919 and 1922 Car Builders' Cyclopedias, nor at all
similar in appearance to the crude Silver Streak model, much less to
the clumsy and inaccurate Train Miniature model. Those models were
attempts to replicate the design with massive steel truss underframes
that was built for the Southern Pacific in 1920 as their class W-50-3
(and doubtless for some other railroads as well).

Rodger-Hart shifted focus dramatically in the 1920s, developing all-
steel hopper cars which could be dumped to the sides, to the center,
or to any combination of sides and center without reconfiguring the
car. These steel hoppers were 32' long 50 ton cars at first, but by
about 1930s the design had been enlarged to 70 ton cars of about 40'
in length, and these became the most common North American ballast
hoppers on many railroads in the 1940s and '50s. The Santa Fe began
buying them in 1940 to replace its 30+ year old Rodger-Hart gondolas
and by 1953 had purchased 1700 of them.

The Santa Fe's history with these cars is covered in my open top car
book published by the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling
Society (www.atsfrr.com) and the Southern Pacific cars are shown in
Vol. 1 of Tony Thompson's Southern Pacific Freight Cars series
published by Signature Press (www.signaturepress.com).

John is correct in pointing out that all versions of the Rodger-Hart
designs were promoted on the basis that they could be employed in
revenue service as well as ballast service, but on most railroads
they were confined to ballast loading and did not go off-line. The
Union Pacific was one exception, as they often used their Rodger-Hart
ballast cars in coal service when not being used as maintenance-of-
way cars.

Richard Hendrickson


Cyril Durrenberger
 

What prototypes can this kit be used to model?

Cyril Durrenberger

--- On Sun, 10/28/12, Doug Junda <djunda@...> wrote:

From: Doug Junda <djunda@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Train Miniature Hart Gondola
To: STMFC@...
Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 10:02 AM
















 









We did do a model of the Hart Ballets car. Currently we have about 20

of them left in stock. The version the we produced with the all wood

version. they could be built with the center doors in any of the

configurations. The kits sells for $50.00 they are a resin one piece

body with all of the detail part. we provide the Hart/roger decals

but, no road names as it seems that quite a few of the railroads had

them. They also include trucks with them.



We do not plan on doing a re-run of the kits, so when they are gone that

is is.



You can contact me at info@....



Thanks,



Doug Junda

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

Hi All,

Does anyone have a plan or photo of the Hart 34' wood gondola? I would
like to scratch build several for my layout and need some reference. I
have checked the 1906 car builders encyclopedia and did not find a plan.

Joel Holmes

.

As usual, John knows what he's talking about. However, it should be
added that the Rodger-Hart design changed rapidly from the turn of
the century, when the cars were 34' long with wood bodies and truss
rod underframes, through the early 1920s. In 1902 they were 36' long
with steel center sills and truss rods under the side sills. By
1906, they had become 40' cars with fishbelly steel side sills, and
later in that same year, further improvement of the design introduced
all steel body framing with wood sheathing and floors. In all of
these designs, the process of converting the car from center to side
dumping and vice-versa was awkward and labor intensive

The Santa Fe bought cars of all these descriptions, all of them
different in appearance. The 34' wood cars didn't last long, and the
36' cars of class Ga-K were short-lived as well, but the 40'
fishbelly-side-sill Ga-N class cars of 1906, the steel-body-frame
cars of class Ga-Q (also 2906), and the similar Ga-S class cars of
1910 largely served the Santa Fe's needs for ballast cars through the
1920s and '30s and many survived through World War II. None of the
Santa Fe Rodger-Hart convertible ballast cars were like the C&NW car
shown in the 1919 and 1922 Car Builders' Cyclopedias, nor at all
similar in appearance to the crude Silver Streak model, much less to
the clumsy and inaccurate Train Miniature model. Those models were
attempts to replicate the design with massive steel truss underframes
that was built for the Southern Pacific in 1920 as their class W-50-3
(and doubtless for some other railroads as well).


John C. La Rue, Jr. <MOFWCABOOSE@...>
 

Why scratch build? The Protowest resin model is a replica of the 34-foot car.

I have a small 1906 Rodger catalog which has several pictures of this car (called the Model C. S.) , and a drawing; half of it a side elevation and half a cross-section, but neither is detailed enough for scratch-building. I can copy these pages and snail mail them if wanted.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2012 7:57 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Miniature Hart Gondola





Hi All,

Does anyone have a plan or photo of the Hart 34' wood gondola? I would
like to scratch build several for my layout and need some reference. I
have checked the 1906 car builders encyclopedia and did not find a plan.

Joel Holmes

.#AOLMsgPart_1_fd8f601b-d883-444a-b27b-da53eeb71c14 td{color: black;}


Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

Hi John,

Thank you. Yes, please mail me a copy of what you have. I have over 25%
of my cars scratch built. I have plenty of technical information to be
able to get a fairly accurate model, plus I do not like resin, nor do I
like the cost of resin cars. I have a few resin models and some I do not
care at all for.

Currently I am building all of my new cars and buildings from scratch.

My address is:

Joel Holmes
425 Joel Holmes Lane
Cookeville, TN 38501-9633

Thank you very much.

Joel

Why scratch build? The Protowest resin model is a replica of the 34-foot
car.

I have a small 1906 Rodger catalog which has several pictures of this car
(called the Model C. S.) , and a drawing; half of it a side elevation and
half a cross-section, but neither is detailed enough for scratch-building.
I can copy these pages and snail mail them if wanted.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL







-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2012 7:57 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Miniature Hart Gondola





Hi All,

Does anyone have a plan or photo of the Hart 34' wood gondola? I would
like to scratch build several for my layout and need some reference. I
have checked the 1906 car builders encyclopedia and did not find a plan.

Joel Holmes

.#AOLMsgPart_1_fd8f601b-d883-444a-b27b-da53eeb71c14 td{color: black;}