Date
1 - 20 of 25
covered Hoppers
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BillM
How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.
Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949. Thank you Bill Michael |
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Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
Bill,
Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars. It was most likely that these cars carried cement. As for specific hardware, I don't know that any specific hardware could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried. Bill Daniels On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "BillM" <fecbill@...> wrote: How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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BillM
Bill
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Thank you for the information. That helps. Blessings Bill --- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:
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John
Au contraire.
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First of all the size of the car. Two or three bay covered hoppers carry high density products such as cement, kaolin or lime (or in the good old days, carbon black). Four and five bay covered hoppers carry lighter materials such as plastic pellets, grain or flour. The cars carrying powdery or plastic products usually have circular loading hatches and either pneumatic or gravity outlet gates (more often, pneumatic). Grain cars have long loading hatches and have gravity outlets. Rule of thumb if you are modeling - substance that are powdery or blown into the car = circular hatches, grain(which doesn't flow that well) = long trouths. By the same token - substances that are unloaded pneumatically (again, powdery or light weight materials) = obviously, pneumatic outlets. Things that flow into underground hoppers when unloading(wheat, corn) = sliding outlet gates. Now, what is in what car? If you buy a decorated car, usually RR owned cars (e.g., UPRR)or cars labeled for some agricultural owner (e.g., Wagner Mills, ADM, Cargill) are grain (some exceptions), if labeled for something like Dow, or duPont, probably plastic (although duPont also made titanium dioxide for paint & paper making - which is a high density powder material). I think most GATX, UTLX and other leased cars are used for plastic pellets, but some may be used for grain. If it is labeled Lone Star or CEMEX it is for cement. -- John --- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:
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gary laakso
Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, Vol 16 at page 62 reprints an ad from General American Transportation Corp and in the last paragraph it claims leadership in “the new insulated hopper cars from bulk sugar transportation”. The ad is undated but likely run in early 1935. Is it safe to assume that the ad referenced as experimental car and would it have been a covered insulated hopper?
gary laakso south of Mike Brock [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
Sorry, John, but while what you are talking about was true for covered hoppers from the mid 60's and later, Bill's question refers to cars that had a date of 1949 and in particular they are Kato two-bay ACF 70 ton hoppers. Four and five bay covered hoppers (with a few exceptions like PRR's H31 and 32 classes) were relatively unknown. Grain was universally carried in 40' boxcars (and would continue to be carried in boxcars until the late 1960's). Likewise, trough hatches, pneumatic outlet gates and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era.
Bill Daniels San Francisco, CA ________________________________ From: John Sykes <John.Sykes@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 2:20 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers Au contraire. First of all the size of the car. Two or three bay covered hoppers carry high density products such as cement, kaolin or lime (or in the good old days, carbon black). Four and five bay covered hoppers carry lighter materials such as plastic pellets, grain or flour. The cars carrying powdery or plastic products usually have circular loading hatches and either pneumatic or gravity outlet gates (more often, pneumatic). Grain cars have long loading hatches and have gravity outlets. Rule of thumb if you are modeling - substance that are powdery or blown into the car = circular hatches, grain(which doesn't flow that well) = long trouths. By the same token - substances that are unloaded pneumatically (again, powdery or light weight materials) = obviously, pneumatic outlets. Things that flow into underground hoppers when unloading(wheat, corn) = sliding outlet gates. Now, what is in what car? If you buy a decorated car, usually RR owned cars (e.g., UPRR)or cars labeled for some agricultural owner (e.g., Wagner Mills, ADM, Cargill) are grain (some exceptions), if labeled for something like Dow, or duPont, probably plastic (although duPont also made titanium dioxide for paint & paper making - which is a high density powder material). I think most GATX, UTLX and other leased cars are used for plastic pellets, but some may be used for grain. If it is labeled Lone Star or CEMEX it is for cement. -- John --- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:
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Allen Cain <allencain@...>
I just checked the January 1954 ORER (do not have an earlier one) and all of
the covered hoppers owned by the Milwaukee Road were 29 ft 3 in long but had 70 Ton capacity. This would support that they were intended for carrying high density loads such as cement. And the notes indicated that most, if not all had eight 3 ft by 3 ft square doors on the roof. Now I am NOT a Milwaukee road expert by any stretch of the imagination and am offering this for consideration only and I yield to the experts. Allen Cain |
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Gene <bierglaeser@...>
While researching for the CGW Color Guide I was handed a list of covered hopper assignments. The CGW covered hoppers are of the same type and same age as those in Bill Michaels original question.
While the cars in a given series were identical, they were assigned to a specific service AND a specific loading point by car number. The cars would have been loaded at the same point repeatedly and unloaded wherever they were sent. Weathering would eventually become the only clue to the assigned service if there was any clue at all. For those cars painted black and assigned to cement service the weathering pattern should be obvious. These short, 70-ton capacity, 2-bay covered hoppers were assigned to service hauling the aforementioned cement, fertilizer, lime and meal. The lime weathering might resemble the cement weathering. The M&StL received its first (and only) grain hoppers in 1958 from Pullman-Standard. Imagine taking your Kato car and stretching it to a 3-bay configuration and you have the M&StL's grain hoppers. These were certainly very small cars by today's standards. The M&StL was rarely an innovator so I imagine some other railroads also had these grain hoppers before the M&StL In the M&StL's case, cement hoppers were stenciled for cement service and the grain hoppers for grain service but this was for advertising, not to instruct crews doing the switching. Gene Green |
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John
Bill:
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Yes, I knew that when I was writing my reply. Point is, before the 1960's covered hoppers were almost always used for dense, bulk products such as cement, lime, fertilizers, kaolin, carbon black and locomotive sand (dried). In fact most boxcars had markings on the inside walls showing how deep different grains or other agricultural products (flour) could be loaded without exceeding the weight limit of the car. Since railroads had so many boxcars (in some cases, over 50% of their freight car fleets) and the need for agricultural use was usually limited to the autumn, there was no big impetus to develop special purpose cars for this service. Instead, you had things like Signode grain doors and hatches in the roofs added to standard box cars. It was the increase in load limits and the demise in the standard house cars of the late 1960's due to containerization that led to development of special-purpose covered hoppers, although experimentation with such cars started as early as the 1940's at least. -- John --- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:
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Ken O'Brien
The weights, car and hatch dimensions are similar to Lacakawanna covered hoppers purchased from AC&F in 1950-53. And they were cement haulers. F&C has kits for these cars.
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Ken --- In STMFC@..., "Allen Cain" <allencain@...> wrote:
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Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
John,
I would agree with your comments, but it was the Southern's Big John covered hopper along with changes in rate structures in the 60's that led to the change-over to covered hoppers from boxcars. And, by then, the former "standard" 40' boxcar was becoming a thing of the past... although large fleets of them lingered on into the 1970's. Then the 40 year rule started kicking in and older cars disappeared. Bill Daniels San Francisco, CA ________________________________ From: John Sykes <John.Sykes@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 7:31 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers Bill: Yes, I knew that when I was writing my reply. Point is, before the 1960's covered hoppers were almost always used for dense, bulk products such as cement, lime, fertilizers, kaolin, carbon black and locomotive sand (dried). In fact most boxcars had markings on the inside walls showing how deep different grains or other agricultural products (flour) could be loaded without exceeding the weight limit of the car. Since railroads had so many boxcars (in some cases, over 50% of their freight car fleets) and the need for agricultural use was usually limited to the autumn, there was no big impetus to develop special purpose cars for this service. Instead, you had things like Signode grain doors and hatches in the roofs added to standard box cars. It was the increase in load limits and the demise in the standard house cars of the late 1960's due to containerization that led to development of special-purpose covered hoppers, although experimentation with such cars started as early as the 1940's at least. -- John --- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Greg Martin
Bill writes:
...and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era. Bill. You are going to say, "dang-it, I know that" when I remind you that the PRR shop built H33's were delivered with roller bearing journals in their trucks. Greg Martin |
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rwitt_2000
--- In STMFC@..., "Ken" <kobrien1600@...> wrote:
covered hoppers purchased from AC&F in 1950-53. And they were cement haulers. F&C has kits for these cars. and all of but hadthe covered hoppers owned by the Milwaukee Road were 29 ft 3 in long carrying70 Ton capacity. This would support that they were intended for most, ifhigh density loads such as cement. And the notes indicated that NOT anot all had eight 3 ft by 3 ft square doors on the roof. Now I am offering thisMilwaukee road expert by any stretch of the imagination and am We had a similar discussion about pre-1960 covered hoppers about a monthfor consideration only and I yield to the experts. ago starting with message # 114624. 114624 2 bay covered hoppers & auto and DD boxcars in grain service <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/message/114624> Regards, Bob Witt |
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Greg Martin
John.
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Most products like this shipped on a per-hundred weight so other than the railroads protecting their assets by having a higher tariff on some car types it really didn't mater as the commodity was programmed to hit Chicago at the same price... Even if it wasn't going there. Greg Martin Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it. Norman Maclean In a message dated 3/17/2013 7:31:30 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
John.Sykes@... writes: Bill: Yes, I knew that when I was writing my reply. Point is, before the 1960's covered hoppers were almost always used for dense, bulk products such as cement, lime, fertilizers, kaolin, carbon black and locomotive sand (dried). In fact most boxcars had markings on the inside walls showing how deep different grains or other agricultural products (flour) could be loaded without exceeding the weight limit of the car. Since railroads had so many boxcars (in some cases, over 50% of their freight car fleets) and the need for agricultural use was usually limited to the autumn, there was no big impetus to develop special purpose cars for this service. Instead, you had things like Signode grain doors and hatches in the roofs added to standard box cars. It was the increase in load limits and the demise in the standard house cars of the late 1960's due to containerization that led to development of special-purpose covered hoppers, although experimentation with such cars started as early as the 1940's at least. -- John --- In _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) , Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote: hoppers from the mid 60's and later, Bill's question refers to cars that had a date of 1949 and in particular they are Kato two-bay ACF 70 ton hoppers. Four and five bay covered hoppers (with a few exceptions like PRR's H31 and 32 classes) were relatively unknown. Grain was universally carried in 40' boxcars (and would continue to be carried in boxcars until the late 1960's). Likewise, trough hatches, pneumatic outlet gates and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era. high density products such as cement, kaolin or lime (or in the good old days, carbon black). Four and five bay covered hoppers carry lighter materials such as plastic pellets, grain or flour. The cars carrying powdery or plastic products usually have circular loading hatches and either pneumatic or gravity outlet gates (more often, pneumatic). Grain cars have long loading hatches and have gravity outlets. Rule of thumb if you are modeling - substance that are powdery or blown into the car = circular hatches, grain(which doesn't flow that well) = long trouths. By the same token - substances that are unloaded pneumatically (again, powdery or light weight materials) = obviously, pneumatic outlets. Things that flow into underground hoppers when unloading(wheat, corn) = sliding outlet gates. cars (e.g., UPRR)or cars labeled for some agricultural owner (e.g., Wagner Mills, ADM, Cargill) are grain (some exceptions), if labeled for something like Dow, or duPont, probably plastic (although duPont also made titanium dioxide for paint & paper making - which is a high density powder material). I think most GATX, UTLX and other leased cars are used for plastic pellets, but some may be used for grain. If it is labeled Lone Star or CEMEX it is for cement. Daniels <billinsf@> wrote: that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the> Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars. It was most likely that these cars carried cement. could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried. cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering. lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
Greg,
Actually what I'm going to say is "Dang! I didn't know that..." I really wasn't aware (but I am not surprised) that the Pennsy was that much ahead of the curve regarding roller bearings on freight cars. As you know, most roads resisted roller bearings for the main reason that they felt that other roads would reap the benefits while they paid for the premium bearings. Maybe the PRR felt that these cars would be in mostly captive service... I know that I never saw one (except on a neighbor's Lionel train set). Bill Daniels San Francisco, CA ________________________________ From: "tgregmrtn@..." <tgregmrtn@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers Bill writes: ...and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era. Bill. You are going to say, "dang-it, I know that" when I remind you that the PRR shop built H33's were delivered with roller bearing journals in their trucks. Greg Martin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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John,
Um, carbon black was not a dense bulk proiduct and hence the carbon black LOs were some of the largest covered hoppers of the WWII era. regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ________________________________________ From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of John Sykes [John.Sykes@...] Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:31 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers Bill: Yes, I knew that when I was writing my reply. Point is, before the 1960's covered hoppers were almost always used for dense, bulk products such as cement, lime, fertilizers, kaolin, carbon black and locomotive sand (dried). In fact most boxcars had markings on the inside walls showing how deep different grains or other agricultural products (flour) could be loaded without exceeding the weight limit of the car. Since railroads had so many boxcars (in some cases, over 50% of their freight car fleets) and the need for agricultural use was usually limited to the autumn, there was no big impetus to develop special purpose cars for this service. Instead, you had things like Signode grain doors and hatches in the roofs added to standard box cars. It was the increase in load limits and the demise in the standard house cars of the late 1960's due to containerization that led to development of special-purpose covered hoppers, although experimentation with such cars started as early as the 1940's at least. -- John --- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:
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Greg Martin
Bill you wrote:
Greg, Actually what I'm going to say is "Dang! I didn't know that..." I really wasn't aware (but I am not surprised) that the Pennsy was that much ahead of the curve regarding roller bearings on freight cars. As you know, most roads resisted roller bearings for the main reason that they felt that other roads would reap the benefits while they paid for the premium bearings. Maybe the PRR felt that these cars would be in mostly captive service... I know that I never saw one (except on a neighbor's Lionel train set). Bill Daniels San Francisco, CA Bill, Actually, I might not say that as the PRR was one of the most frugal railroads I have ever known. You would think that they would have extended the practice on the H34(and sub classes)program and by the time they got to the H34d that were built at the company shops rode on reused Crown Trucks. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle... 3^) Greg Martin Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it. Norman Maclean |
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cinderandeight@...
Greg,
I agree. The PRR repair instruction sheets are full of examples of what to keep from scrapped cars, and where to reuse the items. In the case of H34D, the PS covered hopper bodies were assembled from kits in the PRR shops, and I think most of the appliances came from scrapped cars. The cars were stenciled as "rebuilt" cars, and I examined their underframes "back in the day" and found they didn't resemble the PS built H34-H34C cars at all, leading me to suspect that their channels might have also come from scrapped hopper cars. The PRR was actually sort of slow to adopt roller bearing trucks, they stayed with plain bearings well into the 1960's. But they did experiments with roller bearing as early as the 1930's with a train of H21A Hopper cars so equipped. Besides the H33 use of roller bearings I think some of the H30A covered hopper, also built in the early 1950's, had them. It would seem that the added initial cost of roller bearing trucks would be offset by the reduced labor costs of repacking and oiling plain bearing trucks at some point. Rich Burg |
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Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
Not only those savings, Rich, but the savings from a much reduced risk of hotboxes and derailments that were caused by hotboxes.
Bill Daniels San Francisco, CA ________________________________ From: "cinderandeight@..." <cinderandeight@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 12:13 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers Greg, I agree. The PRR repair instruction sheets are full of examples of what to keep from scrapped cars, and where to reuse the items. In the case of H34D, the PS covered hopper bodies were assembled from kits in the PRR shops, and I think most of the appliances came from scrapped cars. The cars were stenciled as "rebuilt" cars, and I examined their underframes "back in the day" and found they didn't resemble the PS built H34-H34C cars at all, leading me to suspect that their channels might have also come from scrapped hopper cars. The PRR was actually sort of slow to adopt roller bearing trucks, they stayed with plain bearings well into the 1960's. But they did experiments with roller bearing as early as the 1930's with a train of H21A Hopper cars so equipped. Besides the H33 use of roller bearings I think some of the H30A covered hopper, also built in the early 1950's, had them. It would seem that the added initial cost of roller bearing trucks would be offset by the reduced labor costs of repacking and oiling plain bearing trucks at some point. Rich Burg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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As long as the cars stayed online, then you're probably correct. The hot issue in the 1950's was
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getting your cars back, once someone found out they had roller bearings... they'd go offline and never come back (or so it was perceived). That means someone else got the return on your investment. ----- Original Message -----
From: cinderandeight@... It would seem that the added initial cost of roller bearing trucks would be offset by the reduced labor costs of repacking and oiling plain bearing trucks at some point. Rich Burg |
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