Topics

Box Car Database


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Hi all,

I have alluded to this in previous posts.

A friend of mine has been working on a database of all box cars built or rebuilt between about 1910 and 1940 as well as any box cars that interested him from before 1910 or after 1940. For the most part the single criteria for inclusion was a steel underframe, either as originally built or added later. This is a car-by-car database and includes renumberings, sales to other railroads, builder and date built, retirement and date of retirement, type of roof, sides, ends, doors, hand brakes, trucks, etc. The database is quite useful.

This fellow has, in the past, asked me not to reveal his name nor forward him queries although I have had access to the database for my own personal use. (Yes, I felt guilty having access to this database and not sharing.) This individual has the scientific background and access to a great deal of information - way more than even the best informed of us - so that his product is of high quality and accuracy.

Today I received an email from this gentleman. I slightly FBI-style redacted version appears below.

Hi Gene -
"Thanks for thinking of me here. . . . . Nothing I can add to the conversation, though I do have service histories for these cars and could add that a mighty handsome #88958 restored to its original PM livery is in the B&O Museum in Baltimore though I'm not sure this info would be useful to the conversation.

"In this line of thinking, I have been coming round to the idea of posting the box car database for download. It would be a sanitized version without my working tables - just those parts that are more or less "finished." Still it would be large, but these days an easy download. I could re-post updated versions every 6 months or so perhaps. Do you have any thoughts of what might be the best venue to do this? Perhaps there is more than one place?"

I would like to pass along any ideas or advice anyone on this forum might care to post either on this forum (if the sheriff approves) or directly to me off list if that seems the better way to go.

At the present time the database is in some sort of ultra-sophisticated software that I don't understand. The software alone, to say nothing of the database itself, so exceeds the capability of any computer I have that I only tried once to download it. How it might be altered to make it available to the plebeian masses is beyond me. I have every confidence this person can do what needs to be done to make it available.

And no, he won't do refrigerator cars even though I am sure that every Santa Fe refrigerator car that ever existed still exists on some farm or ranch out west here. We could give him a running start.

Gene Green


 

I assisted this gentleman for many years, supplying all my history sheets. His work is truly amazing. – Al Westerfield

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 12:34 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Box Car Database


Hi all,

I have alluded to this in previous posts.

A friend of mine has been working on a database of all box cars built or rebuilt between about 1910 and 1940 as well as any box cars that interested him from before 1910 or after 1940. For the most part the single criteria for inclusion was a steel underframe, either as originally built or added later. This is a car-by-car database and includes renumberings, sales to other railroads, builder and date built, retirement and date of retirement, type of roof, sides, ends, doors, hand brakes, trucks, etc. The database is quite useful.

This fellow has, in the past, asked me not to reveal his name nor forward him queries although I have had access to the database for my own personal use. (Yes, I felt guilty having access to this database and not sharing.) This individual has the scientific background and access to a great deal of information - way more than even the best informed of us - so that his product is of high quality and accuracy.

Today I received an email from this gentleman. I slightly FBI-style redacted version appears below.

Hi Gene -
"Thanks for thinking of me here. . . . . Nothing I can add to the conversation, though I do have service histories for these cars and could add that a mighty handsome #88958 restored to its original PM livery is in the B&O Museum in Baltimore though I'm not sure this info would be useful to the conversation.

"In this line of thinking, I have been coming round to the idea of posting the box car database for download. It would be a sanitized version without my working tables - just those parts that are more or less "finished." Still it would be large, but these days an easy download. I could re-post updated versions every 6 months or so perhaps. Do you have any thoughts of what might be the best venue to do this? Perhaps there is more than one place?"

I would like to pass along any ideas or advice anyone on this forum might care to post either on this forum (if the sheriff approves) or directly to me off list if that seems the better way to go.

At the present time the database is in some sort of ultra-sophisticated software that I don't understand. The software alone, to say nothing of the database itself, so exceeds the capability of any computer I have that I only tried once to download it. How it might be altered to make it available to the plebeian masses is beyond me. I have every confidence this person can do what needs to be done to make it available.

And no, he won't do refrigerator cars even though I am sure that every Santa Fe refrigerator car that ever existed still exists on some farm or ranch out west here. We could give him a running start.

Gene Green





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Schuyler Larrabee
 

I hope this will be commonly available. If he’s willing to make it available to all FOR FREE, he is to be truly admired.


SGL



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al and Patricia Westerfield
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 6:42 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Box Car Database





I assisted this gentleman for many years, supplying all my history sheets. His work is truly amazing. – Al Westerfield

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 12:34 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Box Car Database

Hi all,

I have alluded to this in previous posts.

A friend of mine has been working on a database of all box cars built or rebuilt between about 1910 and 1940 as well as any box cars that interested him from before 1910 or after 1940. For the most part the single criteria for inclusion was a steel underframe, either as originally built or added later. This is a car-by-car database and includes renumberings, sales to other railroads, builder and date built, retirement and date of retirement, type of roof, sides, ends, doors, hand brakes, trucks, etc. The database is quite useful.

This fellow has, in the past, asked me not to reveal his name nor forward him queries although I have had access to the database for my own personal use. (Yes, I felt guilty having access to this database and not sharing.) This individual has the scientific background and access to a great deal of information - way more than even the best informed of us - so that his product is of high quality and accuracy.

Today I received an email from this gentleman. I slightly FBI-style redacted version appears below.

Hi Gene -
"Thanks for thinking of me here. . . . . Nothing I can add to the conversation, though I do have service histories for these cars and could add that a mighty handsome #88958 restored to its original PM livery is in the B&O Museum in Baltimore though I'm not sure this info would be useful to the conversation.

"In this line of thinking, I have been coming round to the idea of posting the box car database for download. It would be a sanitized version without my working tables - just those parts that are more or less "finished." Still it would be large, but these days an easy download. I could re-post updated versions every 6 months or so perhaps. Do you have any thoughts of what might be the best venue to do this? Perhaps there is more than one place?"

I would like to pass along any ideas or advice anyone on this forum might care to post either on this forum (if the sheriff approves) or directly to me off list if that seems the better way to go.

At the present time the database is in some sort of ultra-sophisticated software that I don't understand. The software alone, to say nothing of the database itself, so exceeds the capability of any computer I have that I only tried once to download it. How it might be altered to make it available to the plebeian masses is beyond me. I have every confidence this person can do what needs to be done to make it available.

And no, he won't do refrigerator cars even though I am sure that every Santa Fe refrigerator car that ever existed still exists on some farm or ranch out west here. We could give him a running start.

Gene Green

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

It has always been his intention to make it available for free one way or another. It was through Al Westerfield that I became acquainted with this gentleman. The gentleman's late wife spotted an M&StL box car that had been turned into a billboard. The gentleman contacted Mr. Westerfield who in turn referred him to me as I now recall events.

There are a couple of good stories about the box car mentioned above that should be told sometime.

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler.larrabee" wrote:

I hope this will be commonly available. If he’s willing to make it available to all FOR FREE, he is to be truly admired.

SGL

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al and Patricia Westerfield
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 6:42 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Box Car Database

I assisted this gentleman for many years, supplying all my history sheets. His work is truly amazing. â€" Al Westerfield


Schuyler Larrabee
 

There are a couple of good stories about the [M&StL] box car mentioned above
that should be told sometime.

Gene Green




No time like the present, Gene.



Schuyler


Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" wrote:

It has always been his intention to make it available for free one way or another. It was through Al Westerfield that I became acquainted with this gentleman. The gentleman's late wife spotted an M&StL box car that had been turned into a billboard. The gentleman contacted Mr. Westerfield who in turn referred him to me as I now recall events.

There are a couple of good stories about the box car mentioned above that should be told sometime.

Say what, Gene????? An M&StL box car turned into a billboard??
But I thought those were outlawed bak in the 1930's!!!! VBG
Ah well, some would call the New Haven and Bangor & Aroostock red, white and blue cars "billboards" as well.

Cordially, Don Valentine


caboose9792@...
 

Can you site the source of the ruling on "billboards" , particularly the
text of the verdict?

thanks,
Mark Rickert
(going back to lurking)

In a message dated 2/9/2013 10:40:31 A.M. Central Standard Time,
riverman_vt@yahoo.com writes:

Say what, Gene????? An M&StL box car turned into a billboard??
But I thought those were outlawed bak in the 1930's!!!! VBG
Ah well, some would call the New Haven and Bangor & Aroostock red, white
and blue cars "billboards" as well.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mark Rickert wrote:
Can you site the source of the ruling on "billboards" , particularly the text of the verdict?
It's all in the book, Billboard Reefers, by Hendrickson and Kaminski. The ICC ruling itself is quite long, but there was a good summary of it in Railway Age; the latter is reprinted in full in the book.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


arved_grass
 

Throw in the Seaboard B-6 class of 1937. The first order, in 1934, did not originally have any advertisement, but the second order of these "1932 ARA Box Cars" had advertisement for the Orange Blossom Special on them. This was later added to the earlier cars:

See "SAL B-6 Box Cars" by John Golden & Justin May in S-CL Modeler #7, Vol. 3, No. 1, March 2007

Tony Thompson has a short article on his blog on building his model, including a photo of the prototype:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2012/12/small-modeling-project-1932-ara-box-car.html

When the Orange Blossom Special was discontinued, the cars were relettered for the Silver Meteor.

Two of these cars evidently still exist in Savannah, GA. I found a gold-mine of detail photos here:

http://www.trainweb.org/seaboard/classb6(freight).htm

But yes, one of the things John and Justin mentioned in their article was that these cars were pretty unique in their time for having advertisements.

Respectfully submitted,

Arved Grass
Fleming Island, Florida

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Don" wrote:



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" wrote:

It has always been his intention to make it available for free one way or another. It was through Al Westerfield that I became acquainted with this gentleman. The gentleman's late wife spotted an M&StL box car that had been turned into a billboard. The gentleman contacted Mr. Westerfield who in turn referred him to me as I now recall events.

There are a couple of good stories about the box car mentioned above that should be told sometime.

Say what, Gene????? An M&StL box car turned into a billboard??
But I thought those were outlawed bak in the 1930's!!!! VBG
Ah well, some would call the New Haven and Bangor & Aroostock red, white and blue cars "billboards" as well.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Guy Wilber
 

Arved Grass wrote:




"Throw in the Seaboard B-6 class of 1937. The first order, in 1934, did not originally have any advertisement, but the second order of these "1932 ARA Box Cars" had advertisement for the Orange Blossom Special on them. This was later added to the earlier cars:"


I am not sure of your point; but if you are puzzled about The Seaboard decorating its own equipment(?) the 1934 ICC decision regarding Billboard paint schemes did not prevent any railroad from decorating its own equipment regardless of class. The decision was directed at privately owned refrigerator cars.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


arved_grass
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Guy Wilber wrote:
Arved Grass wrote:
"Throw in the Seaboard B-6 class of 1937. The first order, in 1934, did not originally have any advertisement, but the second order of these "1932 ARA Box Cars" had advertisement for the Orange Blossom Special on them. This was later added to the earlier cars:"


I am not sure of your point; but if you are puzzled about The Seaboard decorating its own equipment(?) the 1934 ICC decision regarding Billboard paint schemes did not prevent any railroad from decorating its own equipment regardless of class. The decision was directed at privately owned refrigerator cars.
Thank you, Guy. I'm not that familiar with the decision. I'll have to read up on it.

Off-list, I was chided for using the phrase "pretty unique." While "unique" is listed in authoritative references as a synonym for "unusual," there is difference enough in meaning that the phrase "pretty unusual" would have been better. The word "pretty" modifies "unique" in a way totally outside the definition of "unique." It's the equivalent of saying someone is "a little pregnant." One is either pregnant, or not, and something is either unique, or it is not.

The passage that inspired this is:

"They were the first Seaboard cars to wear a slogan and established Seaboard as an industry leader for using freight cars as rolling advertisements." (The Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler, Vol. 3, No. 1, Mar 2009, p.18)

I'm afraid I don't see this as "industry leading" in the context of the ICC telling private refrigerator car owners to stop doing exactly that.

So, yeah, I should read more, and type less. :-( My apologies on all fronts.

Arved Grass
Fleming Island, Florida


John
 

Gene:

This thread sort of got off-track (pun intended), but back to the original, have you talked to this guy any further about posting the boxcar database? Is it in Oracle or something like that? If so, he should be able to export it as a flat Excel table so that us folk without zillion dollar software can download and use it. The problem could be that he built it as a fully relational database, which would make it difficult to download as a flat table in which case it would have to be put into separate tables that could be linked by the user.

-- John

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" wrote:

Hi all,

I have alluded to this in previous posts.

A friend of mine has been working on a database of all box cars built or rebuilt between about 1910 and 1940 as well as any box cars that interested him from before 1910 or after 1940. For the most part the single criteria for inclusion was a steel underframe, either as originally built or added later. This is a car-by-car database and includes renumberings, sales to other railroads, builder and date built, retirement and date of retirement, type of roof, sides, ends, doors, hand brakes, trucks, etc. The database is quite useful.

This fellow has, in the past, asked me not to reveal his name nor forward him queries although I have had access to the database for my own personal use. (Yes, I felt guilty having access to this database and not sharing.) This individual has the scientific background and access to a great deal of information - way more than even the best informed of us - so that his product is of high quality and accuracy.

Today I received an email from this gentleman. I slightly FBI-style redacted version appears below.

Hi Gene -
"Thanks for thinking of me here. . . . . Nothing I can add to the conversation, though I do have service histories for these cars and could add that a mighty handsome #88958 restored to its original PM livery is in the B&O Museum in Baltimore though I'm not sure this info would be useful to the conversation.

"In this line of thinking, I have been coming round to the idea of posting the box car database for download. It would be a sanitized version without my working tables - just those parts that are more or less "finished." Still it would be large, but these days an easy download. I could re-post updated versions every 6 months or so perhaps. Do you have any thoughts of what might be the best venue to do this? Perhaps there is more than one place?"

I would like to pass along any ideas or advice anyone on this forum might care to post either on this forum (if the sheriff approves) or directly to me off list if that seems the better way to go.

At the present time the database is in some sort of ultra-sophisticated software that I don't understand. The software alone, to say nothing of the database itself, so exceeds the capability of any computer I have that I only tried once to download it. How it might be altered to make it available to the plebeian masses is beyond me. I have every confidence this person can do what needs to be done to make it available.

And no, he won't do refrigerator cars even though I am sure that every Santa Fe refrigerator car that ever existed still exists on some farm or ranch out west here. We could give him a running start.

Gene Green


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

John,
I don't know enough about database stuff to answer your questions so I shall forward your message to the gentleman in question and see what he has to say.
Gene Green

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Sykes" wrote:

Gene:

This thread sort of got off-track (pun intended), but back to the original, have you talked to this guy any further about posting the boxcar database? Is it in Oracle or something like that? If so, he should be able to export it as a flat Excel table so that us folk without zillion dollar software can download and use it. The problem could be that he built it as a fully relational database, which would make it difficult to download as a flat table in which case it would have to be put into separate tables that could be linked by the user.

-- John

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" wrote:

Hi all,

I have alluded to this in previous posts.

A friend of mine has been working on a database of all box cars built or rebuilt between about 1910 and 1940 as well as any box cars that interested him from before 1910 or after 1940. For the most part the single criteria for inclusion was a steel underframe, either as originally built or added later. This is a car-by-car database and includes renumberings, sales to other railroads, builder and date built, retirement and date of retirement, type of roof, sides, ends, doors, hand brakes, trucks, etc. The database is quite useful.

This fellow has, in the past, asked me not to reveal his name nor forward him queries although I have had access to the database for my own personal use. (Yes, I felt guilty having access to this database and not sharing.) This individual has the scientific background and access to a great deal of information - way more than even the best informed of us - so that his product is of high quality and accuracy.

Today I received an email from this gentleman. I slightly FBI-style redacted version appears below.

Hi Gene -
"Thanks for thinking of me here. . . . . Nothing I can add to the conversation, though I do have service histories for these cars and could add that a mighty handsome #88958 restored to its original PM livery is in the B&O Museum in Baltimore though I'm not sure this info would be useful to the conversation.

"In this line of thinking, I have been coming round to the idea of posting the box car database for download. It would be a sanitized version without my working tables - just those parts that are more or less "finished." Still it would be large, but these days an easy download. I could re-post updated versions every 6 months or so perhaps. Do you have any thoughts of what might be the best venue to do this? Perhaps there is more than one place?"

I would like to pass along any ideas or advice anyone on this forum might care to post either on this forum (if the sheriff approves) or directly to me off list if that seems the better way to go.

At the present time the database is in some sort of ultra-sophisticated software that I don't understand. The software alone, to say nothing of the database itself, so exceeds the capability of any computer I have that I only tried once to download it. How it might be altered to make it available to the plebeian masses is beyond me. I have every confidence this person can do what needs to be done to make it available.

And no, he won't do refrigerator cars even though I am sure that every Santa Fe refrigerator car that ever existed still exists on some farm or ranch out west here. We could give him a running start.

Gene Green


Dave Nelson
 

There are more problems than just the difficulties of using a fully
relational database... there's getting the correct structure and more
importantly, the right data. The hard nut to crack is this: One car design
can have multiple car series, each one of which can have multiple builders.
That's not too hard to set up and load. But once you add time (e.g.,
another year of ORER data so you can show the number of cars on hand) you
add a large degree of complexity: Some of that ORER data belongs with the
design and so it needs to be recorded only once. Qty on hand belongs with
the car series + year. Still manageable but more complex. Now add easily
changeable things, like new ends. It happens in a given year, not
necessarily one where you have QRER data for qty on hand. It occurs for
some cars series but not all. It may change internal Cubic Feet. What
you've got there is a revision to the design that's time specific, which
means you now need a second row for the design data, with a date. At this
point you've got a very complex data problem to take care of, one that's not
easily done w/o a custom built program to create new rows and plug in
correct data. For instance, does that physical revision apply to an entire
car series or just a subset? Several Car series but not all? Now add
renumberings and/or car series splits and/or consolidations. Also time
dependent, also not necessarily the same year as any other time based data
you have. So in quick order, things we know about and might want to track
over time have created an unusually complex data structure that requires
unusually complex queries, not only because of the different years but also
from the splitting and merging of what started out as a simple list of data.
And then the cars are sold to another RR. The technical name for this
situation is slowly changing keys, something which always is a very, very
difficult puzzle to solve because commonly used relational databases are not
well adapted for this sort of data.

All of which leads me to conclude that nobody on their own is going to come
up with the right way to manage such routinely occurring RR facts w/o
several skilled professionals being deeply involved in the design and
construction of a complete App. Once you get that, it's not going to be
hard at all to append a few review screens and/or tie into Excel, which is,
IMO, what the end user is going to want to use no matter what due its ease
of sorting, filtering, and summing.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
Gene:

This thread sort of got off-track (pun intended), but back to the original,
have you talked to this guy any further about posting the boxcar database?
Is it in Oracle or something like that? If so, he should be able to export
it as a flat Excel table so that us folk without zillion dollar software can
download and use it. The problem could be that he built it as a fully
relational database, which would make it difficult to download as a flat
table in which case it would have to be put into separate tables that could
be linked by the user.

-- John


caboose9792@...
 

That was my point. I just couldn't word it in a way that wouldn't sound
condescending to somebody. Just last week a local business had two tank cars
advertising the liquid fertilizer inside the cars. The point of the ICC rule
was that the advertisement had to be for the leaser of the car for there
dedicated use.Cars that were free running could not be used to advertise
products. Some samples of steel private road Ice bunker reefers can be found
at IRM in parts storage service behind barn 4 (electric car shops) on 41 &
42 tracks.

FYI: 40 track is the freight car RIP track and when I'm on the property I'm
usually sending paint and rust flying with the needle chipper. Even if its
not me there are several freight car fans over there.

Mark R

In a message dated 2/11/2013 7:34:59 A.M. Central Standard Time,
guycwilber@aol.com writes:

Arved Grass wrote:

"Throw in the Seaboard B-6 class of 1937. The first order, in 1934, did
not originally have any advertisement, but the second order of these "1932
ARA Box Cars" had advertisement for the Orange Blossom Special on them. This
was later added to the earlier cars:"

I am not sure of your point; but if you are puzzled about The Seaboard
decorating its own equipment(?) the 1934 ICC decision regarding Billboard
paint schemes did not prevent any railroad from decorating its own equipment
regardless of class. The decision was directed at privately owned
refrigerator cars.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Dave,
I'm not sure what point you are making here, possibly because you appear to have much more knowledge than do I and your vocabulary goes over my head. You certainly seem to have outlined great difficulties either in such a project or in making data available to the masses.

Just to give you an idea of where I am intellectually here, I'm still using an Ashton-Tate (dBase) product in a 286 computer with 32K of RAM. It is at least 25 years old which is millennial in computer years.

I can assure you and John that Excel is totally inadequate for the mountain of data accumulated by this gentleman. The software this gentleman is using is far more complex than (and expensive than) anything Microsoft has to offer.

The work on this database has been going on for 15 years that I know of and I got involved long after he started, judging by the amount of data available when I first learned of the project.

His original plan was to set up a server, store all the data there and allow users to go there to make their queries. It has always been his intention to make the data available to all for free.

Dave and John, your remarks will be forwarded to the gentleman who will understand what you are saying. Thank you for your comments.

Gene Green


Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Mark,
I'm puzzled! Your remarks do not seem related to the subject line. What am I missing? Since I've already confessed my ignorance once this evening . . .

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, caboose9792@... wrote:

That was my point. I just couldn't word it in a way that wouldn't sound
condescending to somebody. Just last week a local business had two tank cars
advertising the liquid fertilizer inside the cars. The point of the ICC rule
was that the advertisement had to be for the leaser of the car for there
dedicated use.Cars that were free running could not be used to advertise
products. Some samples of steel private road Ice bunker reefers can be found
at IRM in parts storage service behind barn 4 (electric car shops) on 41 &
42 tracks.

FYI: 40 track is the freight car RIP track and when I'm on the property I'm
usually sending paint and rust flying with the needle chipper. Even if its
not me there are several freight car fans over there.

Mark R


In a message dated 2/11/2013 7:34:59 A.M. Central Standard Time,
guycwilber@... writes:

Arved Grass wrote:

"Throw in the Seaboard B-6 class of 1937. The first order, in 1934, did
not originally have any advertisement, but the second order of these "1932
ARA Box Cars" had advertisement for the Orange Blossom Special on them. This
was later added to the earlier cars:"

I am not sure of your point; but if you are puzzled about The Seaboard
decorating its own equipment(?) the 1934 ICC decision regarding Billboard
paint schemes did not prevent any railroad from decorating its own equipment
regardless of class. The decision was directed at privately owned
refrigerator cars.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada





caboose9792@...
 

Goes back to the ICC ruling sub-discussion, The thread comments are in the
lines below my comment as were the reply's before that. I was just trying
to stamp out any false/inaccurate/misleading information on the group,
particularly when the information is out there. This has gotten way off the org
anal topic so I'll make no more additions to this thread along this line of
reasoning.

Mark Rickert

In a message dated 2/16/2013 10:47:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,
bierglaeser@yahoo.com writes:

Mark,
I'm puzzled! Your remarks do not seem related to the subject line. What am
I missing? Since I've already confessed my ignorance once this evening . .
.

Gene Green