covered Hoppers


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 19, 2013, at 7:38 AM, soolinehistory <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., caboose9792@... wrote:

That would be odd given the railroads were happily equipping there
passenger equipment since the 30's with roller bearings, particularly the
lightweight cars, and they would become mandatory on new construction in 1966 on
freight cars.

Mark Rickert


In a message dated 3/18/2013 5:07:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
destorzek@... writes:

That's Ninties-think. Back in the fifties, roller bearings were still
pretty much an unknown quantity.
OK, I concede, not nineties-think, but not the prevailing attitude during the fifties either, at least not until after 1954, when Timken introduced their AP "All Purpose" lubricated-for-life and sealed bearing. This finally prompted the AAR to recommend them for use on interchange freight cars in 1956.

Yeah, roller bearings had been used in railroad applications since the thirties, but were typically used in applications where the equipment was more or less captive; locomotives and passenger cars. In their initial form, roller bearings required periodic oil changes, done to a level of cleanliness totally foreign to a railroad RIP track.

Aside from the feeling that "other roads" would garner all the benefits of the expensive bearings, I can't help but wonder if there were also concerns about the level of maintenance they would receive on foreign roads.
I'm late coming to this discussion, having been on the road for several days, but I have to chip in here, having spent a lot of time lately studying the history of freight car truck development. Everything Dennis says is (as usual) exactly right. Looking at the 1950s from the perspective of the 21st century is almost certain to distort one's understanding. Installing roller bearings on cars in captive service (e.g., almost all passenger cars) was one thing; the railroad could make provisions to insure that they were properly maintained. Sending roller-bearing-equipped cars off-line in interchange was an entirely different matter, especially with no control over where they went or how long they would be gone.

I've been told that when roller-bearing-equpped UP DLS stock cars went off-line briefly, as they occasionally did, they sometimes came back with their journal boxes full of solid-bearing journal oil, as pouring oil indiscriminately into journal boxes was what carmen routinely did on every car that came past them. Painting the journal box covers aluminum on what were otherwise standard AAR freight car trucks was meaningless except to the UP's own employees (and probably meaningless to many of them unless they worked on the LA&SL and were involved in DLS service).

There were good, practical reasons (apart from cost) why the railroads were reluctant to adopt roller bearings on freight cars in interchange until the growing number of free-roaming100 ton covered hoppers forced the issue.

Richard Hendrickson


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., caboose9792@... wrote:

That would be odd given the railroads were happily equipping there
passenger equipment since the 30's with roller bearings, particularly the
lightweight cars, and they would become mandatory on new construction in 1966 on
freight cars.

Mark Rickert


In a message dated 3/18/2013 5:07:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
destorzek@... writes:

That's Ninties-think. Back in the fifties, roller bearings were still
pretty much an unknown quantity.

OK, I concede, not nineties-think, but not the prevailing attitude during the fifties either, at least not until after 1954, when Timken introduced their AP "All Purpose" lubricated-for-life and sealed bearing. This finally prompted the AAR to recommend them for use on interchange freight cars in 1956.

Yeah, roller bearings had been used in railroad applications since the thirties, but were typically used in applications where the equipment was more or less captive; locomotives and passenger cars. In their initial form, roller bearings required periodic oil changes, done to a level of cleanliness totally foreign to a railroad RIP track. Model Die Casting used to make an HO scale model of a freight (or express box) truck equipped with oil lubricated roller bearings, but I don't know if it is still available.

Aside from the feeling that "other roads" would garner all the benefits of the expensive bearings, I can't help but wonder if there were also concerns about the level of maintenance they would receive on foreign roads. In recent years, improper maintenance of the bearings on a private owner passenger cars has caused at least one road to refuse to handle not only anything without roller bearings, but anything without SEALED roller bearings.

Dennis


caboose9792@...
 

That would be odd given the railroads were happily equipping there
passenger equipment since the 30's with roller bearings, particularly the
lightweight cars, and they would become mandatory on new construction in 1966 on
freight cars.

Mark Rickert

In a message dated 3/18/2013 5:07:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
destorzek@... writes:

That's Ninties-think. Back in the fifties, roller bearings were still
pretty much an unknown quantity.

Savings from no need to re-pack, yes, but not from no need to oil, because
the oiling equipment still needed to be on the hump approaches, and the
carmen still need to carry oil down the train during inspection because of
the cars not equipped with roller bearings, which in 1959 was still most of
them.
Until the introduction of the Timken AP sealed bearing in 1954, roller
bearings also needed to have their oil checked, but the proper oil was
different from the common "journal oil", so there was always a question if these
expensive bearings would be serviced properly on foreign roads.

Dennis


Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Dennis,

Normally I would not disagree with you, but, roller bearings were a known quantity starting in the late 1930's, as were the problems with solid bearings. After World War II, Timken, Hyatt and SKF all started the push to equip freight cars with roller bearings. Sure, cost was an issue, but the primary resistance was, as I also mentioned, due to the feeling that most railroads were unwilling to spend money on roller bearings when most of the cost advantages would be recovered by other roads. Some roads installed roller bearings on captive service cars (UP installing them on stock cars in the late 1950's comes to mind). Gradually, more and more cars started showing up sporting roller bearings in the 1960's and 1970's, and the ICC ruling pretty


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 3:06 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers


 


--- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:

Not only those savings, Rich, but the savings from a much reduced risk of hotboxes and derailments that were caused by hotboxes.


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA
That's Ninties-think. Back in the fifties, roller bearings were still pretty much an unknown quantity.

Savings from no need to re-pack, yes, but not from no need to oil, because the oiling equipment still needed to be on the hump approaches, and the carmen still need to carry oil down the train during inspection because of the cars not equipped with roller bearings, which in 1959 was still most of them.
Until the introduction of the Timken AP sealed bearing in 1954, roller bearings also needed to have their oil checked, but the proper oil was different from the common "journal oil", so there was always a question if these expensive bearings would be serviced properly on foreign roads.

Dennis


soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:

Not only those savings, Rich, but the savings from a much reduced risk of hotboxes and derailments that were caused by hotboxes.


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA
That's Ninties-think. Back in the fifties, roller bearings were still pretty much an unknown quantity.

Savings from no need to re-pack, yes, but not from no need to oil, because the oiling equipment still needed to be on the hump approaches, and the carmen still need to carry oil down the train during inspection because of the cars not equipped with roller bearings, which in 1959 was still most of them.
Until the introduction of the Timken AP sealed bearing in 1954, roller bearings also needed to have their oil checked, but the proper oil was different from the common "journal oil", so there was always a question if these expensive bearings would be serviced properly on foreign roads.

Dennis


Tim O'Connor
 

As long as the cars stayed online, then you're probably correct. The hot issue in the 1950's was
getting your cars back, once someone found out they had roller bearings... they'd go offline and
never come back (or so it was perceived). That means someone else got the return on your
investment.

----- Original Message -----
From: cinderandeight@...

It would seem that the added initial cost of roller bearing trucks
would be offset by the reduced labor costs of repacking and oiling plain
bearing trucks at some point.
Rich Burg


Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Not only those savings, Rich, but the savings from a much reduced risk of hotboxes and derailments that were caused by hotboxes.


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: "cinderandeight@..." <cinderandeight@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 12:13 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers


 
Greg,
I agree. The PRR repair instruction sheets are full of examples of what
to keep from scrapped cars, and where to reuse the items. In the case of
H34D, the PS covered hopper bodies were assembled from kits in the PRR shops,
and I think most of the appliances came from scrapped cars. The cars were
stenciled as "rebuilt" cars, and I examined their underframes "back in the
day" and found they didn't resemble the PS built H34-H34C cars at all,
leading me to suspect that their channels might have also come from scrapped
hopper cars.
The PRR was actually sort of slow to adopt roller bearing trucks, they
stayed with plain bearings well into the 1960's. But they did experiments
with roller bearing as early as the 1930's with a train of H21A Hopper cars so
equipped. Besides the H33 use of roller bearings I think some of the H30A
covered hopper, also built in the early 1950's, had them.
It would seem that the added initial cost of roller bearing trucks
would be offset by the reduced labor costs of repacking and oiling plain
bearing trucks at some point.
Rich Burg

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


cinderandeight@...
 

Greg,
I agree. The PRR repair instruction sheets are full of examples of what
to keep from scrapped cars, and where to reuse the items. In the case of
H34D, the PS covered hopper bodies were assembled from kits in the PRR shops,
and I think most of the appliances came from scrapped cars. The cars were
stenciled as "rebuilt" cars, and I examined their underframes "back in the
day" and found they didn't resemble the PS built H34-H34C cars at all,
leading me to suspect that their channels might have also come from scrapped
hopper cars.
The PRR was actually sort of slow to adopt roller bearing trucks, they
stayed with plain bearings well into the 1960's. But they did experiments
with roller bearing as early as the 1930's with a train of H21A Hopper cars so
equipped. Besides the H33 use of roller bearings I think some of the H30A
covered hopper, also built in the early 1950's, had them.
It would seem that the added initial cost of roller bearing trucks
would be offset by the reduced labor costs of repacking and oiling plain
bearing trucks at some point.
Rich Burg


Greg Martin
 

Bill you wrote:

Greg,

Actually what I'm going to say is "Dang! I didn't know that..." I really
wasn't aware (but I am not surprised) that the Pennsy was that much ahead of
the curve regarding roller bearings on freight cars. As you know, most
roads resisted roller bearings for the main reason that they felt that other
roads would reap the benefits while they paid for the premium bearings.
Maybe the PRR felt that these cars would be in mostly captive service... I know
that I never saw one (except on a neighbor's Lionel train set).


Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA

Bill,

Actually, I might not say that as the PRR was one of the most frugal
railroads I have ever known. You would think that they would have extended the
practice on the H34(and sub classes)program and by the time they got to the
H34d that were built at the company shops rode on reused Crown Trucks.
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle... 3^)

Greg Martin


Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean


Bruce Smith
 

John,

Um, carbon black was not a dense bulk proiduct and hence the carbon black LOs were some of the largest covered hoppers of the WWII era.

regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of John Sykes [John.Sykes@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:31 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers

Bill:

Yes, I knew that when I was writing my reply. Point is, before the 1960's covered hoppers were almost always used for dense, bulk products such as cement, lime, fertilizers, kaolin, carbon black and locomotive sand (dried).

In fact most boxcars had markings on the inside walls showing how deep different grains or other agricultural products (flour) could be loaded without exceeding the weight limit of the car. Since railroads had so many boxcars (in some cases, over 50% of their freight car fleets) and the need for agricultural use was usually limited to the autumn, there was no big impetus to develop special purpose cars for this service. Instead, you had things like Signode grain doors and hatches in the roofs added to standard box cars.

It was the increase in load limits and the demise in the standard house cars of the late 1960's due to containerization that led to development of special-purpose covered hoppers, although experimentation with such cars started as early as the 1940's at least.

-- John

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:

Sorry, John, but while what you are talking about was true for covered hoppers from the mid 60's and later, Bill's question refers to cars that had a date of 1949 and in particular they are Kato two-bay ACF 70 ton hoppers. Four and five bay covered hoppers (with a few exceptions like PRR's H31 and 32 classes) were relatively unknown. Grain was universally carried in 40' boxcars (and would continue to be carried in boxcars until the late 1960's). Likewise, trough hatches, pneumatic outlet gates and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era.Â


Â
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: John Sykes <John.Sykes@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 2:20 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers


Â
Au contraire.

First of all the size of the car. Two or three bay covered hoppers carry high density products such as cement, kaolin or lime (or in the good old days, carbon black). Four and five bay covered hoppers carry lighter materials such as plastic pellets, grain or flour. The cars carrying powdery or plastic products usually have circular loading hatches and either pneumatic or gravity outlet gates (more often, pneumatic). Grain cars have long loading hatches and have gravity outlets. Rule of thumb if you are modeling - substance that are powdery or blown into the car = circular hatches, grain(which doesn't flow that well) = long trouths. By the same token - substances that are unloaded pneumatically (again, powdery or light weight materials) = obviously, pneumatic outlets. Things that flow into underground hoppers when unloading(wheat, corn) = sliding outlet gates.

Now, what is in what car? If you buy a decorated car, usually RR owned cars (e.g., UPRR)or cars labeled for some agricultural owner (e.g., Wagner Mills, ADM, Cargill) are grain (some exceptions), if labeled for something like Dow, or duPont, probably plastic (although duPont also made titanium dioxide for paint & paper making - which is a high density powder material). I think most GATX, UTLX and other leased cars are used for plastic pellets, but some may be used for grain. If it is labeled Lone Star or CEMEX it is for cement.

-- John

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@> wrote:

Bill,

Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars. It was most likely that these cars carried cement.

As for specific hardware, I don't know that any specific hardware could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried.

Bill Daniels

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "BillM" <fecbill@> wrote:

How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.

Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.

Thank you
Bill Michael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Greg,

Actually what I'm going to say is "Dang! I didn't know that..." I really wasn't aware (but I am not surprised) that the Pennsy was that much ahead of the curve regarding roller bearings on freight cars. As you know, most roads resisted roller bearings for the main reason that they felt that other roads would reap the benefits while they paid for the premium bearings. Maybe the PRR felt that these cars would be in mostly captive service... I know that I never saw one (except on a neighbor's Lionel train set).


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: "tgregmrtn@..." <tgregmrtn@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers


 
Bill writes:
...and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were
decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era.


Bill.

You are going to say, "dang-it, I know that" when I remind you that the
PRR shop built H33's were delivered with roller bearing journals in their
trucks.

Greg Martin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Greg Martin
 

John.

Most products like this shipped on a per-hundred weight so other than the
railroads protecting their assets by having a higher tariff on some car
types it really didn't mater as the commodity was programmed to hit Chicago at
the same price... Even if it wasn't going there.
Greg Martin

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean

In a message dated 3/17/2013 7:31:30 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
John.Sykes@... writes:




Bill:

Yes, I knew that when I was writing my reply. Point is, before the 1960's
covered hoppers were almost always used for dense, bulk products such as
cement, lime, fertilizers, kaolin, carbon black and locomotive sand (dried).

In fact most boxcars had markings on the inside walls showing how deep
different grains or other agricultural products (flour) could be loaded
without exceeding the weight limit of the car. Since railroads had so many
boxcars (in some cases, over 50% of their freight car fleets) and the need for
agricultural use was usually limited to the autumn, there was no big impetus
to develop special purpose cars for this service. Instead, you had things
like Signode grain doors and hatches in the roofs added to standard box cars.

It was the increase in load limits and the demise in the standard house
cars of the late 1960's due to containerization that led to development of
special-purpose covered hoppers, although experimentation with such cars
started as early as the 1940's at least.

-- John

--- In _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) , Bill
Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:

Sorry, John, but while what you are talking about was true for covered
hoppers from the mid 60's and later, Bill's question refers to cars that had
a date of 1949 and in particular they are Kato two-bay ACF 70 ton hoppers.
Four and five bay covered hoppers (with a few exceptions like PRR's H31
and 32 classes) were relatively unknown. Grain was universally carried in 40'
boxcars (and would continue to be carried in boxcars until the late
1960's). Likewise, trough hatches, pneumatic outlet gates and other modern
features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were decades in the future. My
comments refer to cars of that long-gone era.Â


Â
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: John Sykes <John.Sykes@...>
To: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 2:20 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers


Â
Au contraire.

First of all the size of the car. Two or three bay covered hoppers carry
high density products such as cement, kaolin or lime (or in the good old
days, carbon black). Four and five bay covered hoppers carry lighter
materials such as plastic pellets, grain or flour. The cars carrying powdery or
plastic products usually have circular loading hatches and either pneumatic or
gravity outlet gates (more often, pneumatic). Grain cars have long loading
hatches and have gravity outlets. Rule of thumb if you are modeling -
substance that are powdery or blown into the car = circular hatches,
grain(which doesn't flow that well) = long trouths. By the same token - substances
that are unloaded pneumatically (again, powdery or light weight materials) =
obviously, pneumatic outlets. Things that flow into underground hoppers
when unloading(wheat, corn) = sliding outlet gates.

Now, what is in what car? If you buy a decorated car, usually RR owned
cars (e.g., UPRR)or cars labeled for some agricultural owner (e.g., Wagner
Mills, ADM, Cargill) are grain (some exceptions), if labeled for something
like Dow, or duPont, probably plastic (although duPont also made titanium
dioxide for paint & paper making - which is a high density powder material).
I think most GATX, UTLX and other leased cars are used for plastic pellets,
but some may be used for grain. If it is labeled Lone Star or CEMEX it is
for cement.

-- John

--- In _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) , Bill
Daniels <billinsf@> wrote:

Bill,
> Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact
that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the
early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the
advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars.
It was most likely that these cars carried cement.

As for specific hardware, I don't know that any specific hardware
could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried.

Bill Daniels

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "BillM" <fecbill@> wrote:

How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for
cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning
physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as
opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.

Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers
lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.

Thank you
Bill Michael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


rwitt_2000
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Ken" <kobrien1600@...> wrote:

The weights, car and hatch dimensions are similar to Lacakawanna
covered hoppers purchased from AC&F in 1950-53. And they were cement
haulers. F&C has kits for these cars.

Ken

--- In STMFC@..., "Allen Cain" allencain@ wrote:

I just checked the January 1954 ORER (do not have an earlier one)
and all of
the covered hoppers owned by the Milwaukee Road were 29 ft 3 in long
but had
70 Ton capacity. This would support that they were intended for
carrying
high density loads such as cement. And the notes indicated that
most, if
not all had eight 3 ft by 3 ft square doors on the roof. Now I am
NOT a
Milwaukee road expert by any stretch of the imagination and am
offering this
for consideration only and I yield to the experts.



Allen Cain
We had a similar discussion about pre-1960 covered hoppers about a month
ago starting with message # 114624.

114624 2 bay covered hoppers & auto and DD boxcars in grain service
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/message/114624>

Regards,

Bob Witt


Greg Martin
 

Bill writes:
...and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were
decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era.


Bill.

You are going to say, "dang-it, I know that" when I remind you that the
PRR shop built H33's were delivered with roller bearing journals in their
trucks.

Greg Martin


Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

John,

I would agree with your comments, but it was the Southern's Big John covered hopper along with changes in rate structures in the 60's that led to the change-over to covered hoppers from boxcars.

And, by then, the former "standard" 40' boxcar was becoming a thing of the past... although large fleets of them lingered on into the 1970's. Then the 40 year rule started kicking in and older cars disappeared.


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: John Sykes <John.Sykes@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 7:31 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers


 
Bill:

Yes, I knew that when I was writing my reply. Point is, before the 1960's covered hoppers were almost always used for dense, bulk products such as cement, lime, fertilizers, kaolin, carbon black and locomotive sand (dried).

In fact most boxcars had markings on the inside walls showing how deep different grains or other agricultural products (flour) could be loaded without exceeding the weight limit of the car. Since railroads had so many boxcars (in some cases, over 50% of their freight car fleets) and the need for agricultural use was usually limited to the autumn, there was no big impetus to develop special purpose cars for this service. Instead, you had things like Signode grain doors and hatches in the roofs added to standard box cars.

It was the increase in load limits and the demise in the standard house cars of the late 1960's due to containerization that led to development of special-purpose covered hoppers, although experimentation with such cars started as early as the 1940's at least.

-- John

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:

Sorry, John, but while what you are talking about was true for covered hoppers from the mid 60's and later, Bill's question refers to cars that had a date of 1949 and in particular they are Kato two-bay ACF 70 ton hoppers. Four and five bay covered hoppers (with a few exceptions like PRR's H31 and 32 classes) were relatively unknown. Grain was universally carried in 40' boxcars (and would continue to be carried in boxcars until the late 1960's). Likewise, trough hatches, pneumatic outlet gates and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era. 


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: John Sykes <John.Sykes@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 2:20 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers


 
Au contraire.

First of all the size of the car. Two or three bay covered hoppers carry high density products such as cement, kaolin or lime (or in the good old days, carbon black). Four and five bay covered hoppers carry lighter materials such as plastic pellets, grain or flour. The cars carrying powdery or plastic products usually have circular loading hatches and either pneumatic or gravity outlet gates (more often, pneumatic). Grain cars have long loading hatches and have gravity outlets. Rule of thumb if you are modeling - substance that are powdery or blown into the car = circular hatches, grain(which doesn't flow that well) = long trouths. By the same token - substances that are unloaded pneumatically (again, powdery or light weight materials) = obviously, pneumatic outlets. Things that flow into underground hoppers when unloading(wheat, corn) = sliding outlet gates.

Now, what is in what car? If you buy a decorated car, usually RR owned cars (e.g., UPRR)or cars labeled for some agricultural owner (e.g., Wagner Mills, ADM, Cargill) are grain (some exceptions), if labeled for something like Dow, or duPont, probably plastic (although duPont also made titanium dioxide for paint & paper making - which is a high density powder material). I think most GATX, UTLX and other leased cars are used for plastic pellets, but some may be used for grain. If it is labeled Lone Star or CEMEX it is for cement.

-- John

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@> wrote:

Bill,

Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars. It was most likely that these cars carried cement.

As for specific hardware, I don't know that any specific hardware could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried.

Bill Daniels

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "BillM" <fecbill@> wrote:

How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.

Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.

Thank you
Bill Michael










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Ken O'Brien
 

The weights, car and hatch dimensions are similar to Lacakawanna covered hoppers purchased from AC&F in 1950-53. And they were cement haulers. F&C has kits for these cars.

Ken

--- In STMFC@..., "Allen Cain" <allencain@...> wrote:

I just checked the January 1954 ORER (do not have an earlier one) and all of
the covered hoppers owned by the Milwaukee Road were 29 ft 3 in long but had
70 Ton capacity. This would support that they were intended for carrying
high density loads such as cement. And the notes indicated that most, if
not all had eight 3 ft by 3 ft square doors on the roof. Now I am NOT a
Milwaukee road expert by any stretch of the imagination and am offering this
for consideration only and I yield to the experts.



Allen Cain





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


John
 

Bill:

Yes, I knew that when I was writing my reply. Point is, before the 1960's covered hoppers were almost always used for dense, bulk products such as cement, lime, fertilizers, kaolin, carbon black and locomotive sand (dried).

In fact most boxcars had markings on the inside walls showing how deep different grains or other agricultural products (flour) could be loaded without exceeding the weight limit of the car. Since railroads had so many boxcars (in some cases, over 50% of their freight car fleets) and the need for agricultural use was usually limited to the autumn, there was no big impetus to develop special purpose cars for this service. Instead, you had things like Signode grain doors and hatches in the roofs added to standard box cars.

It was the increase in load limits and the demise in the standard house cars of the late 1960's due to containerization that led to development of special-purpose covered hoppers, although experimentation with such cars started as early as the 1940's at least.

-- John

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:

Sorry, John, but while what you are talking about was true for covered hoppers from the mid 60's and later, Bill's question refers to cars that had a date of 1949 and in particular they are Kato two-bay ACF 70 ton hoppers. Four and five bay covered hoppers (with a few exceptions like PRR's H31 and 32 classes) were relatively unknown. Grain was universally carried in 40' boxcars (and would continue to be carried in boxcars until the late 1960's). Likewise, trough hatches, pneumatic outlet gates and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era. 


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: John Sykes <John.Sykes@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 2:20 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers


 
Au contraire.

First of all the size of the car. Two or three bay covered hoppers carry high density products such as cement, kaolin or lime (or in the good old days, carbon black). Four and five bay covered hoppers carry lighter materials such as plastic pellets, grain or flour. The cars carrying powdery or plastic products usually have circular loading hatches and either pneumatic or gravity outlet gates (more often, pneumatic). Grain cars have long loading hatches and have gravity outlets. Rule of thumb if you are modeling - substance that are powdery or blown into the car = circular hatches, grain(which doesn't flow that well) = long trouths. By the same token - substances that are unloaded pneumatically (again, powdery or light weight materials) = obviously, pneumatic outlets. Things that flow into underground hoppers when unloading(wheat, corn) = sliding outlet gates.

Now, what is in what car? If you buy a decorated car, usually RR owned cars (e.g., UPRR)or cars labeled for some agricultural owner (e.g., Wagner Mills, ADM, Cargill) are grain (some exceptions), if labeled for something like Dow, or duPont, probably plastic (although duPont also made titanium dioxide for paint & paper making - which is a high density powder material). I think most GATX, UTLX and other leased cars are used for plastic pellets, but some may be used for grain. If it is labeled Lone Star or CEMEX it is for cement.

-- John

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@> wrote:

Bill,

Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars. It was most likely that these cars carried cement.

As for specific hardware, I don't know that any specific hardware could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried.

Bill Daniels

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "BillM" <fecbill@> wrote:

How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.

Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.

Thank you
Bill Michael








Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

While researching for the CGW Color Guide I was handed a list of covered hopper assignments. The CGW covered hoppers are of the same type and same age as those in Bill Michaels original question.

While the cars in a given series were identical, they were assigned to a specific service AND a specific loading point by car number. The cars would have been loaded at the same point repeatedly and unloaded wherever they were sent. Weathering would eventually become the only clue to the assigned service if there was any clue at all. For those cars painted black and assigned to cement service the weathering pattern should be obvious.

These short, 70-ton capacity, 2-bay covered hoppers were assigned to service hauling the aforementioned cement, fertilizer, lime and meal. The lime weathering might resemble the cement weathering.

The M&StL received its first (and only) grain hoppers in 1958 from Pullman-Standard. Imagine taking your Kato car and stretching it to a 3-bay configuration and you have the M&StL's grain hoppers. These were certainly very small cars by today's standards. The M&StL was rarely an innovator so I imagine some other railroads also had these grain hoppers before the M&StL

In the M&StL's case, cement hoppers were stenciled for cement service and the grain hoppers for grain service but this was for advertising, not to instruct crews doing the switching.

Gene Green


Allen Cain <allencain@...>
 

I just checked the January 1954 ORER (do not have an earlier one) and all of
the covered hoppers owned by the Milwaukee Road were 29 ft 3 in long but had
70 Ton capacity. This would support that they were intended for carrying
high density loads such as cement. And the notes indicated that most, if
not all had eight 3 ft by 3 ft square doors on the roof. Now I am NOT a
Milwaukee road expert by any stretch of the imagination and am offering this
for consideration only and I yield to the experts.



Allen Cain


Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Sorry, John, but while what you are talking about was true for covered hoppers from the mid 60's and later, Bill's question refers to cars that had a date of 1949 and in particular they are Kato two-bay ACF 70 ton hoppers. Four and five bay covered hoppers (with a few exceptions like PRR's H31 and 32 classes) were relatively unknown. Grain was universally carried in 40' boxcars (and would continue to be carried in boxcars until the late 1960's). Likewise, trough hatches, pneumatic outlet gates and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era. 


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: John Sykes <John.Sykes@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 2:20 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers


 
Au contraire.

First of all the size of the car. Two or three bay covered hoppers carry high density products such as cement, kaolin or lime (or in the good old days, carbon black). Four and five bay covered hoppers carry lighter materials such as plastic pellets, grain or flour. The cars carrying powdery or plastic products usually have circular loading hatches and either pneumatic or gravity outlet gates (more often, pneumatic). Grain cars have long loading hatches and have gravity outlets. Rule of thumb if you are modeling - substance that are powdery or blown into the car = circular hatches, grain(which doesn't flow that well) = long trouths. By the same token - substances that are unloaded pneumatically (again, powdery or light weight materials) = obviously, pneumatic outlets. Things that flow into underground hoppers when unloading(wheat, corn) = sliding outlet gates.

Now, what is in what car? If you buy a decorated car, usually RR owned cars (e.g., UPRR)or cars labeled for some agricultural owner (e.g., Wagner Mills, ADM, Cargill) are grain (some exceptions), if labeled for something like Dow, or duPont, probably plastic (although duPont also made titanium dioxide for paint & paper making - which is a high density powder material). I think most GATX, UTLX and other leased cars are used for plastic pellets, but some may be used for grain. If it is labeled Lone Star or CEMEX it is for cement.

-- John

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:

Bill,

Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars. It was most likely that these cars carried cement.

As for specific hardware, I don't know that any specific hardware could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried.

Bill Daniels

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "BillM" <fecbill@...> wrote:

How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.

Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.

Thank you
Bill Michael


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