UP box car and USRA single sheathed outside braced box car decal questions


Brad Andonian
 

Gentlemen,

I have a Pac Limited USRA single sheathed outside braced model I need appropriate road names for as well as clarification on the Pac Ltd UP box car.

Is the UP model the same as the image in ted culotta's ARA 1932 box car book [reference page 214]?

Photo is by Mr. Hendrickson---please chime in sir!

Many thanks from the chilly nw

Brad Andonian


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 5, 2013, at 1:59 PM, "cereshill" <cereshill@...> wrote:

Gentlemen,

I have a Pac Limited USRA single sheathed outside braced model I need appropriate road names for.
Appropriate road names for what date? I assume the Pacific Limited model represents the USRA 50 ton single sheathed box cars as built. Some of those cars survived into the early '50s without rebuilding (e.g. Milwaukee, Reading, Southern Pacific) Many others were rebuilt into all steel cars (PMCK&Y) or extensively modified (Pennsylvania RR, Erie) to the point where a model representing the cad as built isn't correct. It's impossible to answer this question without knowing the date being modeled.

Is the UP model the same as the image in ted culotta's ARA 1932 box car book [reference page 214]?

I can't answer that question without seeing the model, or a good image of it, but I doubt it very much. The Union Pacific only owned one box car built to the AAR 1932 specs., B-50-18 class UP 182500. It's highly unlikely that Pat O'Boyle imported models representing a single car.
Since you're citing the image in Ted's book, I assume the model represents a steel sheathed box car, but the Union Pacific owned a lot of those, both built new and rebuilt from older cars. Without more information, that question can't be answered either.

Richard Hendrickson


Bill Welch
 

The Clinchfield's 50-ton SS USRA cars also survived as built, albeit w/AB brake conversion, into the 1950s with CC&O reporting marks.

Al Westerfield captured the very distinctive stenciling spelling out of "Clinchfield" with his decals

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On Jan 5, 2013, at 1:59 PM, "cereshill" wrote:

Gentlemen,

I have a Pac Limited USRA single sheathed outside braced model I need appropriate road names for….
Appropriate road names for what date? I assume the Pacific Limited model represents the USRA 50 ton single sheathed box cars as built. Some of those cars survived into the early '50s without rebuilding (e.g. Milwaukee, Reading, Southern Pacific) Many others were rebuilt into all steel cars (PMCK&Y) or extensively modified (Pennsylvania RR, Erie) to the point where a model representing the cad as built isn't correct. It's impossible to answer this question without knowing the date being modeled.

Is the UP model the same as the image in ted culotta's ARA 1932 box car book [reference page 214]?

I can't answer that question without seeing the model, or a good image of it, but I doubt it very much. The Union Pacific only owned one box car built to the AAR 1932 specs., B-50-18 class UP 182500. It's highly unlikely that Pat O'Boyle imported models representing a single car.
Since you're citing the image in Ted's book, I assume the model represents a steel sheathed box car, but the Union Pacific owned a lot of those, both built new and rebuilt from older cars. Without more information, that question can't be answered either.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Rich Yoder
 

What number is on the Box?
Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
cereshill
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 4:59 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] UP box car and USRA single sheathed outside braced box car
decal questions

Gentlemen,

I have a Pac Limited USRA single sheathed outside braced model I need
appropriate road names for as well as clarification on the Pac Ltd UP box
car.

Is the UP model the same as the image in ted culotta's ARA 1932 box car book
[reference page 214]?

Photo is by Mr. Hendrickson---please chime in sir!

Many thanks from the chilly nw

Brad Andonian



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Appropriate road names for what date? I assume the Pacific Limited model represents the USRA 50 ton single sheathed box cars as built. Some of those cars survived into the early '50s without rebuilding (e.g. Milwaukee, Reading, Southern Pacific) Many others were rebuilt into all steel cars (PMCK&Y) or extensively modified (Pennsylvania RR, Erie) to the point where a model representing the cad as built isn't correct.
Richard is of course right that most railroads rebuilt their USRA cars in later years. That includes SP. All surviving SP USRA box cars were rebuilt in 1949 to an entirely different appearance. A few decrepit ones, not regarded as in sufficiently good condition to rebuild, were assigned to MOW service, but none survived into the 1950s in revenue service.

Since you're citing the image in Ted's book, I assume the model represents a steel sheathed box car, but the Union Pacific owned a lot of those, both built new and rebuilt from older cars. Without more information, that question can't be answered either.
Nope, he cites Ted's 1932 ARA box car book, showing the ONE and only UP car of that design, page 214. This is not remotely like the USRA SS cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Brad Andonian
 

Rich,
 
The USRA model is Pac Ltd 100 Single sheathed outside braced. USRA 40'
 
 
The UP car is at work; cannot check today.    I believe that i have confused you guys---I have two cars that I am inquiring about.
 
Per the listing I have for Pac Ltd:
 
The UP car was Pac Ltd Pl-3100
* I have notes that is it UP #182500  B-50-18.     I am wishing to confirm this is correct.
 
 
Thanks,
Brad Andonian


________________________________
From: Richard Yoder <oscale48@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 2:50 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] UP box car and USRA single sheathed outside braced box car decal questions


 

What number is on the Box?
Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
cereshill
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 4:59 PM
To: mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] UP box car and USRA single sheathed outside braced box car
decal questions

Gentlemen,

I have a Pac Limited USRA single sheathed outside braced model I need
appropriate road names for as well as clarification on the Pac Ltd UP box
car.

Is the UP model the same as the image in ted culotta's ARA 1932 box car book
[reference page 214]?

Photo is by Mr. Hendrickson---please chime in sir!

Many thanks from the chilly nw

Brad Andonian

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Brad Andonian wrote:
The UP car was Pac Ltd Pl-3100
* I have notes that is it UP #182500 B-50-18. I am wishing to confirm this is correct.
That's the right car number. UP owned just ONE of these cars and that's the one. Your call, of course, but I believe that to model rarities just complicates the problem of creating reality in modeling.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 5, 2013, at 2:36 PM, lnbill <fgexbill@...> wrote:
The Clinchfield's 50-ton SS USRA cars also survived as built, albeit w/AB brake conversion, into the 1950s with CC&O reporting marks.
Bill, I was just citing examples, not trying to compile a complete list. Other (smaller) RRs whose USRA 50 ton cars also survived for a long time as built, IIRC, included RF&P, MEC, CNJ. But my point remains that it's impossible to say for sure without knowing the date being modeled.


Richard Hendrickson


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 5, 2013, at 3:01 PM, Brad Andonian <cereshill@...> wrote:

Rich,

The USRA model is Pac Ltd 100 Single sheathed outside braced. USRA 40'


The UP car is at work; cannot check today. I believe that i have confused you guys---I have two cars that I am inquiring about.

Per the listing I have for Pac Ltd:

The UP car was Pac Ltd Pl-3100
* I have notes that is it UP #182500 B-50-18. I am wishing to confirm this is correct.
That's easy to determine, Brad. The single B-50-18 class car was 13'10-1/2" from rails to the top of the running board, while several thousand later UP steel sheathed AAR box cars (classes B-50-19. B-50-21, B-50-24, B-50-27) were 14'7-1/2" - a 9" difference that's easily measured in O scale.

Richard Hendrickson


Brad Andonian
 

Tony

Thank you, what are other appropriate options? Can you post an image!?

Thx
Brad Andonian


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Brad Andonian wrote:
Thank you, what are other appropriate options? Can you post an image!?
I don't have rights to post such images on the web, but I can send you one off-list. What roads would you prefer?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


proto48er
 

Tony -

Pacific Limited did in fact import a model of the single UP boxcar. Pat O'Boyle imported brass models of about 16 different varieties of the 1932 ARA boxcar, with the appropriate roadname on each of the boxes. He also imported a PRR car - I recall that there were 5 cars in that series?? (My info is at home and only computers are at the office. I did not purchase models of the very low quantity prototypes, and will have to look up the data.)

Pat's builder would make cars with an indentical underframe, changing the car sides, roof, ends, doors, ladders and other details to make models of various prototypes. Pat was extremely anal about prototype details and would put together a project with cars having many variations. His NYC USRA steel boxcar project was another example - he did about 15 varieties for them also. The more exotic models were made in quantities of only 15 or 20 cars.

We were very happy to have a great selection of prototypes!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson wrote:

Brad Andonian wrote:
The UP car was Pac Ltd Pl-3100
* I have notes that is it UP #182500 B-50-18. I am wishing to confirm this is correct.
That's the right car number. UP owned just ONE of these cars and that's the one. Your call, of course, but I believe that to model rarities just complicates the problem of creating reality in modeling.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Benjamin Hom
 

A. T. Kott wrote:
"He also imported a PRR car - I recall that there were 5 cars in that series??"

NO!  Just one car - PRR 36986, Class X35.
You were probably thinking about the five demonstator cars.


Ben Hom


proto48er
 

Ben -

You are right! Pat did do the demonstrator cars.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., Benjamin Hom wrote:

A. T. Kott wrote:
"He also imported a PRR car - I recall that there were 5 cars in that series??"

NO!  Just one car - PRR 36986, Class X35.
You were probably thinking about the five demonstator cars.


Ben Hom


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

A.T. Kott wrote:
Tony -
Pacific Limited did in fact import a model of the single UP boxcar. Pat O'Boyle imported brass models of about 16 different varieties of the 1932 ARA boxcar, with the appropriate roadname on each of the boxes.
If I gave the impression I did not believe the car was done, I apologize. I did not think that and did not mean to say it. My comment was that for most modelers, CHOOSING to include this car, which was one of a kind, strikes me as an extreme rarity and a poor addition to a layout freight car fleet. But obviously YMMV.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Benjamin Hom
 

A. T. Kott wrote:
"He also imported a PRR car - I recall that there were 5 cars in that
series??"

I replied:
"NO! Just one car - PRR 36986, Class X35.
You were probably thinking about the five demonstator cars."

A. T. replied:
"You are right! Pat did do the demonstrator cars."

To be fair to A. T., PRR 36986 was one of the five demonstration cars:

ARA 1 -> NYC 100000
ARA 2 -> C&O 1900
ARA 3 -> PRR 36986
ARA 4 -> C&O 1901
ARA 5 -> C&O 1902


Ben Hom


proto48er
 

Tony -

I fully agree with you! Only a card-carrying UP fan would want to purchase one! Pat must have had one such modeler assisting him on the project; hence the UP car. Thanks for your great responses!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson wrote:

A.T. Kott wrote:
Tony -
Pacific Limited did in fact import a model of the single UP boxcar. Pat O'Boyle imported brass models of about 16 different varieties of the 1932 ARA boxcar, with the appropriate roadname on each of the boxes.
If I gave the impression I did not believe the car was done, I apologize. I did not think that and did not mean to say it. My comment was that for most modelers, CHOOSING to include this car, which was one of a kind, strikes me as an extreme rarity and a poor addition to a layout freight car fleet. But obviously YMMV.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


proto48er
 

Ben -

Thanks for providing the identities of the (5) demonstrator cars. I thought the UP car might have been one of them, but I did not purchase any of the PL models unless they had prototype numbers of (50) or more cars (rule to prevent falling off the fiscal model train cliff.) All my train stuff is at home, and I posted from memory.

Thanks for all the great posts on this list!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., Benjamin Hom wrote:

A. T. Kott wrote:
"He also imported a PRR car - I recall that there were 5 cars in that
series??"

I replied:
"NO! Just one car - PRR 36986, Class X35.
You were probably thinking about the five demonstator cars."

A. T. replied:
"You are right! Pat did do the demonstrator cars."

To be fair to A. T., PRR 36986 was one of the five demonstration cars:

ARA 1 -> NYC 100000
ARA 2 -> C&O 1900
ARA 3 -> PRR 36986
ARA 4 -> C&O 1901
ARA 5 -> C&O 1902


Ben Hom


Tim O'Connor
 

Tony,

I subscribe to the contrary philosophy, that says if your layout contains NO unusual cars, then it's not
very representative of most railroads, since one can often spot unusual cars in photos of the prototype.

Of course, all things must be done in moderation. :-)

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "proto48er" <atkott@...>

If I gave the impression I did not believe the car was done, I apologize. I did not think that and did not mean to say it. My comment was that for most modelers, CHOOSING to include this car, which was one of a kind, strikes me as an extreme rarity and a poor addition to a layout freight car fleet. But obviously YMMV.

Tony Thompson


Brad Andonian
 

Hi Fellas,
 
I am having the decals created as I like to have the car correct for the box---   Tony's point is fine except I don't see any other UP decals in O that are readily available---so I may as well have the correct decal made.     Now, would I purchase another of these models---not likely as then to have two of a car when only one existed would create a different dilemma.
 
Anyhow---a lively discussion.
 
Brad Andonian

From: "timboconnor@..." <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: UP box car and USRA single sheathed outside braced box car decal questions

 
Tony,

I subscribe to the contrary philosophy, that says if your layout contains NO unusual cars, then it's not
very representative of most railroads, since one can often spot unusual cars in photos of the prototype.

Of course, all things must be done in moderation. :-)

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "proto48er" mailto:atkott%40swbell.net>

If I gave the impression I did not believe the car was done, I apologize. I did not think that and did not mean to say it. My comment was that for most modelers, CHOOSING to include this car, which was one of a kind, strikes me as an extreme rarity and a poor addition to a layout freight car fleet. But obviously YMMV.

Tony Thompson

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